Oh Jeremy Corbyn (1 Viewer)

[clint van damme]

For clarity: I deliberately use the word Islamist here when referring to the murdering; sharia-loving; hateful Muslims that exist. Other, lovely; reasonable; law-abiding Muslims are available.

Although I personally don't agree with Sharia law it doesn't endorse terrorism, (although the like of isis twist it to fit their ideology).
And maybe Corbyn is biding his time to see exactly who is orchestrating this uprising. Remember the 'moderates' we fell over ourselves to support in Syria and Libya?
Personally, I think the situation in Iran is different and reading what their issues are, failed financial institutions, corrupt politicians, contraction of wages and living standards, (sound familiar?!),I have every sympathy for them!
And yet again, Corbyns reaction to a situation gets more air time than the PMs who also hasn't commented, it's bizzarre!

 

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[mrtrench]

Although I personally don't agree with Sharia law it doesn't endorse terrorism, (although the like of isis twist it to fit their ideology).
And maybe Corbyn is biding his time to see exactly who is orchestrating this uprising. Remember the 'moderates' we fell over ourselves to support in Syria and Libya?
Personally, I think the situation in Iran is different and reading what their issues are, failed financial institutions, corrupt politicians, contraction of wages and living standards, (sound familiar?!),I have every sympathy for them!
And yet again, Corbyns reaction to a situation gets more air time than the PMs who also hasn't commented, it's bizzarre!

May's office commented on January 2nd:

Britain calls for meaningful debate in Iran - PM May's spokesman

Corbyn is being mentioned because he has praised the regime in the past and despite many voices asking for his comments (mostly from within his own party) now he will not speak. Nobody suspects that May agrees with the Iranian regime. People suspect that Corbyn still does - and his silence merely confirms the suspicions.

This from the mostly left Independent:

Why is Jeremy Corbyn so willing to overlook human rights abuses in Iran?

It's very much like his refusals to condemn the IRA, Assad and Maduro inter alia.

 

[clint van damme]

May's office commented on January 2nd:

Britain calls for meaningful debate in Iran - PM May's spokesman

Corbyn is being mentioned because he has praised the regime in the past and despite many voices asking for his comments (mostly from within his own party) now he will not speak. Nobody suspects that May agrees with the Iranian regime. People suspect that Corbyn still does - and his silence merely confirms the suspicions.

This from the mostly left Independent:

Why is Jeremy Corbyn so willing to overlook human rights abuses in Iran?

It's very much like his refusals to condemn the IRA, Assad and Maduro inter alia.

I missed Mays comment, (though it was very brief). I'm surprised she hasn't said more given how much her friends the Saudis must be enjoying the situation.

And the Independent may be left leaning, but it doesn't like Corbyn. Look at how many anti Corbyn articles it prints. One of it's chief writes John Rentoul is particularly vitriolic about him.

 

[mrtrench]

I missed Mays comment, (though it was very brief). I'm surprised she hasn't said more given how much her friends the Saudis must be enjoying the situation.

And the Independent may be left leaning, but it doesn't like Corbyn. Look at how many anti Corbyn articles it prints. One of it's chief writes John Rentoul is particularly vitriolic about him.

Fine - I chose the Indie because I thought you'd like it best: google, there are plenty to choose from.

 

[clint van damme]

Fine - I chose the Indie because I thought you'd like it best: google, there are plenty to choose from.

fair comment. It's just a lot of people seem to think it's right behind him and it's not. Plenty of Corbyn bashers in the Guardian as well.
I don't think a lot of the so called left wing press are as pro Corbyn as people on the right think. What they really want is some centrist blair like figure leading the party.
I read the Indy but it is very agenda driven, (like the mail,express etc), but it does have two of the finest middle east corresponents in Robert Fisk and Patrick Cockburn.

Funnily enough, Socialist worker have also criticised the party over it's silence on Iran!

 

[mrtrench]

What I want is a centrist Blair-like figure leading the party!

I know you're a fan, but there are plenty, me included, that think that he's an awful man and that he'd lead the country into disaster.

