The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (9 Viewers)

[SkyblueBazza]

Tory

Can't you remember how to actually switch the internet off or sonething? Or is the music so bad you need SBT to distract you from it? Lol

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[martcov]

some of those proposed a separate opt-out just for London

That sentiment is not new. When I lived in London in the early eighties they mentioned the „cow and a goat‘ version of the opt out for London. Everyone above Watford Gap to get a cow and a goat, and London and the South East to go it alone.

A joke of course, but showed how some saw things.

 

[Astute]

Not a Tory.
Time spent involved working with politicians (of all political hues) at the beginning of my career put me off party politics. If you do back as far as gmk then you'll remember some of the stories.
Where do we go now? Somewhere we'll end up by default. Probably a fudge that nobody really wants but not enough really object to. Parliament hasn't a clue where we are going but really don't want a 2nd referendum in-out unless they can guarantee a clear result. Possibility of a people's vote on leave options more likely as politicians can shift the blame away from themselves and back onto the electorate.
Concern remains where we will end up. Going to be large angry sections of the voting public who will feel betrayed whichever way it goes. Platitudes will come from politicians about rebuilding trust which has been in consistent decline for many years anyway.
Idealistically the role of how Govt should be reexamined - hopefully to include a democratic second House, the use of the whipping system and more open govt as a whole. Fat chance.

Exactly how I see it.

Another referendum? As I have said before it would cause many problems without solving a lot. Would we call it a final result whatever happens? What if it is leave again? What if it was just by thousands instead of a large number as it was? Not talking about percentages here. A 4% difference is large or small depending on which way you want to see it. Would we still leave without a deal if nothing could be agreed?

How about if remain won but by a small amount? The 48% from last time will be happy but what about everyone else? It would split the country. Because the numbers in Scotland and Ireland made the numbers in England look much closer. If you counted it as voting areas leave won 270 against 129. This is because the vast majority of areas in England voted leave. Scotland and Ireland which are much smaller were vastly remain. And the highest percentage of votes cast were in England closely followed by Wales. 15 million out of 28 million voted leave in England.

So what is left? As I have been saying I can't see the May deal or leave without a deal happening at all. The problem is that the England vote is important to the politicians. It is what decides who rules the UK. The only time that votes from Wales, Ireland and Scotland count is when they vote Tory or Labour. Other than that it is when a coalition is made with a party from one of those countries. And it isn't that often.

This is why the MP's can't or won't vote an alternative through. It could easily finish a party for many years if not forever. Look at the LibDems after jumping into bed with the Tories. So we will struggle to get a majority for anything.

But they won't let the May deal through as it is a mash of everything but goes against everything in a way. A no deal would be harmful so they won't let it happen. So they need a way to stop it without looking as though they are going against the electorate.

A long extension with the EU and negotiations to finally start is the best way out of this mess. Negotiations will include close ties. This will mean that even if we do end up leaving the EU most people won't notice any difference. We need the EU. The EU needs us. I'm not bothered what anyone says. It is the truth. Nobody wants untold job losses throughout the UK and EU when it can be stopped.

 

[martcov]

Exactly how I see it.

Another referendum? As I have said before it would cause many problems without solving a lot. Would we call it a final result whatever happens? What if it is leave again? What if it was just by thousands instead of a large number as it was? Not talking about percentages here. A 4% difference is large or small depending on which way you want to see it. Would we still leave without a deal if nothing could be agreed?

How about if remain won but by a small amount? The 48% from last time will be happy but what about everyone else? It would split the country. Because the numbers in Scotland and Ireland made the numbers in England look much closer. If you counted it as voting areas leave won 270 against 129. This is because the vast majority of areas in England voted leave. Scotland and Ireland which are much smaller were vastly remain. And the highest percentage of votes cast were in England closely followed by Wales. 15 million out of 28 million voted leave in England.

So what is left? As I have been saying I can't see the May deal or leave without a deal happening at all. The problem is that the England vote is important to the politicians. It is what decides who rules the UK. The only time that votes from Wales, Ireland and Scotland count is when they vote Tory or Labour. Other than that it is when a coalition is made with a party from one of those countries. And it isn't that often.

This is why the MP's can't or won't vote an alternative through. It could easily finish a party for many years if not forever. Look at the LibDems after jumping into bed with the Tories. So we will struggle to get a majority for anything.

