The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (8 Viewers)

[Grendel]

don't oversimplify it -6 out of 10 Labour constituencies backed a Brexit - just behind 7 out of 10 Conservative.

And the vast majority of labour areas that voted remain were in the London Boroughs

 

[tisza]

And the vast majority of labour areas that voted remain were in the London Boroughs

some of those proposed a separate opt-out just for London

 

[Grappa]

don't oversimplify it -6 out of 10 Labour constituencies backed a Brexit - just behind 7 out of 10 Conservative.

Come off it. The fact that we had the referendum was the decision of one party.
It should never have been put to the people. We have a representative democracy for a reason. If the consequences of their decision ever calm down enough for the country to return to relative normality maybe they can let the people vote on capital punishment for a bit more fun.

 

[Grendel]

Come off it. The fact that we had the referendum was the decision of one party.
It should never have been put to the people. We have a representative democracy for a reason. If the consequences of their decision ever calm down enough for the country to return to relative normality maybe they can let the people vote on capital punishment for a bit more fun.

It was a decision of one party - that oddly won the election

There was a referendum in the 70’s as well. Should it have been out to the people then?

It’s an odd argument. If the party has a manifesto commitment to leave and it’s elected to parliament would you agree that we should leave then?

 

[Grappa]

It was a decision of one party - that oddly won the election

There was a referendum in the 70’s as well. Should it have been out to the people then?

It’s an odd argument. If the party has a manifesto commitment to leave and it’s elected to parliament would you agree that we should leave then?

I am saying that the responsibility for the shitstorm clusterfuck division of our country as it currently stands, is the fault of one party and one party only. It's not an argument. It is a statement.
If you think everything is great right now then there's not a lot I can say to you. What we don't need now is whataboutism and tribal bollocks. I'm really fucked off with all this.

 

[Astute]

Explain.

How can I explain to someone who doesn't want to understand?

I will try once more with you.

I said what was in the poll. You asked me where I got it from although you had already looked at the poll. So I show you the poll again. So what do you do? You ask me to explain.

You are not thick. You know what is going on. You understand what is being said. But I have had enough of those who are looking for an argument. If you want to make out that you still don't understand I don't mind. I just won't reply to you again. Have had enough of idiots trying to pick arguments to derail any sort of debate.

 

[Astute]

don't oversimplify it -6 out of 10 Labour constituencies backed a Brexit - just behind 7 out of 10 Conservative.

Yet this is denied by some. Look at how many times I put a colour coded map up that showed what area voted leave and remain. A few still tried to deny it.

 

[shmmeee]

Yet this is denied by some. Look at how many times I put a colour coded map up that showed what area voted leave and remain. A few still tried to deny it.

It’s apples and oranges. Referendum votes don’t translate at all into constituency votes.

Marginal seats aren’t won by a majority and lots of people who don’t vote in GEs voted in the referendum.

It’s a fools game to try and translate it. Aside from anything else we’ve had an actual GE since then.

(Side note: I can’t be arsed to go back and check what started this conversation so not entirely sure what’s being argued )

 

[Astute]

It’s apples and oranges. Referendum votes don’t translate at all into constituency votes.

Marginal seats aren’t won by a majority and lots of people who don’t vote in GEs voted in the referendum.

It’s a fools game to try and translate it. Aside from anything else we’ve had an actual GE since then.

(Side note: I can’t be arsed to go back and check what started this conversation so not entirely sure what’s being argued )

Up north voted leave. London and a few places down South voted remain. It was clear to see.

It isn't an argument. There was a statement that Labour voters voted leave as a whole.

And yet again my post is highlighted yet the person who made the first post highlighting the fact never got a mention. Yet my posts are not supposed to be jumped on :shifty:

And in case for some reason some can't remember...

EU referendum: The result in maps and charts

 

[tisza]

Come off it. The fact that we had the referendum was the decision of one party.
It should never have been put to the people. We have a representative democracy for a reason. If the consequences of their decision ever calm down enough for the country to return to relative normality maybe they can let the people vote on capital punishment for a bit more fun.