All these calls of course are an attempt to expose this - to educate people who think he's great but have never even heard of the IRA etc. I'm presently compiling a dossier of real socialist leaders/countries and what happened during their reigns. I intend to publish it on the internet once done - the centrists need to do something to counter the Momentum onslaught on the internet. The most reasonable one I've found so far is Sankara - but even he banned trade unions and the free press. That's as good as it gets so far,

 

[clint van damme]

What I want is a centrist Blair-like figure leading the party!

I know you're a fan, but there are plenty, me included, that think that he's an awful man and that he'd lead the country into disaster.

All these calls of course are an attempt to expose this - to educate people who think he's great but have never even heard of the IRA etc. I'm presently compiling a dossier of real socialist leaders/countries and what happened during their reigns. I intend to publish it on the internet once done - the centrists need to do something to counter the Momentum onslaught on the internet. The most reasonable one I've found so far is Sankara - but even he banned trade unions and the free press. That's as good as it gets so far,

I'm not a fan! He's a politician. But I don't believe he could do worse than the current mob. But the hypocrisy surrounding him from the right is astonishing.

You're proving my point. You could compile a dossier on the NHS crisis that has happened this winter.
You could compile a dossier on all of the tories dodgy political friends and allies.
You could compile a dossier on the the findings of the Panama papers or the declassified papers released over Christmas which revealed British security services tried coerce the UVF to assassinate the head of a sovereign state.
You could compile a dossier on the increasing wealth gap in this country, or the 13,000 increase homelessness in the last year or the spiralling crime rates due to police numbers being reduced by 20,000, or the 200 million government bail out of Bransons east coast rail franchise, I could go on and on and on! But you're more worried about a man who I doubt will ever be in charge, I find it baffling.

 

[mrtrench]

I'm not a fan! He's a politician. But I don't believe he could do worse than the current mob. But the hypocrisy surrounding him from the right is astonishing.

You're proving my point. You could compile a dossier on the NHS crisis that has happened this winter.
You could compile a dossier on all of the tories dodgy political friends and allies.
You could compile a dossier on the the findings of the Panama papers or the declassified papers released over Christmas which revealed British security services tried coerce the UVF to assassinate the head of a sovereign state.
You could compile a dossier on the increasing wealth gap in this country, or the 13,000 increase homelessness in the last year or the spiralling crime rates due to police numbers being reduced by 20,000, or the 200 million government bail out of Bransons east coast rail franchise, I could go on and on and on! But you're more worried about a man who I doubt will ever be in charge, I find it baffling.

It's a matter of perspective. Nothing in your list could come close to, say, the estimated up to 78 million that Mao killed - either through assassination or starvation. Or even what is happening in Venezuela today. Nothing is perfect. If you want to find things to complain about with any country you can find them. Picking on *relatively* small things and deciding "OK, let's throw that baby out of that bathwater" as a conclusion - well...

I started to refute some of your points but stopped because it would take the conversation elsewhere. So I'm sticking with this one point: every country has some problems - that's life. However there are better ways to solve them than real socialism... which doesn't actually solve the problems and adds far worse ones too.

 

[mrtrench]

One interesting pattern I'm finding so far with socialist dictators (but I'm only a few in so I don't know if it will continue) is that they were born into relative wealth but failed to progress with their education. Could it be a case that they had extreme ambition but not the ability to realise it? So they follow the formula of criticising everything to get popular support from the poorest in society and power with sociopath determination. Remind you of anyone currently in politics?

 

[clint van damme]

It's a matter of perspective. Nothing in your list could come close to, say, the estimated up to 78 million that Mao killed - either through assassination or starvation. Or even what is happening in Venezuela today. Nothing is perfect. If you want to find things to complain about with any country you can find them. Picking on *relatively* small things and deciding "OK, let's throw that baby out of that bathwater" as a conclusion - well...

I started to refute some of your points but stopped because it would take the conversation elsewhere. So I'm sticking with this one point: every country has some problems - that's life. However there are better ways to solve them than real socialism... which doesn't actually solve the problems and adds far worse ones too.