But they won't let the May deal through as it is a mash of everything but goes against everything in a way. A no deal would be harmful so they won't let it happen. So they need a way to stop it without looking as though they are going against the electorate.

A long extension with the EU and negotiations to finally start is the best way out of this mess. Negotiations will include close ties. This will mean that even if we do end up leaving the EU most people won't notice any difference. We need the EU. The EU needs us. I'm not bothered what anyone says. It is the truth. Nobody wants untold job losses throughout the UK and EU when it can be stopped.

We have never had a government coalition with Welsh or Scottish nationalists.

You claim that we should negotiate until most people won’t notice any difference that we’ve left.

Why leave then?

It is crazy. We are geographically a part of Europe, our biggest trading partner is the EU which is factually our home market. We get to take part in the decision making of the EU. No, we don’t tell them what to do, sorry, it’s not our empire, but we do share some of our sovereignty with them, as they do with us.

To leave that for some possible future trade deals, or to avoid such things as regulations on food standards, or work place conditions because they cost employers more, is literally ridiculous.

 

[martcov]

Exactly how I see it.

Another referendum? As I have said before it would cause many problems without solving a lot. Would we call it a final result whatever happens? What if it is leave again? What if it was just by thousands instead of a large number as it was? Not talking about percentages here. A 4% difference is large or small depending on which way you want to see it. Would we still leave without a deal if nothing could be agreed?

How about if remain won but by a small amount? The 48% from last time will be happy but what about everyone else? It would split the country. Because the numbers in Scotland and Ireland made the numbers in England look much closer. If you counted it as voting areas leave won 270 against 129. This is because the vast majority of areas in England voted leave. Scotland and Ireland which are much smaller were vastly remain. And the highest percentage of votes cast were in England closely followed by Wales. 15 million out of 28 million voted leave in England.

So what is left? As I have been saying I can't see the May deal or leave without a deal happening at all. The problem is that the England vote is important to the politicians. It is what decides who rules the UK. The only time that votes from Wales, Ireland and Scotland count is when they vote Tory or Labour. Other than that it is when a coalition is made with a party from one of those countries. And it isn't that often.

This is why the MP's can't or won't vote an alternative through. It could easily finish a party for many years if not forever. Look at the LibDems after jumping into bed with the Tories. So we will struggle to get a majority for anything.

But they won't let the May deal through as it is a mash of everything but goes against everything in a way. A no deal would be harmful so they won't let it happen. So they need a way to stop it without looking as though they are going against the electorate.

A long extension with the EU and negotiations to finally start is the best way out of this mess. Negotiations will include close ties. This will mean that even if we do end up leaving the EU most people won't notice any difference. We need the EU. The EU needs us. I'm not bothered what anyone says. It is the truth. Nobody wants untold job losses throughout the UK and EU when it can be stopped.

As to splitting the country. It is. As to people taking to the streets. They are. See how many turn out today in London.

 

[Astute]

We have never had a government coalition with Welsh or Scottish nationalists.

You claim that we should negotiate until most people won’t notice any difference that we’ve left.

Why leave then?

It is crazy. We are geographically a part of Europe, our biggest trading partner is the EU which is factually our home market. We get to take part in the decision making of the EU. No, we don’t tell them what to do, sorry, it’s not our empire, but we do share some of our sovereignty with them, as they do with us.

To leave that for some possible future trade deals, or to avoid such things as regulations on food standards, or work place conditions because they cost employers more, is literally ridiculous.

Why do you have to try and maje it look as though I am totally wrong whilst agreeing with what I say? Have had enough of it.

Why not add about a coalition with the Irish? Yes we have one now.

I explained why negotiating out of this mess is maybe the best way forward. You don't question the facts as you can't. But you have to make a statement.

I don't agree with leaving. I don't want us to leave. But at least I understand what is going on. How many other than myself call it last week as it wasn't between May deal or no deal? I am not blind to what is happening. I am not expecting the impossible to happen because it is what I want.

But I will be straight with you. Your constant twisting of words and truth joined with insults is really pissing me off now. If you want to have a debate I will try one more final time. Otherwise I will do what I should have done ages ago and totally ignore you. You don't want to listen. You don't want to think outside the box. You don't seem to comprehend the situation in England.

Older people are much more likely to vote. Older people want out of the EU. The MP's want us to remain in the EU. But they don't want to totally upset the electorate. Which part of this doesn't your brain comprehend?

