The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (71 Viewers)

[Sick Boy]

You have always been a part of this debate for as long as I have. And you only come out with the parts that to you look bad for the UK and good for the EU.

So there were no specific quotes then?

 

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[Sick Boy]

Hardly any UK citizens go to Spain as you was the only one in your hotel in Lanzarote. Yet over a quarter of their tourists come from the UK.

That is twisting the truth whichever way you put it. Tourism from the UK was worth 12.7 billion last year to them. They have an unemployment rate of over 17%. What would it go up to if the EU made things difficult for us? And Spain isn't the only EU country that depends on us for tourism.

The only person twisting words here is you. Genuinely confused how you came to that conclusion based on what I said.

Any sort of deal that the UK citizens get will be matched by those of EU citizens. From what you're saying you expect freedom of movement for leisure purposes to continue unrestricted without visas.

 

[martcov]

Before we get too deep into your copy and paste do you actually know much about international monetary policies and how international banking happens? Don't want to try and have a debate with you if you don't have a clue.

I worked for a bank.

 

[martcov]

You have admitted to being very biased. You have come out with comments shown to be false information. But you still bring them up again in the future. You seem to think that we should only debate one side of what is going on.

You won’t admit you are biased. You claim Juncker is president of Europe and wants to be chancellor of Europe ( Chancellor in the sense of the German meaning) ). You also say Juncker should be arrested because the country where he was PM is full of tax dodgers money. You claim that the EU destroyed Greece for the benefit of Germany.

The Daily Mail and Express in one person.

When people point out that Juncker is not president of the EU, that he wants a finance minister for the EU and that he says he won’t be standing again for president of the EU commission, you claim to know better.

When I point out that the U.K. is counted as the worst offender for allowing tax dodges when you add it together with its dependencies, I get accused of defending Juncker. I am not, but am pointing out that the U.K. is at least as guilty as some EU countries and that your anger should also be directed at our government.

One reason that Greece is in a mess is because a huge amount of money was transferred to tax havens - including British dependencies - by the rich in Greece. I would have thought that instead of scoffing at me, you would also mention the other factors in this disaster.

But, hey, you own some shares. So you must be neutral and an expert.

 

[martcov]

What I really would like Martcov to answer is his view that the Eu is supposedly committed to eliminating tax havens but it’s own members who need to agree to do this have - according to the Eu itself - increased company sweetener deals by 50% in a year and one country in particular - the Netherlands - is the biggest exponent of this.

So rather than try and post irrelevant links answer this - how will this happen when key member states are at it and it’s growing and growing?

You accused me recently of not posting links. I post a link showing the UK is the worst offender if you count it’s dependencies. Which you deny.

Everything in the gutter press and from wealthy right wingers is directed at the EU. The EU is the easiest deflection there is.

No one denies what you are saying, but, get real. The EU didn’t invent tax dodging. By leaving the EU we won’t stop it. By staying in we would at least have a say in the discussion about The Netherlands and Luxemburg.

 

[Kingokings204]

You accused me recently of not posting links. I post a link showing the UK is the worst offender if you count it’s dependencies. Which you deny.

Everything in the gutter press and from wealthy right wingers is directed at the EU. The EU is the easiest deflection there is.

No one denies what you are saying, but, get real. The EU didn’t invent tax dodging. By leaving the EU we won’t stop it. By staying in we would at least have a say in the discussion about The Netherlands and Luxemburg.

So basically you're admitted stating the EU is irrelevant for Britain. We may have discussions on Luxembourg and the Netherlands but what's the point they will do sod all about it and if they did and I'm wrong you just gonto the Cayman Islands so if that's your argument for uk saying in the EU is a bad one fully admitted by you the EU didn't invent tax dodging and we can can't stop it.

Oh and Ireland and Malta aren't saints either. Guess we can just slap all 4 countries on the wrist as part of the EU. Don't do that please.

 

[Astute]

So there were no specific quotes then?

You went to a hotel in Lanzarote. The Spanish don't rely on us as you was the only Brit in the hotel.

And that was this morning that you said it.

 

[martcov]

So basically you're admitted stating the EU is irrelevant for Britain. We may have discussions on Luxembourg and the Netherlands but what's the point they will do sod all about it and if they did and I'm wrong you just gonto the Cayman Islands so if that's your argument for uk saying in the EU is a bad one fully admitted by you the EU didn't invent tax dodging and we can can't stop it.

Oh and Ireland and Malta aren't saints either. Guess we can just slap all 4 countries on the wrist as part of the EU. Don't do that please.

