Sick Boy
Well-Known Member
The sort of Brexit he'd favour would be very different to that of the Tories though, and based on different ideology.
Oh Jeremy Corbyn (4 Viewers)
- Thread starter torchomatic
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The sort of Brexit he'd favour would be very different to that of the Tories though, and based on different ideology.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Which Tories. Certainly not europhiles like May and Hammond who really want to join the Brussels trough again.
Actually Corbyn and McDonnell are protectionists - they wouldn’t want free movement of labour or free trade and certainly no political interference.
Astute
Well-Known Member
It isn't Tories leave and Labour remain though.
It isn't the Tories wanting to leave in one way and Labour in another way.
It depends on who you want to quote. I hear on here that Labour wants to stay in and the Tories want out. But the Tory leader has always wanted to stay in and the Labour leader has always wanted out. The leaders are voted for by their members. So it could be twisted the other way round.
Nobody has a clue what will be best. If they did the vast majority of MP's would go in that direction. But peoples strong views get in the way.
To me short term we are better off being in the EU. Long term I think we will be better off out. But that is the point. I think. I don't know. Just like everyone else who is being honest.
Captain Dart
Well-Known Member
Career agitator.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
May wasn’t elected by any Tory member as leader, she got the leadership by default. Presumably by doing a deal with the likes of Fox, Goves and all the other pro brexit Tory MPs. She’s a vile woman who sold her own principles down the road to be PM.
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
Only the parliamentary members get a vote not party members.
Astute
Well-Known Member
Which members did I say?
And some say others don't jump on my posts trying to prove me wrong
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Which members did I say?
And some say others don't jump on my posts trying to prove me wrong
May never won a leadership contest. She got to the final two in a contest to see which two MP’s would go head to head on a vote of party members for the leadership. Corbyn was at least elected by party members. May gained leadership by default after the person she was running for leadership against pulled out. This means May is unelected as leader of the Tory Party.
Astute
Well-Known Member
She already had over 50% when 3 of them were in it. So when it went to two she would have got even more.
But it doesn't go with what you are trying to say. And all just to try and prove me wrong for once.
BTW Corbyn won by default. He couldn't get enough MP's to back him. But there wasn't enough in the running. So a few put their name down for him instead to make it someone else in. That is why he was massive odds. Then lots of Tory voters paid to become Labour members and voted for him. But you know all this.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
The country as a whole had a vote and she received the biggest vote from the uk public for nearly forty years.
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
When did we have a vote for the leader of the Conservative party?
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Do you not read your own links? There were five candidates for the Tory leadership not three. Tory MP’s voted on this to widdle it down to two candidates to face the vote of party members. That’s all she achieved. Getting to the final two.
Here’s a little known for Corbyns election Labour Party (UK) leadership election, 2015 - Wikipedia
Read it and learn something.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
It wasn’t the country as a whole anyway. She won 42% of the votes from a turnout of 68%.
Astute
Well-Known Member
Astute
Well-Known Member
Astute
Well-Known Member
Conservative Party leadership election, 2016
← 2005 29 June – 11 July 2016 [1] Next →
Candidate Theresa May Andrea Leadsom Michael Gove
First ballot 165 (50.2%) 66 (20.1%) 48 (14.6%)
Second ballot 199 (60.5%) 84 (25.5%) 46 (14.0%)
Members' vote Unopposed Withdrew Eliminated
Candidate Stephen Crabb Liam Fox
First ballot 34 (10.3%) 16 (4.9%)
Second ballot Withdrew Eliminated
Members' vote Withdrew Eliminated
← 2005 29 June – 11 July 2016 [1] Next →
Candidate Theresa May Andrea Leadsom Michael Gove
First ballot 165 (50.2%) 66 (20.1%) 48 (14.6%)
Second ballot 199 (60.5%) 84 (25.5%) 46 (14.0%)
Members' vote Unopposed Withdrew Eliminated
Candidate Stephen Crabb Liam Fox
First ballot 34 (10.3%) 16 (4.9%)
Second ballot Withdrew Eliminated
Members' vote Withdrew Eliminated
Grendel
Well-Known Member
The notion having a mandate from members versus a mandate from the wider public is absurd.
Ian1779
Well-Known Member
She didn't exactly get the mandate from the voting public either.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
More people voted for her than any political leader since thatcher in 79
Ian1779
Well-Known Member
There are 10 million more people in the UK since 1979 - coincidence?
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Ok she has the highest percentage vote of any leader since 1979
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Tony Blair took 43% of the votes in 97 and crucially won 418 seats. So it’s since 97 not 79.
May took 42% losing 13 seats and reducing her majority to a minority 317 seats causing her to shake the magic money tree and do a deal to save her ass.
You can try and polish it all you like but the only statistic that counts is seats and as you can see from stats percentage of votes for the most part means jack. Cameron had a smaller percentage but more seats. If you look at percentage in isolation you’re missing the point.