 

[Astute]

As to splitting the country. It is. As to people taking to the streets. They are. See how many turn out today in London.

Leavers don't have a reason yet to start protests. That would most probably happen if parliament just said we are exiting Brexit.

Are you after total anarchy?

 

[Grendel]

As to splitting the country. It is. As to people taking to the streets. They are. See how many turn out today in London.

Who cares how many turn out? A screechy mob of anarchists and people wanting a day out on the piss - it means nothing

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Who cares how many turn out? A screechy mob of anarchists and people wanting a day out on the piss - it means nothing

Laughable generalisation.

 

[tisza]

Can't you remember how to actually switch the internet off or sonething? Or is the music so bad you need SBT to distract you from it? Lol

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Tbf think he'd been drinking his username. Late night Internet spree after some beers.

 

[Sick Boy]

Why do you have to try and maje it look as though I am totally wrong whilst agreeing with what I say? Have had enough of it.

Why not add about a coalition with the Irish? Yes we have one now.

I explained why negotiating out of this mess is maybe the best way forward. You don't question the facts as you can't. But you have to make a statement.

I don't agree with leaving. I don't want us to leave. But at least I understand what is going on. How many other than myself call it last week as it wasn't between May deal or no deal? I am not blind to what is happening. I am not expecting the impossible to happen because it is what I want.

But I will be straight with you. Your constant twisting of words and truth joined with insults is really pissing me off now. If you want to have a debate I will try one more final time. Otherwise I will do what I should have done ages ago and totally ignore you. You don't want to listen. You don't want to think outside the box. You don't seem to comprehend the situation in England.

Older people are much more likely to vote. Older people want out of the EU. The MP's want us to remain in the EU. But they don't want to totally upset the electorate. Which part of this doesn't your brain comprehend?

He mentioned nationalists, the DUP are not Irish nationalists.

 

[martcov]

Who cares how many turn out? A screechy mob of anarchists and people wanting a day out on the piss - it means nothing

No, that is a Goddard style yellow vest rally. I am on a remain event.

 

[Deleted member 7943]

The petitions , the rallies etc mean absolutely zero , you could have 10 million people march on Westminster demanding article 50 Be revoked , fact is 17 million people voted leave .

I also hear the nonsense argument that a few people who voted leave are now dead And the younger generation who couldn’t vote would now vote remain .

Forgetting that voting trends PROVE that younger people vote more liberal and as they get older swing more to the centre / centre right , there are people who would now vote leave that voted remain using the same logic .

Whatever happens this whole saga has sapped the life from us all and should be done and dusted already .
The media , remain and politicians have done their best to hamper the progress of the whole thing , the will of the people MUST be acted upon , and that is true democracy .
The vote was a simple question , do you want to leave the European Union yes or no .

Now leave

Ps :Theresa may is a c**t

 

[martcov]

Why do you have to try and maje it look as though I am totally wrong whilst agreeing with what I say? Have had enough of it.

Why not add about a coalition with the Irish? Yes we have one now.

I explained why negotiating out of this mess is maybe the best way forward. You don't question the facts as you can't. But you have to make a statement.

I don't agree with leaving. I don't want us to leave. But at least I understand what is going on. How many other than myself call it last week as it wasn't between May deal or no deal? I am not blind to what is happening. I am not expecting the impossible to happen because it is what I want.

But I will be straight with you. Your constant twisting of words and truth joined with insults is really pissing me off now. If you want to have a debate I will try one more final time. Otherwise I will do what I should have done ages ago and totally ignore you. You don't want to listen. You don't want to think outside the box. You don't seem to comprehend the situation in England.

Older people are much more likely to vote. Older people want out of the EU. The MP's want us to remain in the EU. But they don't want to totally upset the electorate. Which part of this doesn't your brain comprehend?

I haven’t insulted you and I don’t claim that you are always totally wrong.

They may not want to totally upset the electorate, but allowing Brexit will upset at least, but probably more, than half of the electorate won’t get them anywhere.

 

[Deleted member 7943]

I haven’t insulted you and I don’t claim that you are always totally wrong.

They may not want to totally upset the electorate, but allowing Brexit will upset at least, but probably more, than half of the electorate won’t get them anywhere.

Mate half the electorate are upset every general election , we get over it and move on

 

[martcov]

The petitions , the rallies etc mean absolutely zero , you could have 10 million people march on Westminster demanding article 50 Be revoked , fact is 17 million people voted leave .