To tolerate what is going on in this country today because you think the alternative is something akin to Maos China is silly but OK, so not to get bogged down in tit for tat, you're point about trying to counteract Momentum shows what is wrong with the Labour party and why the tories are getting away with murder, (literally).
The centre and left of the party need to work together to defeat the tories, they can in fight all they like until it comes to general election time but they need to pull together when it matters.

This is what the tories do and are very good at. They are in a perpetual state of civil war but no when to put a lid on it and fight for a common goal. Labour needs to do the same.

We have a man in charge of the NHS who wrote a paper on privatising it.
We have just put a man in on the board of university regulators whose list of inappropriate behaviour is seemingly endless.
A Brexit minister who tried to circumnavigate parliament, a transport tsar who resigned for for being warned by two ministers about trying to bring attention to a multi million bail out of a rail franchise - in my book, these, and the other things I've listed aren't relatively small things, they are things we should be shouting from the roof tops from and fighting and some of them transcend party politics, particularly the antics of hunt and davis.

 

[clint van damme]

One interesting pattern I'm finding so far with socialist dictators (but I'm only a few in so I don't know if it will continue) is that they were born into relative wealth but failed to progress with their education. Could it be a case that they had extreme ambition but not the ability to realise it? So they follow the formula of criticising everything to get popular support from the poorest in society and power with sociopath determination. Remind you of anyone currently in politics?

but their are plenty of right wing dictators with blood on their hands.
I won't name them and start a tit for tat argument because it gets like the arguments between atheist and theists where they try and pin one blood bath after another on some type of religion or some godless regime depending on their point of view and it becomes a ridiculous contest where people appear to be actually revelling in the body count.

And Mao was a communist.

 

[mrtrench]

I don't tolerate things that are wrong, I am prioritising. Corbyn is the clear and present extreme danger.

I do not condone right wing dictators either - I'm a centrist. If we had an extreme right wing party that looked like it could take power I'd do exactly the same.

Communist/real Socialist is just branding. We know that Corbyn/McDonnell/Abbott... support these people. McDonnell's red book given to Osborn; Abbott saying that Mao did more good than harm. And last week Corbyn visited Trotsky's grave.

 

[clint van damme]

I don't tolerate things that are wrong, I am prioritising. Corbyn is the clear and present extreme danger.

I do not condone right wing dictators either - I'm a centrist. If we had an extreme right wing party that looked like it could take power I'd do exactly the same.

Communist/real Socialist is just branding. We know that Corbyn/McDonnell/Abbott... support these people. McDonnell's red book given to Osborn; Abbott saying that Mao did more good than harm. And last week Corbyn visited Trotsky's grave.

Corbyn didn't. But that's pretty revealing about where you get your news from.

 

[mrtrench]

Corbyn didn't. But that's pretty revealing about where you get your news from.

You're sniping. OK, it's not proven that Corbyn visited Trotsky's grave, there is just circumstantial evidence that he did. However that's not really the point is it? He and his team admire all of these Socialists/Communists - even if they were murdering dictators.

 

[rondog1973]

You're sniping. OK, it's not proven that Corbyn visited Trotsky's grave, there is just circumstantial evidence that he did. However that's not really the point is it? He and his team admire all of these Socialists/Communists - even if they were murdering dictators.

As opposed to the present government who will happily do business and regard as friends murdering dictators (Saudis, Netanyahu's ultra zionists)?

 

[NorthernWisdom]

I thought Trotsky was murdered by a dictator, rather than being a murdering dictator?

Anyway, I'd visit Trotsky's grave were I in the area. Same as I've looked on a statue of Winston Churchill when in London...

 

[mrtrench]

Ron, do you really, honestly, in your heart and your brain, believe that the present government is equivalent to Pol Pot; Mao; Stalin; Maduro; Tito; Trotsky; Lenin; Ulbricht and so on and so on?

If you do, I'm not debating with you. There is a point at which the person who continues to make valid points is the stupid one.
If you don't, why make the point; given that I've already explained it's about priorities?