I am saying that the responsibility for the shitstorm clusterfuck division of our country as it currently stands, is the fault of one party and one party only. It's not an argument. It is a statement.
If you think everything is great right now then there's not a lot I can say to you. What we don't need now is whataboutism and tribal bollocks. I'm really fucked off with all this.

obviously not. decision to hold a referendum passed through the Commons 544-53. not even close.
if all the Oppostition parties and just a handful of Tory remainers voted together then they would have had the numbers toblock all sorts of things since last GE. But when the largest Opposition party has a significant number of Brexiteers then there's your representative democracy at work.

 

[Sick Boy]

Up north voted leave. London and a few places down South voted remain. It was clear to see.

It isn't an argument. There was a statement that Labour voters voted leave as a whole.

And yet again my post is highlighted yet the person who made the first post highlighting the fact never got a mention. Yet my posts are not supposed to be jumped on :shifty:

And in case for some reason some can't remember...

EU referendum: The result in maps and charts

Was this the post where you claimed that Brighton was a Tory dominated city? Your obsession with playing the victim who is never wrong is fucking boring.

 

[martcov]

How can I explain to someone who doesn't want to understand?

I will try once more with you.

I said what was in the poll. You asked me where I got it from although you had already looked at the poll. So I show you the poll again. So what do you do? You ask me to explain.

You are not thick. You know what is going on. You understand what is being said. But I have had enough of those who are looking for an argument. If you want to make out that you still don't understand I don't mind. I just won't reply to you again. Have had enough of idiots trying to pick arguments to derail any sort of debate.

You have not understood what I said.

You claim that no one knows what they want. What you mean is that there is no majority for any particular solution. I and others know what we want, but we are not in a majority people’s vote is very popular but not the majority. Yet.

 

[Astute]

You have not understood what I said.

You claim that no one knows what they want. What you mean is that there is no majority for any particular solution. I and others know what we want, but we are not in a majority people’s vote is very popular but not the majority. Yet.

Twisting words again?

So where did I say nobody knows what they want?

I want and need us to stay in the EU. But lying and taking the piss out of those who want us to leave won't change anything. Taking the piss out of anyone won't change anything. And I am not prepared to act like a twat to get pats on the back. Wish I could say that for everyone.

 

[tisza]

Twisting words again?

So where did I say nobody knows what they want?

I want and need us to stay in the EU. But lying and taking the piss out of those who want us to leave won't change anything. Taking the piss out of anyone won't change anything. And I am not prepared to act like a twat to get pats on the back. Wish I could say that for everyone.

The blame game is tiresome. everyone needs to take their share.

 

[Sick Boy]

Twisting words again?

So where did I say nobody knows what they want?

I want and need us to stay in the EU. But lying and taking the piss out of those who want us to leave won't change anything. Taking the piss out of anyone won't change anything. And I am not prepared to act like a twat to get pats on the back. Wish I could say that for everyone.

You’ve consistely turned a blind eye to the abuse aimed at Mart and never pulled those posters up on it.

Why is that?

 

[Sick Boy]

Secret Cabinet Office document reveals chaotic planning for no-deal Brexit

No matter what side you’re on, these morons should have been removed from power a long time ago, incompetent would be a compliment for these lot.

The country is in the thick of a crisis, it’s time to get a cross party government together until this is sorted out one way or another and then have a GE.

 

[Astute]

The blame game is tiresome. everyone needs to take their share.

What makes me laugh is that there is always someone ready to defend whoever gets some part of the blame. It is as though nobody has any part of the blame.

To me the biggest part was by Cameron for offering a referendum if the Tories got voted back in. But there is a fair few more that have played their part.

 

[tisza]

What makes me laugh is that there is always someone ready to defend whoever gets some part of the blame. It is as though nobody has any part of the blame.

To me the biggest part was by Cameron for offering a referendum if the Tories got voted back in. But there is a fair few more that have played their part.