I haven’t said the EU is irrelevant to Britain. I have pointed out that it gets blamed for everything by some people and the gutter press. You may say nothing will happen. You may be right, but unlike you, I believe we should at least have a go at creating a just system. The U.K. has influence on it’s dependencies, but is unlikely to do anything given as the rich and powerful benefit and they rule us. Maybe Labour would be more inclined to than the Tories. Perhaps if you voted Labour there would be a better chance of stopping some tax dodging. We will see. I hope the EU at least attempts to get a more equal VAT and corporation tax system. If and when I get the right to vote, I will be voting for a party that wants a cohesive tax system in the EU, thus stopping countries like Luxemburg and Malta from undercutting other EU countries.

 

[Astute]

The only person twisting words here is you. Genuinely confused how you came to that conclusion based on what I said.

Any sort of deal that the UK citizens get will be matched by those of EU citizens. From what you're saying you expect freedom of movement for leisure purposes to continue unrestricted without visas.

So point out where I have said that.

I have said the total opposite. I have constantly said that we don't know. I have constantly said that it depends on what sort of deal there is. Even this morning I have been saying the same to you. Yet amazingly you have forgotten already. And amazingly Mart agrees with you. What a shock

Or what do you think I was saying about the Spanish needing an agreement as over a quarter of tourists there come from the UK?

Then you disagree with me saying that you twist what I say

 

[Kingokings204]

I haven’t said the EU is irrelevant to Britain. I have pointed out that it gets blamed for everything by some people and the gutter press. You may say nothing will happen. You may be right, but unlike you, I believe we should at least have a go at creating a just system. The U.K. has influence on it’s dependencies, but is unlikely to do anything given as the rich and powerful benefit and they rule us. Maybe Labour would be more inclined to than the Tories. Perhaps if you voted Labour there would be a better chance of stopping some tax dodging. We will see. I hope the EU at least attempts to get a more equal VAT and corporation tax system. If and when I get the right to vote, I will be voting for a party that wants a cohesive tax system in the EU, thus stopping countries like Luxemburg and Malta from undercutting other EU countries.

Yeah ok that's fair enough. I would just point out we as a country have tried really hard to get reform and a different approach including Cameron's infamous try. The EU can't be reformed. If it could be we would voted to remain by a large share i admit.

 

[Astute]

I worked for a bank.

So would you like to point out where I have been wrong on financial matters?

Most people who work in a bank know what happens in a bank. They don't need to know much more. My sister has just given up her job in a bank that she has been doing for a lot of years to move to France. I have helped her with the financial side of the move.

I look forward to your reply.

 

[Grendel]

You certainly have a high opinion of yourself. I'm sure Lammy is much more well and wildly respected than you are.

He is a joke character. He couldn’t even finish third in the selection for the London Mayor candidate. The hapless Abbott even beat him

 

[Grendel]

You accused me recently of not posting links. I post a link showing the UK is the worst offender if you count it’s dependencies. Which you deny.

Everything in the gutter press and from wealthy right wingers is directed at the EU. The EU is the easiest deflection there is.

No one denies what you are saying, but, get real. The EU didn’t invent tax dodging. By leaving the EU we won’t stop it. By staying in we would at least have a say in the discussion about The Netherlands and Luxemburg.

Hold on - you said the EU are committed to change - so explain to me how they can change when they require the Netherlands to support the change?

They didn’t invent tax avoidance but they embrace it and they are expanding it.

Gutter press? I’ve quoted their own press agency!

So don’t start throwing stones at glass houses.

 

[Sick Boy]

You went to a hotel in Lanzarote. The Spanish don't rely on us as you was the only Brit in the hotel.

And that was this morning that you said it.

I think that you're on the wind up with this.

 

[Astute]

You won’t admit you are biased. You claim Juncker is president of Europe and wants to be chancellor of Europe ( Chancellor in the sense of the German meaning) ). You also say Juncker should be arrested because the country where he was PM is full of tax dodgers money. You claim that the EU destroyed Greece for the benefit of Germany.

The Daily Mail and Express in one person.

When people point out that Juncker is not president of the EU, that he wants a finance minister for the EU and that he says he won’t be standing again for president of the EU commission, you claim to know better.

When I point out that the U.K. is counted as the worst offender for allowing tax dodges when you add it together with its dependencies, I get accused of defending Juncker. I am not, but am pointing out that the U.K. is at least as guilty as some EU countries and that your anger should also be directed at our government.

One reason that Greece is in a mess is because a huge amount of money was transferred to tax havens - including British dependencies - by the rich in Greece. I would have thought that instead of scoffing at me, you would also mention the other factors in this disaster.

But, hey, you own some shares. So you must be neutral and an expert.

What a load of bollocks. But nothing unusual from you on this subject.