 

[NorthernWisdom]

Pol Pot; Mao; Stalin; Maduro; Tito; Trotsky; Lenin; Ulbricht

To conflate all those together is remarkably simplistic.

 

[clint van damme]

You're sniping. OK, it's not proven that Corbyn visited Trotsky's grave, there is just circumstantial evidence that he did. However that's not really the point is it? He and his team admire all of these Socialists/Communists - even if they were murdering dictators.

Zelo Street: Corbyn Trotsky Homage - FAKE NEWS

It's not sniping. It just shows the farce of a situation we are in in this country.
The NHS has been in crisis over Christmas. NHS staff have been all over social media trying to bring it to the publics attention. Jeremy Hunt has been as usual absolutely useless but the mainstream media print bullshit like this, I despair.

And if someone like you gets taken in by it then what chance have we got?

People are dying in this country because of government policy. Billionaires have voted to take benefits off of disabled people while their stately homes and businesses receive subsidies, what is it going to take for people to wake up?

We will never have a communist or even a socialist government in this country but we need to move away from this neo liberal cess pit we are becoming.

 

[mrtrench]

I thought Trotsky was murdered by a dictator, rather than being a murdering dictator?

Anyway, I'd visit Trotsky's grave were I in the area. Same as I've looked on a statue of Winston Churchill when in London...

Trotsky was responsible for many deaths himself - even though he lost out on the 'who's the biggest psychopath' pissing contest. But yeah, I'd go if I was in the area too. But then I haven't praised these regimes have I? So it would be pretty clear that I was on a tourism thing rather than a pilgrimage.

 

[mrtrench]

To conflate all those together is remarkably simplistic.

Pick one. Is May equivalent to any one of them?

 

[NorthernWisdom]

We will never have a communist or even a socialist government in this country but we need to move away from this neo liberal cess pit we are becoming.

This indeed is true.

We also need to move away from the Americanised scaremongering that everything seemingly 'left' = communist.

And let's face it, if we were taking Marx literally, then he was absolutely for capitalism as a necessary stage of improvement of the people, on the route to communism. A literal Marxist reading is nothing like that adopted by Stalin any more than Nietzsche shouldn't be read because Hitler turned out to be a big fan!

 

[mrtrench]

Zelo Street: Corbyn Trotsky Homage - FAKE NEWS

It's not sniping. It just shows the farce of a situation we are in in this country.
The NHS has been in crisis over Christmas. NHS staff have been all over social media trying to bring it to the publics attention. Jeremy Hunt has been as usual absolutely useless but the mainstream media print bullshit like this, I despair.

And if someone like you gets taken in by it then what chance have we got?

People are dying in this country because of government policy. Billionaires have voted to take benefits off of disabled people while their stately homes and businesses receive subsidies, what is it going to take for people to wake up?

We will never have a communist or even a socialist government in this country but we need to move away from this neo liberal cess pit we are becoming.

You are moving on. I'm not going to bite yet until we've cleared up whether Corbyn is a major threat and the imperfections in the UK today are even slightly comparable.

 

[NorthernWisdom]

Pick one. Is May equivalent to any one of them?

Pretty much like Stalin actually, retreating from the idea of a global, worldwide co-operation into a discrete manufactured 'nation' where certain ideologies end up dominant through use of the media...

The point being, you may as well have added Pinochet, Peron, Salazar too.

 

[mrtrench]

This indeed is true.

We also need to move away from the Americanised scaremongering that everything seemingly 'left' = communist.

And let's face it, if we were taking Marx literally, then he was absolutely for capitalism as a necessary stage of improvement of the people, on the route to communism. A literal Marxist reading is nothing like that adopted by Stalin any more than Nietzsche shouldn't be read because Hitler turned out to be a big fan!

Nietzsche shouldn't be read because it's boring and inconsequential. I seldom fail to finish a book, but 'Beyond Good and Evil' succeeded.

 

[clint van damme]

Ron, do you really, honestly, in your heart and your brain, believe that the present government is equivalent to Pol Pot; Mao; Stalin; Maduro; Tito; Trotsky; Lenin; Ulbricht and so on and so on?