Again it's fine but let's call out these remainers who backed the parliamentary vote for a referendum. Again 544 to 53. Wasn't 544 brexiteers in that vote.

 

[Grappa]

The blame game is tiresome. everyone needs to take their share.

Nah. You're not an idiot. I get that you're tory. I remember you and ashdown tag-teaming on gmk. At least you've let that nob go. This is more important than party politics imo.
All this shit has emboldened the racist arseholes. It's dredged up all those fucking idiots that had become too ashamed to actually vocalise their nonsense. And here we are.
Leavers were manipulated. There was no mention of no deal in any of the leave party's propaganda. Now it's all 'we voted for no deal'. Bollocks. But nobody will ever admit they were conned. So here we are.
So how do we progress?

 

[Astute]

Again it's fine but let's call out these remainers who backed the parliamentary vote for a referendum. Again 544 to 53. Wasn't 544 brexiteers in that vote.

I haven't got a tin hat big enough to stop the bullshit hitting me if I mentioned it on here. You are only allowed to have a go at those who want to leave the EU and if you mention anything about anyone at all who wants to remain but won't speak the while truth it means you really want to leave.......

It is as though what is said on here will actually make a difference to what will happen.

 

[Grappa]

Actually, fuck it. Internet off, Harold Melvin and the Blue Notes on the headphones. Nighty night.

 

[martcov]

Twisting words again?

So where did I say nobody knows what they want?

I want and need us to stay in the EU. But lying and taking the piss out of those who want us to leave won't change anything. Taking the piss out of anyone won't change anything. And I am not prepared to act like a twat to get pats on the back. Wish I could say that for everyone.

Not twisting anything.

 

[martcov]

Twisting words again?

So where did I say nobody knows what they want?

I want and need us to stay in the EU. But lying and taking the piss out of those who want us to leave won't change anything. Taking the piss out of anyone won't change anything. And I am not prepared to act like a twat to get pats on the back. Wish I could say that for everyone.

Accusing me of lying as usual. Twisting my words as usual. Not comprehending what I said as usual.

 

[martcov]

Let me know when the petition gets passed 17.4 million.

Somehow I doubt it will, even though some people are bragging that they've signed it 10 times.

Why don’t you compare like with like? It’s much fairer.

Revoke A50petition: 3.6 million

May deal petition: (0)

Crash out petition: 400K

 

[Astute]

Accusing me of lying as usual. Twisting my words as usual. Not comprehending what I said as usual.

Explain what you said then if it wasn't twisting words. It is there for everyone to see.

 

[Astute]

And here it is. The first hint that it isn't Mays deal or no deal.

Vote on PM's deal may not take place

Ministers 'divided' on Brexit votes process

 

[tisza]

Nah. You're not an idiot. I get that you're tory. I remember you and ashdown tag-teaming on gmk. At least you've let that nob go. This is more important than party politics imo.
All this shit has emboldened the racist arseholes. It's dredged up all those fucking idiots that had become too ashamed to actually vocalise their nonsense. And here we are.
Leavers were manipulated. There was no mention of no deal in any of the leave party's propaganda. Now it's all 'we voted for no deal'. Bollocks. But nobody will ever admit they were conned. So here we are.
So how do we progress?

Not a Tory.
Time spent involved working with politicians (of all political hues) at the beginning of my career put me off party politics. If you do back as far as gmk then you'll remember some of the stories.
Where do we go now? Somewhere we'll end up by default. Probably a fudge that nobody really wants but not enough really object to. Parliament hasn't a clue where we are going but really don't want a 2nd referendum in-out unless they can guarantee a clear result. Possibility of a people's vote on leave options more likely as politicians can shift the blame away from themselves and back onto the electorate.
Concern remains where we will end up. Going to be large angry sections of the voting public who will feel betrayed whichever way it goes. Platitudes will come from politicians about rebuilding trust which has been in consistent decline for many years anyway.
Idealistically the role of how Govt should be reexamined - hopefully to include a democratic second House, the use of the whipping system and more open govt as a whole. Fat chance.

