Breaking news: Acl call off rent talks (1 Viewer)

[Sick Boy]

Agreed ACL have SISU over a barrel. It's no good whining about it, we agreed the deal and the council presumably agreed a mortgage with the bank on the back of it.

I think the only further negotiations that ACL will now consider is with new Owners. Sisu therefore have to make a decision now either put us into admin/ sell us or pay up. They are the only options left.

It will be no good whining when we are facing relegation the League 2 next season if the club has to abide by ACL's terms.

Good luck on finding new owners, particularly those who would agree to ACL's demands.

 

---

[torchomatic]

Good point, SB. The Club is homeless and worthless, just a name. No one will come to our rescue if SISU decide to bail out. We have no assets and a greedy landlord. Not a good combo for success, is it?

 

[dongonzalos]

And a lot of people on here can only see the side of ACL. So what's the difference. Compromise with business deals. Well, no one on here has been in the meetings so how do we know what has been offered and counter-offered? We only know what SISU and ACL decide to tell us.

I know, it would be great to have actually witnessed the discussions.

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

It will be no good whining when we are facing relegation the League 2 next season if the club has to abide by ACL's terms.

Good luck on finding new owners, particularly those who would agree to ACL's demands.

And when you get your way, and SISU get match-day income, meaning they'll have had free shares, a cheap stadium, match-day income and still bugger it up. What next?

Ah, just remembered - they'll then need access to redevelop the land adjacent to the Ricoh; so when they've had that, and buggered that up; robbed the city of the chance to redevelop that side of the city and syphoned all the profits off to Mayfair, and thereafter to wherever else in the world their 'investors' live; then at that point, perhaps you'll open your eyes and see the bleeding obvious.

But by then, it'll be too late...

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

That 500k was put into the escrow account many, many years ago, in case CCFC (aka SISU) ever defaulted, which they subsequently did, proving it was a sound decision !
Since CCFC (aka SISU) started witholding any rent, they are now paying 'matchday costs' only and no rent.
If as it appears, TF is happy with the £400k rent figure, and we're just squabbling over F&B, why havent the club been paying a token rent figure (say £250K) in the meantime..which would mean the debt is now less ?

You tell me.

F&B and other revenue streams are 'a big deal', if it weren't, why aren't ACL compromising that, no, they want to get their hands on some of the action, they can't cope without CCFC, unless they change their policy, which wouldn't involve fleecing the club.

 

[Tad]

Is this really going to be the end? It's been bought up more times then I can remember now...

P.S

A massive screw you to the club owners back when they sold highfield road and agreed the rent and to ACL.

 

[dongonzalos]

Agreed ACL have SISU over a barrel. It's no good whining about it, we agreed the deal and the council presumably agreed a mortgage with the bank on the back of it.

I think the only further negotiations that ACL will now consider is with new Owners. Sisu therefore have to make a decision now either put us into admin/ sell us or pay up. They are the only options left.

What about SISU coming good on the last heads of terms they agreed, to buy out the Higgs share.
Then I assume they get the share of the income they want. (Unless I misunderstand this)

They can then try and sell the club and shares as a package.

Does anyone else think they are trying to get the above cheaper via this negotiation then go back and get the shares for half price?

 

[ccfcway]

frankly mr dear, i dont give a damn anymore

how is it that following a football club these days means you know more about Escrows than you do about the latest player you have just signed from Southampton ?

 

[torchomatic]

Cheap stadium? Erm....

And then that's where the conspiracies start. That if SISU get hold on the stadium, they'll chuck CCFC out, knock it down, redevelop and build the biggest brothel in the world. <evil laugh> Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha....

This is where it gets silly. Which is why I could never understand the fools who wrote to Mutton begging that SISU not be allowed to buy into the Ricoh because of their fantasist delusions on what would happen to the City if they did.

It's all nonsense.

And when you get your way, and SISU get match-day income, meaning they'll have had free shares, a cheap stadium, match-day income and still bugger it up. What next?