I also hear the nonsense argument that a few people who voted leave are now dead And the younger generation who couldn’t vote would now vote remain .

Forgetting that voting trends PROVE that younger people vote more liberal and as they get older swing more to the centre / centre right , there are people who would now vote leave that voted remain using the same logic .

Whatever happens this whole saga has sapped the life from us all and should be done and dusted already .
The media , remain and politicians have done their best to hamper the progress of the whole thing , the will of the people MUST be acted upon , and that is true democracy .
The vote was a simple question , do you want to leave the European Union yes or no .

Now leave

It isn’t simple. That’s why we have got nowhere in 3 years. It is why the whole idea of Brexit is undeliverable. If you vote for something which is undeliverable, apart from screwing the country, then you have voted for the wrong thing. Now you can see what Brexit is and that you were lied to. We don’t hold all the cards, we cannot have our cake and eat it, German car makers haven’t convinced the German government to roll over to UK demands. The EU hasn’t fallen apart, Brexit has shown people the advantages of nations working together as opposed to trying to go it alone. Accept the facts and allow people to vote for what we now know. If the people still want Brexit, then fair enough.

 

[Nick]

Fuck the shouty vest nonsense off, we have a match today that's more important

 

[martcov]

Mate half the electorate are upset every general election , we get over it and move on

In the knowledge that we can kick them out in a couple of years and that they won’t completely wreck the country.

 

[martcov]

Fuck the shouty vest nonsense off, we have a match today that's more important

Normally I would get to the game if I were so close, but asking for a final say on the most important peace time decision in my lifetime takes precedence on this occasion.

 

[Deleted member 7943]

It isn’t simple. That’s why we have got nowhere in 3 years. It is why the whole idea of Brexit is undeliverable. If you vote for something which is undeliverable, apart from screwing the country, then you have voted for the wrong thing. Now you can see what Brexit is and that you were lied to. We don’t hold all the cards, we cannot have our cake and eat it, German car makers haven’t convinced the German government to roll over to UK demands. The EU hasn’t fallen apart, Brexit has shown people the advantages of nations working together as opposed to trying to go it alone. Accept the facts and allow people to vote for what we now know. If the people still want Brexit, then fair enough.

Who says it’s undeliverable ?

Remainers were lied to also , where’s the recession ? Still waiting but it’s 3 years later than the BOE said it would be ?

Mate we were all lied to , but the fact of the matter is this , most people who voted leave are the same people who voted us into the thing in the first place , THEY were truly lied to and never voted for what we have today , the young kids who think it’s the end of days because they now have to pay 7 pound for a 3 year visa to travel to Europe are the ones with NO life experience lapping up all the EU funded media tell them and their Marxist university professors ,calling life veterans THICK , RACIST and UNINFORMED .

Wake up

 

[Deleted member 7943]

In the knowledge that we can kick them out in a couple of years and that they won’t completely wreck the country.

You will get another vote on Europe I’m sure , let’s say 40 years

 

[martcov]

Who cares how many turn out? A screechy mob of anarchists and people wanting a day out on the piss - it means nothing

I own a pub and take part on 20 events and beer festivals a year. I am spending 2000 € on this trip for me and my daughter. I don’t need an excuse to find a place for a day out on the piss. I think you are getting the March confused with one of Tommy‘s ( or his successors‘ ) EDL piss ups where you get drunk and shout at foreigners. Or maybe one of Farage‘s „blokes in a pub marches“.

 

[martcov]

Who says it’s undeliverable ?

Remainers were lied to also , where’s the recession ? Still waiting but it’s 3 years later than the BOE said it would be ?

Mate we were all lied to , but the fact of the matter is this , most people who voted leave are the same people who voted us into the thing in the first place , THEY were truly lied to and never voted for what we have today , the young kids who think it’s the end of days because they now have to pay 7 pound for a 3 year visa to travel to Europe are the ones with NO life experience lapping up all the EU funded media tell them and their Marxist university professors ,calling life veterans THICK , RACIST and UNINFORMED .

Wake up

No, you wake up. Who are calling the leave shots? Public school boys, hedge fund owners and their shareholders and city traders. Work that one out.

 

[Deleted member 7943]

I own a pub and take part on 20 events and beer festivals a year. I am spending 2000 € on this trip for me and my daughter. I don’t need an excuse to find a place for a day out on the piss. I think you are getting the March confused with one of Tommy‘s ( or his successors‘ ) EDL piss ups where you get drunk and shout at foreigners. Or maybe one of Farage‘s „blokes in a pub marches“.