You won’t admit you are biased. You claim Juncker is president of Europe and wants to be chancellor of Europe ( Chancellor in the sense of the German meaning) ). You also say Juncker should be arrested because the country where he was PM is full of tax dodgers money.

Point out just once where I have said that he should be arrested. What a lie. What I have said is that he should be suspended from being one of the top 2 in the EU. He shouldn't have the chance to influence the investigation that the EU is carrying out into how the tax dodge was set up in Luxembourg. And some pro EU protesters agree. But you know all this.

When I point out that the U.K. is counted as the worst offender for allowing tax dodges when you add it together with its dependencies, I get accused of defending Juncker. I am not, but am pointing out that the U.K. is at least as guilty as some EU countries and that your anger should also be directed at our government.

The UK is counted as the worse offender? Are you having a laugh?

Then you say as guilty as some EU countries. Can't you see your own contradiction there?

I have constantly said that Cameron's dealings should be looked into. But he doesn't need suspending as he has already gone. But yet again you ignore what I have said and make up your own version.

One reason that Greece is in a mess is because a huge amount of money was transferred to tax havens - including British dependencies - by the rich in Greece. I would have thought that instead of scoffing at me, you would also mention the other factors in this disaster.

Yes one reason out of many. But the tax dodge started when Juncker was PM and FINANCE MINISTER for Luxembourg has cost EU countries much more than anywhere else. And what I have also stated is how can Greece recover when they are in the Euro? The Euro is tied to Germany. Germany is doing well. Greece is doing badly.

But, hey, you own some shares. So you must be neutral and an expert.

I have a go at both sides. I say what is best for both sides. I say what would be the worse for both sides. And I understand how worldwide finances work. But I am not an expert.

Whereas you only have a go at one side. You never say anything good that could happen about the UK leaving the EU. It is all about how bad the UK will do and ignore how badly things could go for the EU. You ignore what Juncker has said and make out he said something different.

Then you have the nerve to call me biased.

 

[martcov]

So would you like to point out where I have been wrong on financial matters?

Most people who work in a bank know what happens in a bank. They don't need to know much more. My sister has just given up her job in a bank that she has been doing for a lot of years to move to France. I have helped her with the financial side of the move.

I look forward to your reply.

Most people? I did my Institute of Bankers Exams, which included Finance of Foreign Trade and Basic Accountancy, I also did my A levels which included Economics and Economic Geography. I run 2 businesses in Germany and have invested in various things including shares and rent-to-buy properties in Hamburg. I don’t pretend to be an expert in anything, but I do have a basic grasp of what’s going on.

I was also active in a trade union and am a member of an employers union. So, I have been on both sides of the fence regarding staff issues.

 

[martcov]

Hold on - you said the EU are committed to change - so explain to me how they can change when they require the Netherlands to support the change?

They didn’t invent tax avoidance but they embrace it and they are expanding it.

Gutter press? I’ve quoted their own press agency!

So don’t start throwing stones at glass houses.

I said that Juncker said that in his speech about his policy agenda. That is a lot different to saying everyone is going to go along with that. At least these things are being talked about. I am for reform, however difficult and however long it takes. Quitting won’t help anyone. If anything it will encourage countries to underbid each other.

We know there is a long way to go. There is even further to go with our dependencies and after leaving there will be less pressure to do anything.

Jersey had to reform because of EU pressure. Without that they would still be running with the protection of a paper signed by the king a couple of hundred years ago.

 

[martcov]

What a load of bollocks. But nothing unusual from you on this subject.



Point out just once where I have said that he should be arrested. What a lie. What I have said is that he should be suspended from being one of the top 2 in the EU. He shouldn't have the chance to influence the investigation that the EU is carrying out into how the tax dodge was set up in Luxembourg. And some pro EU protesters agree. But you know all this.



The UK is counted as the worse offender? Are you having a laugh?

Then you say as guilty as some EU countries. Can't you see your own contradiction there?

I have constantly said that Cameron's dealings should be looked into. But he doesn't need suspending as he has already gone. But yet again you ignore what I have said and make up your own version.

Yes one reason out of many. But the tax dodge started when Juncker was PM and FINANCE MINISTER for Luxembourg has cost EU countries much more than anywhere else. And what I have also stated is how can Greece recover when they are in the Euro? The Euro is tied to Germany. Germany is doing well. Greece is doing badly.


I have a go at both sides. I say what is best for both sides. I say what would be the worse for both sides. And I understand how worldwide finances work. But I am not an expert.

Whereas you only have a go at one side. You never say anything good that could happen about the UK leaving the EU. It is all about how bad the UK will do and ignore how badly things could go for the EU. You ignore what Juncker has said and make out he said something different.