Ah, just remembered - they'll then need access to redevelop the land adjacent to the Ricoh; so when they've had that, and buggered that up; robbed the city of the chance to redevelop that side of the city and syphoned all the profits off to Mayfair, and thereafter to wherever else in the world their 'investors' live; then at that point, perhaps you'll open your eyes and see the bleeding obvious.

But by then, it'll be too late...

 

[Ashdown1]

SISU now make a decision, pay, sign or sell, which ever they decide they must know now the hard nose business plan has not worked, the spin has come to this and 5 years of bad management has brought them to this point. They got us relegated they have hired, brought and sold badly not the council, we can blame the council for all but SISU should of done a deal on day 1 regarding the rent not now when the plan for premiership never came about.

CCFC need a good rent deal or shared ownership to create money streams but the situation now gas not come today this has been a long time coming, i dont wamt the club to die, just want it sorted one way or the other.

The truth is they have messed up almost everything else that they handled as regards the club so I imagine it would suit them just fine to at least let another organisation carry the can for finally taking down the club.

 

[torchomatic]

Spot on. If they are no "big deal" then why won't ACL come out and say "since 2005 we have made £XX from F&B".

That would shut a few up. Why should ACL make money from CCFC fans? Income that is only there because the club is.

You tell me.

F&B and other revenue streams are 'a big deal', if it weren't, why aren't ACL compromising that, no, they want to get their hands on some of the action, they can't cope without CCFC, unless they change their policy, which wouldn't involve fleecing the club.

 

[Ashdown1]

1. Although I may act it, I'm not stupid. I know a huge amount of blame can be laid at SISUs door for our situation. I have said many times the Club should make a gesture and pay something to ACL.
2. As you said "the rent appears too high", it is. Very high. Therefore, I also blame ACL for taking advantage of the Club all those years ago. Yes, McGinnity and Co were stupid in agreeing to such a high figure, but someone in ACL/The Council must have put that figure on the table in the first place.

I think they're both as bad as each other in their own way. I'm simply on SISU's "side" as they are the football club.

Surely that figure was dictated by the repayments due on the loans to Yorkshire bank at the time. Goalposts have moved now a bit I grant you !

 

[dadgad]

And when you get your way, and SISU get match-day income, meaning they'll have had free shares, a cheap stadium, match-day income and still bugger it up. What next?

Ah, just remembered - they'll then need access to redevelop the land adjacent to the Ricoh; so when they've had that, and buggered that up; robbed the city of the chance to redevelop that side of the city and syphoned all the profits off to Mayfair, and thereafter to wherever else in the world their 'investors' live; then at that point, perhaps you'll open your eyes and see the bleeding obvious.

But by then, it'll be too late...

In terms of what has gone on before this is the likeliest sequence of events.
Its a bit like the judge who prior to giving somebody probation finds out about all the "previous".
After taking this into account he'd give Sisu 20 years minimum.imp:

 

[oldskyblue58]

Imagine how much more we pay for stuff now a decade later with inflation, etc. We'd be making loads.

How much have we lost out on over the last seven and a half seasons, I wonder, OSB? Do you have those figures. It would be interesting to see how much the Club has missed out on, wouldn't it?

It would be torch but i dont have that info....... you would have to factor in the £6m clear profit the club made when they sold the catering rights and compare that against the profits made from the "lost" turnover less the cost of those sales.............. wonder if in terms profit over that 7.5 years they lost out at all ?

 

[Danceswithhorses]

You tell me.

F&B and other revenue streams are 'a big deal', if it weren't, why aren't ACL compromising that, no, they want to get their hands on some of the action, they can't cope without CCFC, unless they change their policy, which wouldn't involve fleecing the club.

CCFC originally sold those rights to stop itself going bust.....and you want ACL to gift back those rights for nothing ?
Whose fleecing who ?

 

[oldskyblue58]

They put 500k into the ESCROW account as well as matchday costs.

Actually as I understand it the money in the Escrow account is from a football grant that was supposed to go against the build costs but the council agreed could be used as the rental deposit.............. so did the football club ever pay it in the first place ?