Shouldn’t you be spending your 2000 Euros stocking up on rations , medicine and UHT milk ready for the apocalypse lol

 

[Deleted member 7943]

No, you wake up. Who are calling the leave shots? Public school boys, hedge fund owners and their shareholders and city traders. Work that one out.

The day the left started backing the establishment is the day they became irrelevant .

More confused than scooby doo , have a great day , enjoy Brexit

 

[SkyblueBazza]

Leavers don't have a reason yet to start protests. That would most probably happen if parliament just said we are exiting Brexit.

Are you after total anarchy?

He'd like that.
What is it they say about empty heads?

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[SkyblueBazza]

Laughable generalisation.

On this thread??? Don't be ridiculous

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[tisza]

Mate half the electorate are upset every general election , we get over it and move on

Technically more half. Usually nearer 60 %.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

Shouldn’t you be spending your 2000 Euros stocking up on rations , medicine and UHT milk ready for the apocalypse lol

Wish he'd just remain in Germany lol

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[Astute]

I haven’t insulted you and I don’t claim that you are always totally wrong.

They may not want to totally upset the electorate, but allowing Brexit will upset at least, but probably more, than half of the electorate won’t get them anywhere.

So why did you try and show part of a post to be wrong then make out the long post was wrong by saying there has been no coalition with the Scottish or Welsh?

Look again at what I said. There is very rarely a coalition with an Irish, Welsh or Scottish party. This is the reason why politicians don't want to upset the English electorate as 15 million out of 28 million voted leave. Yet you twisted it around to me being wrong because there has never been a coalition with the Welsh or Scottish. So you make out I am wrong when agreeing with me.

And yes you do it constantly.

 

[Sick Boy]

So why did you try and show part of a post to be wrong then make out the long post was wrong by saying there has been no coalition with the Scottish or Welsh?

Look again at what I said. There is very rarely a coalition with an Irish, Welsh or Scottish party. This is the reason why politicians don't want to upset the English electorate as 15 million out of 28 million voted leave. Yet you twisted it around to me being wrong because there has never been a coalition with the Welsh or Scottish. So you make out I am wrong when agreeing with me.

And yes you do it constantly.

Ffs grow up, you really do have a warped need to play the victim at every opportunity.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Exactly how I see it.

Another referendum? As I have said before it would cause many problems without solving a lot. Would we call it a final result whatever happens? What if it is leave again? What if it was just by thousands instead of a large number as it was? Not talking about percentages here. A 4% difference is large or small depending on which way you want to see it. Would we still leave without a deal if nothing could be agreed?

How about if remain won but by a small amount? The 48% from last time will be happy but what about everyone else? It would split the country. Because the numbers in Scotland and Ireland made the numbers in England look much closer. If you counted it as voting areas leave won 270 against 129. This is because the vast majority of areas in England voted leave. Scotland and Ireland which are much smaller were vastly remain. And the highest percentage of votes cast were in England closely followed by Wales. 15 million out of 28 million voted leave in England.

So what is left? As I have been saying I can't see the May deal or leave without a deal happening at all. The problem is that the England vote is important to the politicians. It is what decides who rules the UK. The only time that votes from Wales, Ireland and Scotland count is when they vote Tory or Labour. Other than that it is when a coalition is made with a party from one of those countries. And it isn't that often.

This is why the MP's can't or won't vote an alternative through. It could easily finish a party for many years if not forever. Look at the LibDems after jumping into bed with the Tories. So we will struggle to get a majority for anything.

But they won't let the May deal through as it is a mash of everything but goes against everything in a way. A no deal would be harmful so they won't let it happen. So they need a way to stop it without looking as though they are going against the electorate.

A long extension with the EU and negotiations to finally start is the best way out of this mess. Negotiations will include close ties. This will mean that even if we do end up leaving the EU most people won't notice any difference. We need the EU. The EU needs us. I'm not bothered what anyone says. It is the truth. Nobody wants untold job losses throughout the UK and EU when it can be stopped.

Good summary.

How do we build trust?

It’s not just about doing something because you promised to is it? Especially if what was promised isn’t possible.

I’d be happy for another refurrendum but it would need to be credible! It needs to be we’ve tried to enact the will of majority that voted in 2016 and haven’t managed to. We are sorry that we need to ask again.