If you do, I'm not debating with you. There is a point at which the person who continues to make valid points is the stupid one.
If you don't, why make the point; given that I've already explained it's about priorities?

Pol Pot - the same one who was endorsed by Thatcher? Many of the worse dictators were installed by the West, often at the expense of democracies. They weren't adverse to installing communists when it suited them either.
The conversation started off on Iran - look what happened there in 1953.

 

[rondog1973]

Ron, do you really, honestly, in your heart and your brain, believe that the present government is equivalent to Pol Pot; Mao; Stalin; Maduro; Tito; Trotsky; Lenin; Ulbricht and so on and so on?

If you do, I'm not debating with you. There is a point at which the person who continues to make valid points is the stupid one.
If you don't, why make the point; given that I've already explained it's about priorities?

No, you've missed the point completely.

You have a slightly hysterical opinion on Corbyn, seemingly equating him with the list of genocidal dictators you listed.

I pointed out the present government regards as friends and allies governments ran by, if not yet to the point of outright genocide, oppressive murderous dictatorships.

 

[mrtrench]

Pretty much like Stalin actually.

Glad we've cleared that up. I'm off.

 

[clint van damme]

Pretty much like Stalin actually, retreating from the idea of a global, worldwide co-operation into a discrete manufactured 'nation' where certain ideologies end up dominant through use of the media...

The point being, you may as well have added Pinochet, Peron, Salazar too.

and surely in 2018 we should be looking for a bit more from our PM than they're better than Pol Pot or Pinochet?!

To conflate all those together is remarkably simplistic.

True. Tito fought to keep the 'tribes' of the Balkans united, (brotherhood and unity!) and once he went it ultimately fell apart in the 90s. I don't think we've heard the end of that one.

 

[NorthernWisdom]

Glad we've cleared that up. I'm off.

Well you asked!

You can find similarities between everybody if you choose to look hard enough.

After all, May's a righty, pretty much like, well, Pinochet, Salazar, Franco.

But it'd be the work of a madman to equate all Conservative leaning politicians with them, much as it's the work of a madman to equate all left politicians with a random list of communists... many of whom were radically opposed to one another's viewpoints anyway. Trotsky, for example, was more opposed to Stalin than Chamberlain or Churchill.

 

[rondog1973]

Pol Pot - the same one who was endorsed by Thatcher? Many of the worse dictators were installed by the West, often at the expense of democracies. They weren't adverse to installing communists when it suited them either.
The conversation started off on Iran - look what happened there in 1953.

Don't forget Pinochet too, a 'great friend of the UK' according to Maggie....

 

[clint van damme]

You are moving on. I'm not going to bite yet until we've cleared up whether Corbyn is a major threat and the imperfections in the UK today are even slightly comparable.

I don't think Corbyn is anywhere near the threat you make out and would not do the damage to the country that the tories are doing so the imperfections of the UK today need sorting and are highly damaging to the country as far as I'm concerned.
He will not become PM anyway, I'm convinced of that. You will get your wish of a centrist leader, (Umana or Burnham perhaps), and by the time they fight their first election the country will be in such a state they will win and be the next Labour PM, that's my theory anyway for what it's worth.

 

[NorthernWisdom]

Don't forget Pinochet too, a 'great friend of the UK' according to Maggie....

And yet, would I run down May by suggesting she was just like Pinochet because of other Conservative politicians' views, or the fact that May and Pinochet both had/have a right leaning agenda?

Nope.

 

[clint van damme]

And yet, would I run down May by suggesting she was just like Pinochet because of other Conservative politicians' views, or the fact that May and Pinochet both had/have a right leaning agenda?

Nope.

You're too honourable sir!

 

[NorthernWisdom]

You're too honourable sir!

It seems to be the rather simplistic way we play politics - split into 'left' and well... 'others' and then decide anyone with a left leaning outlook is a murderous communist!

(We won't even get into the debate as to how Stalin took a movement and corrupted it, as that would be rather boring really)