Astute
Well-Known Member
And Corbyn did an amazing job when a higher percentage voted Tory?
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
That’s right he did. He achieved growth in terms of both share of votes and seats. Mays growth in the share of votes counted for nothing, in comparison she went backwards.
Calling an early election has set the tone for everything since that she’s done. She’s quite possibly the worst Tory PM in living memory and by some distance. Hailing her percentage gain as some sort of victory is like Tim Fisher patting himself on back because we’re running at break even. We still went backwards. Relegation is the true measurement of success as is seats in an election.
NorthernWisdom
Well-Known Member
I won't have that while so many of us can remember Thatcher!
It's also a case of be careful what you wish for if she goes...
Grendel
Well-Known Member
The notion Thatcher was some kind of right wing zealot is the stuff of nonsense. She was the first master of spin and in reality a dribbling europhile as her ridiculous episode with the ERM proved
I'm no fan of hers but she saved the country from become a bankrupt Stalinist state where the lights would have gone out, the heating rationed in winters, the Marxist dominated unions demanding colossal wage hikes in the oligarch nationalised state industries and the dead remaining unburied. You can complain all you like but the alternative to Thatcher was poverty for all time for the vast majority of the population. You really are too old for the sixth form now
NorthernWisdom
Well-Known Member
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Thing is Thatchers reign has ended and she can be judged on both her achievements and failures and she did leave the country in a better place than she found it. May on the other hand has so far overseen failure after failure, gone from crisis to crisis not least the ill advised general election, she’s continually undermined and disrespected by her cabinet, something Maggie never had to put up with aside from the last few months and I very much doubt that May will leave the country in a better place than she found it. I suspect that we won’t be judging May on every achievements, just failure.
NorthernWisdom
Well-Known Member
I disagree, but I wouldn't sully a Corbyn thread by disagreeing on it.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately the unpalatable truth for you is no socialist government (even the spendthrift Blair administration) has managed to leave office with more people in employment than when it took office (other than the Ramsay McDonald 1924 administration which was a minority government) - the early 80's were a time when Militant tendency really meant something.
I have to chuckle though as at the forefront of such anti capitilsm were the likes of Linda Belos and Peter Tatchell. How I despised them. Now I find I rather admire the old warriors and the Corbyn led party finds these people so right wing they label them as bigots and phobic. Now that really is funny. As long as the old terrorist hugger remains on the sidelines,
NorthernWisdom
Well-Known Member
WIth a laughable statement like that, it shows your black and white tendencies.
As for the rest, the method of measuring unemployment changed radically during the Thatcher administration. Despite that, here's an unemployment graph that shows how much it rose during her time... more than doubling at certain periods.
But this is a Corbyn thread, and the deflections just won't work.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
WIth a laughable statement like that, it shows your black and white tendencies.
As for the rest, the method of measuring unemployment changed radically during the Thatcher administration. Despite that, here's an unemployment graph that shows how much it rose during her time... more than doubling at certain periods.
But this is a Corbyn thread, and the deflections just won't work.
The Thatcher administration did show an increase in unemployment as has every Labour administration (but not all Conservative ones) - yes this is a Corbyn thread and the threat needs to be identified and the ignorant warned of poverty beyond their wildest nightmares
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Well, I can only talk in personal terms and from the perspective of the child I was at the time but pre Maggie my dad was working a 3 day week, the lights kept going out, the bins weren’t getting emptied, Father Christmas was shopping at world of tat and the only reason we had a family holiday was if my grandparents sent the ferry tickets over from Ireland. During Maggies reign my dad starting working full time, the lights only went out if we forgot to put 50p in the meter, Father Christmas could all of a sudden could shop at scaletrix and Lego, we could afford our own ferry tickets and sometimes even went to Ireland twice a year, my dad past his driving test as we could actually afford to buy and run a car. We were still living in the same council house although we now had the right to buy if we wished, my dad was still doing the same job at the same company as well. Our extra expendable income didn’t come through promotions or changing companies. We even got a credit rating meaning that we didn’t have to have a telly with a coin meter on the side anymore. This was pretty typical of all my friends as well.
(Edit) either way Corbyn had a great election, Mays was an ill advised disaster.
NorthernWisdom
Well-Known Member
Well as I said, I'm not going to sully this thread beyond getting sucked in by the panto villian now and again. Let'sface it, the same circles have been going ad infinitum.
That being said, even Grendel accepts Corbyn had a great election campaign... maybe it's focussing on the positive, rather than the constant attempts to belittle that did it. Unfortunately, the latter works more often than not, but it'd be nice to think that will change, and it will become more about what people can do to help.
I still don't really know what the current government will do in terms of a grand plan. I see some bits and bobs. Whether I agree with them or not is not the issue, more the lack of a long-term strategy. I guess (tbf) whether you agreed with it or not, both Thatcher and Blair were able to set that out.