 

[oldskyblue58]

Are you sure those figures are correct? I'm not questioning you I'm questioning the accounts themselves. Do you think that the years 2003 and 2004 are a misnomer or something has been accounted differently? I can't see a few events put on in the last season leading to a tenfold increase.

can only tell you what CCFC have declared to everyone in their audited accounts. I agree the figures look out of synch to me but I assume have been checked

 

[Skyblueweeman]

An ACL spokesman said :
The situation is quite simple.
CCFC (aka SISU) owes ACL £1.3m which a court of law has confirmed our right to collect.
Our board has participated in hours of discussions with CCFC during which we have made many concessions and CCFC (aka SISU) has made none.

What's the point of even more discussions (or even expensive outside mediation for that matter), when only one side is willing to compromise ?

Not sure if anyone has responded to this as I haven't got time to go through all 12 pages but CCFC have made a comprimise due to the FFP rules coming in. How many fans (me included) have complained that the quality on the pitch has reduced as has the wage budget. Even the most Anti-SISU fans would agree that our wage bill is drastically lower than say 5 years ago (even if we were still in the Championship).

The club has reduced it's wage bill to manage the clubs finances in a better manner than they were under previous regimes (the reason why we're in this mess). We NEED to comply with these rules and are doing what we can. From my point of view, it seems as though ACL are not playing ball for some reason which isn't public knowledge.

WM

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

Not sure if anyone has responded to this as I haven't got time to go through all 12 pages but CCFC have made a comprimise due to the FFP rules coming in. How many fans (me included) have complained that the quality on the pitch has reduced as has the wage budget. Even the most Anti-SISU fans would agree that our wage bill is drastically lower than say 5 years ago (even if we were still in the Championship).

The club has reduced it's wage bill to manage the clubs finances in a better manner than they were under previous regimes (the reason why we're in this mess). We NEED to comply with these rules and are doing what we can. From my point of view, it seems as though ACL are not playing ball for some reason which isn't public knowledge.

WM

You shouldn't simply add to the bottom of a thread without reading what's gone before; as this to an extent has already been raised.

Answer me a question - if what you say is true; how can it be within the last months, and given existing revenues, Waggott offered McGoldrick higher wages than any other player in this division?

 

[fernandopartridge]

CCFC originally sold those rights to stop itself going bust.....and you want ACL to gift back those rights for nothing ?
Whose fleecing who ?

Yes - one party had a gun to their head and the gun hasn't been withdrawn still.

 

[oldskyblue58]

Whilst real figures are always welcome in these seemingly never ending debates, I don't think these are particluarly useful.....

Fans use the F&B facilites at the Ricoh far far more than they ever used those at HR.....We all used to drink in the surrounding pubs & eat from the local shops did we not?



God I miss the old dump....Take me home...Highfield Road.

I take your point

they are the only ones we have though and I only quote them because TF highlighted the last year to suit his purpose

Yes the facilities are possibly used more than HR but .....

I would guess the catering is all catering not just F&B's .............. CCFC currently sell the posh nosh in their match day packages so i doubt all of the £911k is concourse catering in 2005.

Also there is a reason I put the attendances down ........ we currently average in league 10874, the average for those 4 years is 15457 (a 30% drop) so that will affect the take

Some of the drinking etc is done in the Casino etc and ACL do not get a share of that.

the 2003 and 2004 figures seem strange, I would have thought light.

2005 is a one off year where there was a lot of leaving HR marketing being done

finally a point raised by torch the effect of inflation on the figures if turnover was £500k in 2002 then in todays terms that would be £708k

my guess is that turnover currently in concourse F&B is around 750k ........... but we have no proof one way or tuther

 

[Danceswithhorses]

Yes - one party had a gun to their head and the gun hasn't been withdrawn still.

You've lost me...where did this gun come from ?

 

[sw88]

How long before Fisher makes a statement saying "I don't know why they hae said this. Talks continue from our side......" Or something alike

 

[sw88]

You shouldn't simply add to the bottom of a thread without reading what's gone before; as this to an extent has already been raised.

Why can't we just add to it........ I have!

Sorry i dont have time read post by post and im not really fussed if im repeating whats already been said

People can just overlook my questions / points if they don't want to repeat themselves.

 

[Sky Blue Kid]

Actually as I understand it the money in the Escrow account is from a football grant that was supposed to go against the build costs but the council agreed could be used as the rental deposit.............. so did the football club ever pay it in the first place ?

The "Escrow Account"(£500k) was taken out of the account by ACL after a couple of "Missed rental payments"
SISU still have to pay this back....Isn't, and was never, theirs.
My sentiments exactly OSB58

 

[Diehard Si]

The arguing is stupid between ourselves as to who is to blame:

A few FACTS:

1.) CCFC has been mis-managed for years and nearly went out of business
2.) ACL saved the club by stepping in to bail them out with the Arena
3.) SISU saved City by taking over the club and taking on the debts
4.) The contract with was in place before SISU took over.

Everything else is just opinions and points of view/propaganda. There is no real right or wrong side, both sides feeled owed something both are guilty of bargaining for a better position.

 

[SkyBlueWomble]

If I remember rightly the catering income figures for 2003 and 2004 are effectively commission from the catering company that was outsourced to in those years. The years either side are gross income when the club looked after the catering themselves i.e. there will be corresponding cost of sales figures to. I would imagine the Elton John concert was the main factor in the huge 2005 figure.

 

[dadgad]

Diehard - Here's another fact. Sisu are required by LAW to pay the rent.
They own the club and running it "legally" is their first duty......making retrospective judgements on what was "fair" is neither here nor there and, as you say, propaganda.

 

[kepit 2 yusen]

I never thought I would say this but I'm with Sisu on this one.

Council and ACL are a bunch of muppets. The Council in particular doesn't exactly have much of a credible record in anything to be honest !

 

[SkyBlue_Bear83]

Why do ACL not want to use a third party mediator?

Maybe because the mediators conclusion would be that ACL have been pulling the clubs pants down on the rent and revenue since the deal began

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

Why do ACL not want to use a third party mediator?

Maybe because the mediators conclusion would be that ACL have been pulling the clubs pants down on the rent and revenue since the deal began

Maybe ACL think that if ever there was a time for mediation, it was last year ahead of SISU simply ceasing to pay and breaking the law?

Maybe they feel that this is simply time-wasting? And that for every month this goes on, the rent arrears get ever bigger.

Maybe they don't like that after a year of breaking the law and reneging on agreements, Fisher has only offered this avenue via the press and website; and not at the negotiating table?

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

I never thought I would say this but I'm with Sisu on this one.

Council and ACL are a bunch of muppets. The Council in particular doesn't exactly have much of a credible record in anything to be honest !

They've run rings around SISU on this one; so I don't think that statement pertinently holds water

 

[smouch1975]

CCFC originally sold those rights to stop itself going bust.....and you want ACL to gift back those rights for nothing ?
Whose fleecing who ?

I'm adding this key point back in as so many seem keen to skip over it

 

[Jack Griffin]

Why do ACL not want to use a third party mediator?

Maybe because the mediators conclusion would be that ACL have been pulling the clubs pants down on the rent and revenue since the deal began

You clearly do not understand the concept of mediation, the mediator makes NO DECISIONS, he is just there to facilitate negotiations between the negotiating parties. The best he can do is propose alternative approaches.

Personally I think the mediation line is just a delaying tactic to avoid ACL taking the legal process further.

There may be some point to binding arbitration where the arbitrator MAKES DECISONS that both parties have to comply with, but that has never been suggested.

 

[Diehard Si]

Diehard - Here's another fact. Sisu are required by LAW to pay the rent.
They own the club and running it "legally" is their first duty......making retrospective judgements on what was "fair" is neither here nor there and, as you say, propaganda.

Yes that's also fact.