The biggest problem for me is not failing to deliver or asking again but the nature of us and them and right and wrong and left and right and racist and liberal. Most of us have preferences and some are really passionate about them but it moves into another arena when we bully or intimidate or ignore or dismiss another arguments before we hear them and refuse to engage

It’s been happening for a long time but I can’t believe Theresa may talked about being on the public’s side against parliament. It’s almost treasonous to talk like that and the extremists in our society will jump on it and take it to criminal lengths. I think we need temperate politicians clearly spelling out the needs of the country seeking unity and a clear way forward that the country can see the credible way forward and get behind

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Leavers don't have a reason yet to start protests. That would most probably happen if parliament just said we are exiting Brexit.

Are you after total anarchy?

Some are and others are unwillingly making it a possibility

 

[Astute]

Good summary.

How do we build trust?

It’s not just about doing something because you promised to is it? Especially if what was promised isn’t possible.

I’d be happy for another refurrendum but it would need to be credible! It needs to be we’ve tried to enact the will of majority that voted in 2016 and haven’t managed to. We are sorry that we need to ask again.

The biggest problem for me is not failing to deliver or asking again but the nature of us and them and right and wrong and left and right and racist and liberal. Most of us have preferences and some are really passionate about them but it moves into another arena when we bully or intimidate or ignore or dismiss another arguments before we hear them and refuse to engage

It’s been happening for a long time but I can’t believe Theresa may talked about being on the public’s side against parliament. It’s almost treasonous to talk like that and the extremists in our society will jump on it and take it to criminal lengths. I think we need temperate politicians clearly spelling out the needs of the country seeking unity and a clear way forward that the country can see the credible way forward and get behind

We need to sort out a way of resolving this mess we are in before we even consider how to even attempt to rebuild trust. Then it will depend on how the mess is sorted out to who we need to rebuild the trust with.

What could end up being the best way out of this mess could end up being the one which loses the most trust. Then it will be difficult.

The problem with another referendum is what would be credible. Yes or no would be a rerun of this fiasco. More than two questions would most probably lead to no majority. And with what has happened so far would another leave vote but even closer the next time get accepted by those who won't accept the last one? Would a remain vote but much closer than the last one be accepted by those who got the majority last time and expected to leave?

I want and really need us to remain. The problem is that I have tried to consider the best result all round. I accept what I wanted didn't get the winning vote. I find it hard to accept the way the referendum was won. If it was run on truth and Juncker didn't poke his nose in two days before the referendum I am quite sure we would have got the remain result. But it happened. Cameron preferred project fear instead of saying how it is. Maybe he was worried about the response on how difficult it would be to leave something we didn't choose to join. The older electorate will remember how they were lied to all them years ago. But the younger ones would have understood.

I kind of understand the May comment. The majority in England want to leave the EU where the vast majority of MP's want to remain in the EU. She seems to be thinking more of the next GE and who will win it over the short term future of the UK.

 

[martcov]

We need to sort out a way of resolving this mess we are in before we even consider how to even attempt to rebuild trust. Then it will depend on how the mess is sorted out to who we need to rebuild the trust with.

What could end up being the best way out of this mess could end up being the one which loses the most trust. Then it will be difficult.

The problem with another referendum is what would be credible. Yes or no would be a rerun of this fiasco. More than two questions would most probably lead to no majority. And with what has happened so far would another leave vote but even closer the next time get accepted by those who won't accept the last one? Would a remain vote but much closer than the last one be accepted by those who got the majority last time and expected to leave?

I want and really need us to remain. The problem is that I have tried to consider the best result all round. I accept what I wanted didn't get the winning vote. I find it hard to accept the way the referendum was won. If it was run on truth and Juncker didn't poke his nose in two days before the referendum I am quite sure we would have got the remain result. But it happened. Cameron preferred project fear instead of saying how it is. Maybe he was worried about the response on how difficult it would be to leave something we didn't choose to join. The older electorate will remember how they were lied to all them years ago. But the younger ones would have understood.

I kind of understand the May comment. The majority in England want to leave the EU where the vast majority of MP's want to remain in the EU. She seems to be thinking more of the next GE and who will win it over the short term future of the UK.

The majority in England do not want Brexit. See the march on TV. No one in the march or who passed by wants Brexit. All cheered us on. ( only one twat stood with a sign saying the people have already voted, but left after 10 minutes )