 

[martcov]

Not a Tory.
Time spent involved working with politicians (of all political hues) at the beginning of my career put me off party politics. If you do back as far as gmk then you'll remember some of the stories.
Where do we go now? Somewhere we'll end up by default. Probably a fudge that nobody really wants but not enough really object to. Parliament hasn't a clue where we are going but really don't want a 2nd referendum in-out unless they can guarantee a clear result. Possibility of a people's vote on leave options more likely as politicians can shift the blame away from themselves and back onto the electorate.
Concern remains where we will end up. Going to be large angry sections of the voting public who will feel betrayed whichever way it goes. Platitudes will come from politicians about rebuilding trust which has been in consistent decline for many years anyway.
Idealistically the role of how Govt should be reexamined - hopefully to include a democratic second House, the use of the whipping system and more open govt as a whole. Fat chance.

To that I would add PR instead of FPTP. Then you would have more parties to choose from and in a coalition system more views can be turned into policy. We must be almost unique with FPTP which wastes people’s votes. Even though I cannot stand Farage or UKIP, he did get millions of votes, but no seats. That is not fair on his voters.

 

[tisza]

It was a decision of one party - that oddly won the election

There was a referendum in the 70’s as well. Should it have been out to the people then?

It’s an odd argument. If the party has a manifesto commitment to leave and it’s elected to parliament would you agree that we should leave then?

Both the 2 main parties committed to respecting the referendum at last GE.
Labour up until the last few weeks were still committed as long as it was in line with their own deal. A position backed by their 2017 party conference after the GE. At least most of their leave mps have had a fairly consistent view unlike the Tories.
If people really wanted to remain in 2017 then they should have backed other parties.

 

[tisza]

To that I would add PR instead of FPTP. Then you would have more parties to choose from and in a coalition system more views can be turned into policy. We must be almost unique with FPTP which wastes people’s votes. Even though I cannot stand Farage or UKIP, he did get millions of votes, but no seats. That is not fair on his voters.

For all the scorn of the Tory/libdem coalition what it did succeed in doing was have some success in moderating legislation and Govt.
PR would only be effective if the number of serious parties increased and for that funding rules need reexamining. With just 3 main parties we're going to have a stalemate or again we're going to have address the role of free votes and the whipping system (something all parties fear).
Not demeaning size of Brexit but other areas such as education, health, welfare are equally important for the future of the country. If we're asking MPs to follow their conscience on Brexit then they should be allowed to do so in other types of key legislation.
Another bonus of PR is normally you may get some extremist parties (both ways) but other parties won't govern with them and so tends to stop them actually disrupting Govt. See ya ERG

 

[Grappa]

Daryl Hall & John Oates - I Can't Go for That (No Can Do) (12" Single) (Vinyl)
Now that's a tune. Go home everyone else.

 

[Grappa]

I'm gonna play ring my bell by anita ward now.

 

[Grappa]

Not a Tory.

Tory

 

[martcov]

Explain what you said then if it wasn't twisting words. It is there for everyone to see.

When I asked where did you get that from, I was asking how did you come to the conclusion that no one knows what they want... not where did you get your polling results. Individual people now know what is available and what they want. But there is no majority in parliament for any of the options.

We need to put it to the people. They voted leave. It turned out to be impossible to do that without damaging the country now, and most likely for the foreseeable future. A bad idea sold on lies.

Do they still want to go ahead? Parliament is deadlocked, let the people decide.

Tom Watson is speaking in London today. As are many others.

Tom Watson defies Jeremy Corbyn by backing fresh Brexit referendum as 'the only way' to solve crisis

 

[SkyblueBazza]

Again it's fine but let's call out these remainers who backed the parliamentary vote for a referendum. Again 544 to 53. Wasn't 544 brexiteers in that vote.

And then there is a clamour to delay or revoke Article 50, & many saying we should not have been so quick to trigger it...this is the same Article 50 they voted in favour of triggering by a majority of just under 400!

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk