Breaking news: Acl call off rent talks (1 Viewer)

[fernandopartridge]

Diehard - Here's another fact. Sisu are required by LAW to pay the rent.
They own the club and running it "legally" is their first duty......making retrospective judgements on what was "fair" is neither here nor there and, as you say, propaganda.

It isn't really retrospective when the judgement relates to the rent in the context of current circumstance.

 

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[ashbyjan]

Not sure if anyone is actually bothered but here are a few facts that the Trust has learned about the proposed deal and some background info.

1. The money in the ESCROW account was never paid into that account by CCFC, it was money allocated to the whole Ricoh development project as a grant from the FA. The amount was supposed to be £1m but as the building work was settled it was decided to cut the amount to 500k. The FA didn't want the money going directly to the club as this would have been unfair on other clubs but it was put into a Rent Guarantee Fund. This Rent fund became the ESCROW account. SISU have never put a penny into this account and neither did previous regimes.

2. Under the proposed agreement the ESCROW was to be reduced to £200K which CCFC/SISU would have had to top up

3. Rent was agreed at £400k for League 1 status with increases for Championship and Premiership. This rent included so called match day costs, except exceptional items such as underpitch heating. Club would still be responsible for costs of stewards and policing.

4. CCFC sold their right to any match day revenues when they sold their 50% stake in ACL to the Higgs Charity for £6.5m

5. The proposed deal was going to give CCFC ACL's share of the profits from the F&B, estimated to be worth around £100k per season, although the amount would vary with attendances etc

6. ACL offered to do the whole process on an open book basis so CCFC could have full access to the accounts so they could see what was going on

7. To assist CCFC with FFP ACL offered to cross invoice CCFC for the value of the revenue of the F&B so CCFC could show this in their books to offset wages against - for current season that would be around £650k

8. Under the proposed agreement CCFC would receive 900 car park spaces as part of the rent - they would be free to sell these on, estimated value to club £150k.

Hope this clears up some misconceptions etc that some of the protagonists from both sides seem keen on putting out there.

 

[Ashdown1]

my guess is that turnover currently in concourse F&B is around 750k ........... but we have no proof one way or tuther............................Supposing this figure is correct or at least close, then to have an idea of what the club is missing out on you have to remove the cost of sales plus the profit margin. Its hard to quantify the costs exactly as much of the cost base would have been the equipment installed in all the booths round the ground after the contract was agreed { Amortized}, staff costs would be fairly low, waste { Unsold products} is quite considerable though as I've seen it being emptied into wheelie bins outside. Compass would also have preferential purchasing agreements with suppliers because of their sheer size as well. My guess even with a healthy gross margin is that the club are perhaps missing out on £300,000 per season.................something it has to be said is somewhere close to the wages of either a Gary Mac, Richard Wood or David Bell.

 

[Danceswithhorses]

Not sure if anyone is actually bothered but here are a few facts that the Trust has learned about the proposed deal and some background info.

1. The money in the ESCROW account was never paid into that account by CCFC, it was money allocated to the whole Ricoh development project as a grant from the FA. The amount was supposed to be £1m but as the building work was settled it was decided to cut the amount to 500k. The FA didn't want the money going directly to the club as this would have been unfair on other clubs but it was put into a Rent Guarantee Fund. This Rent fund became the ESCROW account. SISU have never put a penny into this account and neither did previous regimes.

2. Under the proposed agreement the ESCROW was to be reduced to £200K which CCFC/SISU would have had to top up

3. Rent was agreed at £400k for League 1 status with increases for Championship and Premiership. This rent included so called match day costs, except exceptional items such as underpitch heating. Club would still be responsible for costs of stewards and policing.

4. CCFC sold their right to any match day revenues when they sold their 50% stake in ACL to the Higgs Charity for £6.5m

5. The proposed deal was going to give CCFC ACL's share of the profits from the F&B, estimated to be worth around £100k per season, although the amount would vary with attendances etc

6. ACL offered to do the whole process on an open book basis so CCFC could have full access to the accounts so they could see what was going on

7. To assist CCFC with FFP ACL offered to cross invoice CCFC for the value of the revenue of the F&B so CCFC could show this in their books to offset wages against - for current season that would be around £650k

8. Under the proposed agreement CCFC would receive 900 car park spaces as part of the rent - they would be free to sell these on, estimated value to club £150k.

Hope this clears up some misconceptions etc that some of the protagonists from both sides seem keen on putting out there.

Very interesting...that's quite a few concessions.
Many thanks ashbyjan.

 

[skybluehugh]

Cheap stadium? Erm....

And then that's where the conspiracies start. That if SISU get hold on the stadium, they'll chuck CCFC out, knock it down, redevelop and build the biggest brothel in the world. <evil laugh> Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha....

This is where it gets silly. Which is why I could never understand the fools who wrote to Mutton begging that SISU not be allowed to buy into the Ricoh because of their fantasist delusions on what would happen to the City if they did.

It's all nonsense.

And you know this how

 

[torchomatic]

And you know the contrary because? It's the main stick that people have used to beat the Club with. "If SISU get in then they will close the club down", etc etc. It's rubbish. I can't believe that grown men actually wrote to the council and circulated templates for each other to copy.

And you know this how

 

[ashbyjan]

Torchy - a year ago SISU had discussions with the Higgs Charity to buy 50% of ACL. A Heads of Agreement was signed by Charity and Joy Sepalla. A fee for the shares was agreed. SISU wanted to stage the payments over several years charity couldnt agree to this as it would have been against Charity Commission guidelines. SISU never came back with any further proposals and their exclusivity period simply expired. The claim made recently that the Council vetoed the deal is simply untrue. We have been told that last summer when there was still a degree of trust between SISU and the council a deal may well have been pushed through but SISU never came back to do a deal.

 

[oldskyblue58]

my guess is that turnover currently in concourse F&B is around 750k ........... but we have no proof one way or tuther............................Supposing this figure is correct or at least close, then to have an idea of what the club is missing out on you have to remove the cost of sales plus the profit margin. Its hard to quantify the costs exactly as much of the cost base would have been the equipment installed in all the booths round the ground after the contract was agreed { Amortized}, staff costs would be fairly low, waste { Unsold products} is quite considerable though as I've seen it being emptied into wheelie bins outside. Compass would also have preferential purchasing agreements with suppliers because of their sheer size as well. My guess even with a healthy gross margin is that the club are perhaps missing out on £300,000 per season.................something it has to be said is somewhere close to the wages of either a Gary Mac, Richard Wood or David Bell.

But I am not sure you understand what was being done................ CCFC get the matchday income in their records but it would have been cross invoiced to the EIC joint venture of ACL and Compass................. there would not be a normal profit as say selling in a shop........... the profit that CCFC would have would be ACL's share of the profit on matchday sales made by the joint venture. CCFC would need to buy back the right to income that they sold previously for it to be different.

sales 750K
Cost less profit concession from ACL 650K
Profit 100K

 

[skybluehugh]

Not sure if anyone has responded to this as I haven't got time to go through all 12 pages but CCFC have made a comprimise due to the FFP rules coming in. How many fans (me included) have complained that the quality on the pitch has reduced as has the wage budget. Even the most Anti-SISU fans would agree that our wage bill is drastically lower than say 5 years ago (even if we were still in the Championship).

The club has reduced it's wage bill to manage the clubs finances in a better manner than they were under previous regimes (the reason why we're in this mess). We NEED to comply with these rules and are doing what we can. From my point of view, it seems as though ACL are not playing ball for some reason which isn't public knowledge.

WM

They lowered the bill purely for their own ends. thinking that they could sell all our best players for profit while keeping us in the championship (Before you disagree, how much have they made selling players and how much of that has been re-invested back into the team). It then blew up in their faces when we got relagated and they have pressed the panic button, which is why they are suddenly, after 5yrs, sayin how naughty ACL/Council are to want them to pay their LEGALLY BINDING bills.

How many times since they took over have they told us the full truth with out any of their spin on things.

 

[chiefdave]

But I am not sure you understand what was being done................ CCFC get the matchday income in their records but it would have been cross invoiced to the EIC joint venture of ACL and Compass................. there would not be a normal profit as say selling in a shop........... the profit that CCFC would have would be ACL's share of the profit on matchday sales made by the joint venture. CCFC would need to buy back the right to income that they sold previously for it to be different.

sales 750K
Cost less profit concession from ACL 650K
Profit 100K

So does that mean the profit goes to CCFC rather than ACL but ACL then invoice CCFC so the club doesn't have a real increase in income but it has more revenue going through the books for the purposes of FFP?

 

[Ashdown1]

Yeah sure OSB, I was just looking at it the conventional way to see what sort of money might be being made on the F & B, I think 100K without any involvement is fair enough knowing roughly what the cost of setting up and managing this size of enterprise would be.

 

[ashbyjan]

Dave - ACL are basically handing CCFC their share of the profits - £100k approx. Seperately to help CCFC with FFP they would cross invoice the value of the sales not the profit so it looks like the revenue (the sales value) is going to CCFC and thus increasing their published turnover and inflate this for FFP purposes, its a legal accountancy fiddle.

 

[señor Santiago]

Rather see us start again than going round and round for the next 10 years trying to kill of £60m of debt. Sisu have stripped us to the bone :jerkit:

 

[Moff]

Bored...so very bored with the constant bad press.

When the fekk is this ever going to end. Couldnt give a monkeys about either side, just want my club, alive and well at the end of it all.

(Sorry shit day at work, hoped my football team might cheer me up.....I must be mad of course not)

 

[Nonleagueherewecome]

Football is not the way I'd like it, call m out of touch, but I don't think footballers should earn much more than a worker, nor sould managers, I don't think there should be transfer fees or agents in football, I dont think capitalists should put their nose into ANY sports, BUT they have, and what can I do about it!? I don't think football clubs should be allowed to run up so much debt, so I support much, much more stricter FFP, I think football, financially, needs to be more like Germany, even more radical tbh. The BBC should show every EPL game and the FL should get much more coverage and tickets should be more affordable. Football clubs should run to break-even or make profit, and should own their own stadia, that's why I support the club, local authorities, as well as capitalists should keep their nose out of the revenue streams. That's all I can recall for now, but as you can read, I don't like the way football is run, but again, what can I do, I can only make judgements within the context of the situation.

The Council were willing to buy shares and build the RICOH etc. and supported ACL with 14m, why didn't they support the club, let CCFC have the stadium and pay back the loan the council gave the club, rather than imposing a crippling rent, making zilch off our stadium on match day, the council haven't given us a fighting chance.

I also think we should adopt the trading system in USA, ironically, US sports is actually quite 'communist', with the drafting and trading players with salary caps (etc. etc.) systems they have in place.

I'm supporting the football club have supported since the tender age of 4, why should I support a the New Labour, neo-liberal council that has betrayed their own principles over my working-class football club!?

I don't like SISU, but they represent CCFC and are all we've got at this moment in time, so I'm obliged to lend them my support, especially when I think this instance, it is in the best interests of the club, also, CCFC need to make themselves attractive to investors, we're exactly the opposite ATM.

ACL are also capitalists, I'm choosing which capitalist to support, and the winner is the football club I support to which I'm emotionally bound to.

ACL may be capitalists, but not to the extent that SISU are. Venture capitalist and vulture funds are one of the things that is most rotten with capitalism. Surely the no-holds-barred exploitative type of capitalist that they are should raise some alarm bells as to their methods, motives and ethics? Are you really incapable of distinguising between scum like these and people like the Higgs Trust? SISU saw us as an easy cash cow-they fucked it up, they dug their heels in, and we are where we are today, suffering due to their greed and incompetence.


And you make the classic SISU fanboy error of assuming that they are CCFC/have CCFC's future at heart :facepalm:. Surely you can see given what they are that is quite impossible now? It's obvious that from their actions they have imperilled the club more than any other custodian, QED. Anyone who backs them is helping to sign our death warrant.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Actually as I understand it the money in the Escrow account is from a football grant that was supposed to go against the build costs but the council agreed could be used as the rental deposit.............. so did the football club ever pay it in the first place ?

Is ESCROW used with caps or not? If not, it wasn't meant to have an aggressive tone.

Who knows anymore!? As I understand though, that ESCROW was empty in the summer now has 500k (+match day costs) so maybe they have?

 

[Sky Blue Kid]

SBTaylor says....The Council were willing to buy shares and build the RICOH etc. and supported ACL with 14m, why didn't they support the club, let CCFC have the stadium and pay back the loan the council gave the club, rather than imposing a crippling rent, making zilch off our stadium on match day, the council haven't given us a fighting chance.




Could the "Council" not backing SISU be they don't trust them to do right by the football club?....Like, only wanting the Arena. My opinion of course.....Along with a lot of others too?

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

SBTaylor says....The Council were willing to buy shares and build the RICOH etc. and supported ACL with 14m, why didn't they support the club, let CCFC have the stadium and pay back the loan the council gave the club, rather than imposing a crippling rent, making zilch off our stadium on match day, the council haven't given us a fighting chance.




Could the "Council" not backing SISU be they don't trust them to do right by the football club?....Like, only wanting the Arena. My opinion of course.....Along with a lot of others too?

My posts was in regards of helping the club out during the building of the RICOH when SISU weren't even in the picture and were under the ownership of Mr. Coventry.

 

[Sky Blue Kid]

Is ESCROW used with caps or not? If not, it wasn't meant to have an aggressive tone.

Who knows anymore!? As I understand though, that ESCROW was empty in the summer now has 500k (+match day costs) so maybe they have?

Link please......btw, the Escrow will only have £500k put back into it...So highly unlikely what you "Understand" to be true.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

ACL may be capitalists, but not to the extent that SISU are. Venture capitalist and vulture funds are one of the things that is most rotten with capitalism. Surely the no-holds-barred exploitative type of capitalist that they are should raise some alarm bells as to their methods, motives and ethics? Are you really incapable of distinguising between scum like these and people like the Higgs Trust? SISU saw us as an easy cash cow-they fecked it up, they dug their heels in, and we are where we are today, suffering due to their greed and incompetence.


And you make the classic SISU fanboy error of assuming that they are CCFC/have CCFC's future at heart :facepalm:. Surely you can see given what they are that is quite impossible now? It's obvious that from their actions they have imperilled the club more than any other custodian, QED. Anyone who backs them is helping to sign our death warrant.

So, ACL are capitalists and SISU are, so you're supporting a bourgeoisie council over a proletarian club owned by bourgeoisie capitalists and you're questioning my political believes? After all, you're also a Socialist, or have socialist tendencies, so would that make you a 'Thatcherite' too? ( :thinking about: ) Of course not, because in this scenario we're choosing between two bad guys. Of course I can distinguish between the two I clearly said "I don't like SISU" in the post you quoted, surely you didn't ignore that did you!?
Did SISU see us as a 'cash-cow' OF COURSE! Investors don't invest if they can't smell profit do they? You think the Arabs who took over Man City didn't smell an opportunity of profit!? In the next 10-20 years Man City could become be the biggest club in the world if they carry on at the rate, and could actually start making some £€$¥ £€$¥. Anyone who would've took over CCFC would do so if they smelt profit, why do you think Alki David pulled out!? Clearly because he saw us as unprofitable, don't kid yourself thinking otherwise!? Hedge-fends take big risks, in this case, CCFC was the 'big risk', and has failed.

They would have the club's best interests to some extent, but only because the two parties' goals are inextricably linked, ownership of the ground and premier league football are the long term aims for CCFC, both equals massive profit for SISU and their coffers are they not? Then they'd sell to a richer investor which would be beneficial for both parties, more money into CCFC (via new investors) and big profit for SISU, both parties win don't they!?

Only 'serious' takeover bid in the SISU-era, has been from Hoffmann... We all know how 'serious' he turned out to be!

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Link please......btw, the Escrow will only have £500k put back into it...So highly unlikely what you "Understand" to be true.

This has all come from OSB (I think, was it you OSB?), earlier on in the year, he (or she) said ESCROW was empty and had been empty for 'x' amount of time, but now it has money in it and now it's the FA grant or whatever?

 

[Bennets Afro]

I read as the fa put in the original £500k and not CCFC

 

[Jack Griffin]

7. To assist CCFC with FFP ACL offered to cross invoice CCFC for the value of the revenue of the F&B so CCFC could show this in their books to offset wages against - for current season that would be around £650k

Does that mean CCFC could count all of this as part of turnover as defined by the financial fair play regulations?

 

[oldskyblue58]

got to be honest ........ havent known when escrow became empty so doubt it was me that confirmed the time.

The football grant money is the money put into the escrow account in 2005 and it is that money that has been drawn down at some point. There is no money in the escrow account now

 

[Danceswithhorses]

This has all come from OSB (I think, was it you OSB?), earlier on in the year, he (or she) said ESCROW was empty and had been empty for 'x' amount of time, but now it has money in it and now it's the FA grant or whatever?

No, he (or was it Ashbyjan?) said escrow was originally filled with FA grant money-they were to give us £1m re stadium build, but as work completed, this was reduced to £500k.
They didnt want it paid directly to club, as they thought that was unfair to other clubs, but agreed it could be put into a fund to guarantee rent ie what turned out to be the escrow fund.
This has since been drawn upon by ACL in Lieu of unpaid rent from SISU, is empty, and should legally be topped back up by SISU

 

[Ashdown1]

I doubt very much the Arabs smelt profit in Man City at all. They wanted this club as a badge of honour, a play thing for their easily gotten oil revenues. They've made a complete mockery of football and sportsmanship and club building and ploughed in millions without any chance of return, just as Abramovic did at Chelsea. Two very working class mediocre clubs for donkeys years transformed by megalomaniacs almost overnight.

 

[Bennets Afro]

So is TF claiming to of paid £800k this year, when £500k of that wasn't even ccfc money?

 

[Sky Blue Kid]

My posts was in regards of helping the club out during the building of the RICOH when SISU weren't even in the picture and were under the ownership of Mr. Coventry.

Another way of saying "Give CCFC the ground for free.....Much like SISU are trying to get the Arena for nothing atm?
Business is business. At the time you are talking about, nobody envisaged what was about to happen(Hindsight and all that)
ACL did help the club out...they threw CCFC a lifeline when it looked like we were going out of business. They didn't have to help out, but did.
Then along came the Wolves and Hyenas, stripped the club to the bone and...Voila!

 

[Danceswithhorses]

So is TF claiming to of paid £800k this year, when £500k of that wasn't even ccfc money?

see #164...OSB say this money was paid into the escrow account in 2005.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

No, he (or was it Ashbyjan?) said escrow was originally filled with FA grant money-they were to give us £1m re stadium build, but as work completed, this was reduced to £500k.
They didnt want it paid directly to club, as they thought that was unfair to other clubs, but agreed it could be put into a fund to guarantee rent ie what turned out to be the escrow fund.
This has since been drawn upon by ACL in Lieu of unpaid rent from SISU, is empty, and should legally be topped back up

I'm saying someone said (I thought it was OSB, but he doubts it was him but someone definitely said because at the time I was thinking, WTF is ESCROW!) was empty months ago, now it actually has money in it.

 

[Bennets Afro]

So in reality, we have just paid match day costs!!! More spin by TF

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Another way of saying "Give CCFC the ground for free.....Much like SISU are trying to get the Arena for nothing atm?
Business is business. At the time you are talking about, nobody envisaged what was about to happen(Hindsight and all that)
ACL did help the club out...they threw CCFC a lifeline when it looked like we were going out of business. They didn't have to help out, but did.
Then along came the Wolves and Hyenas, stripped the club to the bone and...Voila!

I never said that at all, I said the CCC could've supported the club by lending money (like they did with ACL) to support the club and the club pays back the money, and I'm guessing ACL have to pay the money back?

SISU have been asset-stripping? Really? Not at all, they've had to sell to keep our CCFC afloat and if they have, it hasn't exactly returned because they (SISU) are in a worse position before they took over! So the myth about 'lining their pockets' just isn't true, because their pockets now have a massive hole in them!

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

So in reality, we have just paid match day costs!!! More spin by TF

Well, no, because that money is still CCFC's...

 

[oldskyblue58]

SBT the escrow would have been drawn down each time a payment missed until it was empty.......... so around September time I guess the escrow was empty

the 500k that was in there was put in in 2005 when a football grant that should have gone against build costs was allowed to be used as a rental deposit. It should have paid build costs not been CCFC's revenue account money at all

The escrow account is currently empty

 

[Bennets Afro]

CCFC could never draw on it, only ACL so how is it CCFCs???