Then you have the nerve to call me biased.

Most of the time I end up correcting things. Such as Juncker is not the president of Europe. That is not saying that everything about Brexit is bad, just that people are believing some bs put out by the gutter press. I do think that Brexit is an unnecessary action and has a high risk factor compared with remain and reform.

I keep pointing that out when things go wrong.

I don’t blame everything on Juncker and I don’t blame Germany for Greece getting in a mess. They should never have entered the Euro and Theo Waigel helped them with fiddling the books to meet the criteria.

Yes, Germany was involved, but so was their tax system, their political system and the fact that the rich moved their money out. Plus other things of course.

 

[Astute]

Most people? I did my Institute of Bankers Exams, which included Finance of Foreign Trade and Basic Accountancy, I also did my A levels which included Economics and Economic Geography. I run 2 businesses in Germany and have invested in various things including shares and rent-to-buy properties in Hamburg. I don’t pretend to be an expert in anything, but I do have a basic grasp of what’s going on.

I was also active in a trade union and am a member of an employers union. So, I have been on both sides of the fence regarding staff issues.

Are you trying to tell me that most people in banks do all of that? Of course they don't. But you try to word it as though they do. What a surprise.

 

[Astute]

Most of the time I end up correcting things. Such as Juncker is not the president of Europe. That is not saying that everything about Brexit is bad, just that people are believing some bs put out by the gutter press. I do think that Brexit is an unnecessary action and has a high risk factor compared with remain and reform.

I keep pointing that out when things go wrong.

I don’t blame everything on Juncker and I don’t blame Germany for Greece getting in a mess. They should never have entered the Euro and Theo Waigel helped them with fiddling the books to meet the criteria.

Yes, Germany was involved, but so was their tax system, their political system and the fact that the rich moved their money out. Plus other things of course.

And what have I said that you have corrected? Yes none of it.

 

[Grendel]

I said that Juncker said that in his speech about his policy agenda. That is a lot different to saying everyone is going to go along with that. At least these things are being talked about. I am for reform, however difficult and however long it takes. Quitting won’t help anyone. If anything it will encourage countries to underbid each other.

We know there is a long way to go. There is even further to go with our dependencies and after leaving there will be less pressure to do anything.

Jersey had to reform because of EU pressure. Without that they would still be running with the protection of a paper signed by the king a couple of hundred years ago.

Jersey still is good for offshore investors and your belief that the EU should be allowed to stomp in and bully it out of its democratic rights while at the same time encouraging Luxembourg and the Netherlands to keep their snouts firmly in the Brussels trough speaks volumes.

 

[Astute]

I said that Juncker said that in his speech about his policy agenda. That is a lot different to saying everyone is going to go along with that.

A lot of people don't want for the EU what Juncker wants. Look at how many have said against it.

 

[Sick Boy]

It's great to see that Irish citizens won't need to apply for settled status after Brexit. It means that I can avoid having to have a Brexit passport. Can't argue with that!!

 

[martcov]

Jersey still is good for offshore investors and your belief that the EU should be allowed to stomp in and bully it out of its democratic rights while at the same time encouraging Luxembourg and the Netherlands to keep their snouts firmly in the Brussels trough speaks volumes.

Now that is bollocks. I had a Jersey company and I had a Jersey based pension. The democratic rights you are referring to are the rights to money laundering, tax dodging, dirty money from weapon sales etc.. These „rights“ have been seriously curtailed. The Court of Jersey can no longer refuse to give information to EU countries. The Jersey firms have to tread very carefully. Our Company Secretary resigned in 2000 because he couldn’t know what we were actually doing and where. He would have got 7 years if we were proven to be up to anything criminal. The bank wouldn’t have opened my account by today‘s standards and I closed my account because they kept asking me to justify having it and where my funds were coming from. The bank moved my pension to Isle of Man. When I cashed it in via my Jersey bank account, the German taxman wrote to me asking what it was and what other income I had. My English account was linked to my Jersey account by my bank without me saying anything.

I closed my company on the advice of my Jersey company secretary. My Jersey lawyer told me anything over 100000£ would be counted as suspicious and calling your company „consulting“ or similar would automatically raise a flag.

But, maybe you know more than my lawyers and accountant in Jersey.....

 

[martcov]

And what have I said that you have corrected? Yes none of it.

I could correct you here, but I have things to do today..

 

[martcov]

A lot of people don't want for the EU what Juncker wants. Look at how many have said against it.

That is how things start... maybe they will block everything, maybe not. A start has been made. A long way to go.. and maybe it will falter out. There is a lot of discussion about the Paradise Papers and the Panama Papers. We’re being taken for a ride and now it’s out in the open. I’m for trying to do something.

 

[Grendel]

Now that is bollocks. I had a Jersey company and I had a Jersey based pension. The democratic rights you are referring to are the rights to money laundering, tax dodging, dirty money from weapon sales etc.. These „rights“ have been seriously curtailed. The Court of Jersey can no longer refuse to give information to EU countries. The Jersey firms have to tread very carefully. Our Company Secretary resigned in 2000 because he couldn’t know what we were actually doing and where. He would have got 7 years if we were proven to be up to anything criminal. The bank wouldn’t have opened my account by today‘s standards and I closed my account because they kept asking me to justify having it and where my funds were coming from. The bank moved my pension to Isle of Man. When I cashed it in via my Jersey bank account, the German taxman wrote to me asking what it was and what other income I had. My English account was linked to my Jersey account by my bank without me saying anything.

I closed my company on the advice of my Jersey company secretary. My Jersey lawyer told me anything over 100000£ would be counted as suspicious and calling your company „consulting“ or similar would automatically raise a flag.

But, maybe you know more than my lawyers and accountant in Jersey.....

Your accountant had better get onto Apple

Apple 'avoiding billions in taxes using new Jersey haven'

 

[Astute]

I could correct you here, but I have things to do today..

Why not? I have wasted my spare time replying to your comments.

 

[martcov]

Your accountant had better get onto Apple

Apple 'avoiding billions in taxes using new Jersey haven'

Well is that drug money, weapons or prostitution? I think not. And they can prove it.

Apple is not an EU company or tax payer, which is what I was talking about.

Thanks btw for confirming that we are the worst offenders through our dependencies.

Cheers to Astute. Going to get pissed in my pub now. Pub is full. Live music tonight.

 

[dutchman]

I haven’t said the EU is irrelevant to Britain. I have pointed out that it gets blamed for everything by some people and the gutter press.

I agree with you totally there.

And that is one of the best reasons for getting out of the EU as it can then can no longer be blamed for the failures of Britain's own politicians.

 

[Astute]

Apple is not an EU company or tax payer, which is what I was talking about.

Thanks btw for confirming that we are the worst offenders through our dependencies.

You tell us that you are very highly qualified in this field. So would you like to explain how we are the worst offenders?

The EU relies on the UK for three-quarters of its hedging activities, three-quarters of its foreign exchange, half its lending and half its securities transactions. For Europe’s politicians, the terms of a post-Brexit financial services deal clearly have the potential to influence the prosperity, efficiency and safety of the continent’s entire economy.

But with this comes the legality of the funds. If it looks clean then what can be done? Does every Euro out of the trillions going through London each year have to be checked? The frauds need to be stopped in the EU countries first.

Italy is a country that is costing the EU a massive amount of money through fraud. The Mafia is in on it. They claim money for farmers when the land isn't even owned by those claiming the subsidies. People are getting forced off their own land. It is estimated to have cost well over a billion Euros so far. Yet on paper it is clean money. And the EU keeps handing more over. But yes lets blame London.

 

[Ashdown]

I see the EU has shown it's true colours this last week again......they've just reverted back to the only thing that matters to them and that is grabbing as much cash from the UK as they can !

 

[Astute]

Italian mafia 'turns to wind farm investment to launder money and benefit from EU subsidies' | Daily Mail Online

How a winemaker is taking on Sicily's rural Mafia

EU subsidies 'looted' by Bulgarian mafia

Italy repays £307 million to EU after road project 'mafia corruption' exposed

Making a killing on contracts: how Italy's Mafia has plundered EU building funds

I was right about it being over 1 billion. But shocked how bad it is. We pay 5 billion a year into such payments. Between 2000 and 2012 Italy received 60 billion into such causes. So work oit how much more they have had since. If at the same rate they have received another 25 billion. Look at the last link.

These links all came on the 1st page of a google search. It is widespread fraud that they know about. And some wonder why our EU payments are so high.

 

[Kingokings204]

I see the EU has shown it's true colours this last week again......they've just reverted back to the only thing that matters to them and that is grabbing as much cash from the UK as they can !

That’s the only thing they care about. It’s only been about money. They will miss our net 12b a year of which there can’t be a debate about that.

 

[Astute]

I see the EU has shown it's true colours this last week again......they've just reverted back to the only thing that matters to them and that is grabbing as much cash from the UK as they can !

It didn't revert back. It has never left the point about the money. They want us to agree what we will pay for. But they won't say how much it will cost.

I am not sure if it is to screw every last Euro out of us they can or if it is their last attempt to get us to stay.