London Bridge

Astute

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Aug 2, 2011
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Is that the case? Wow that’s a brilliant quandary for Grendel to answer
He murdered a 21 year old woman with learning difficulties. The police had to tell her parents that not only was he out but he was going to be all over the media.
 

Otis

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Mar 26, 2011
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Probably because he was considered safe - he could have left weapons outside and gone back to get them

He was in workshops moving with students telling people about life in prison
He she never have been considered safe. They should have listened to the judge from 2012.
 
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Sky Blue Pete

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Nov 24, 2012
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He murdered a 21 year old woman with learning difficulties. The police had to tell her parents that not only was he out but he was going to be all over the media.
Well more may be dead if he hadn’t been on day release. That’s such a moral maze isn’t it?
 

Sky Blue Pete

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Nov 24, 2012
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He murdered a 21 year old woman with learning difficulties. The police had to tell her parents that not only was he out but he was going to be all over the media.
And I’m sorry I’m going to edit my comment. Brilliant is a really shitty word to have used in this context - sorry
 

Astute

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And I’m sorry I’m going to edit my comment. Brilliant is a really shitty word to have used in this context - sorry
Might even be the one who ran across the road and took a knife off him.
 

Sky Blue Pete

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Definite hero then no question. Maybe in a small way paying part of his debt to society. Doesn’t bring their daughter back though
 

Otis

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Definite hero then no question. Maybe in a small way paying part of his debt to society. Doesn’t bring their daughter back though
Nope. This incident yesterday has to be treated in complete isolation.
 

Otis

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Never is a long time but not so soon . Seems a perverse decision
True. I actually meant he should never have been released now. This should have never happened. 20 or 30 years down the line, who knows, but this was way, way too soon.
 

Sky_Blue_Dreamer

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Aug 16, 2018
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Would two people be alive today if he’d been hung initially?
If one of the guys that tackled him was a murderer then we'd have hung him too. So he wouldn't have been there to help and there may have been more people killed.

What about the ex-gang members that now run rehabilitation services and charities to try and prevent more kids joining gangs. The kids are going to listen to them more than the likes of us who have no idea of that kind of culture.
 

chiefdave

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Being realistic if capital punishment is going to be reintroduced it is going to take years of debate, legal challenges etc. The more pressing issue is why are people convicted of these crimes being allowed to wander the streets. If, as has been claimed, it is purely due to budget cuts that is something that can be immediately addressed.

Of course we used to have the option of keeping people locked up indefinitely if they were considered a danger to the public but that was removed in 2012. Maybe that needs to be looked at again and the funding put in place to allow it to be properly implemented.
 

Otis

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If one of the guys that tackled him was a murderer then we'd have hung him too. So he wouldn't have been there to help and there may have been more people killed.

What about the ex-gang members that now run rehabilitation services and charities to try and prevent more kids joining gangs. The kids are going to listen to them more than the likes of us who have no idea of that kind of culture.
Yup.

Totally opposed to the death penalty and the knowledge that there is always human error and will always be mistakes, is reason enough.

The killing of one wrongly convicted person is one too many.
 

Sky Blue Pete

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Nov 24, 2012
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Being realistic if capital punishment is going to be reintroduced it is going to take years of debate, legal challenges etc. The more pressing issue is why are people convicted of these crimes being allowed to wander the streets. If, as has been claimed, it is purely due to budget cuts that is something that can be immediately addressed.

Of course we used to have the option of keeping people locked up indefinitely if they were considered a danger to the public but that was removed in 2012. Maybe that needs to be looked at again and the funding put in place to allow it to be properly implemented.
Yep probation not involved in decision to release him but they would have been managing the licence conditions. No funding and nowhere near enough time to safely risk asses this sort of risk I don’t think.
 

Sky_Blue_Dreamer

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And now you have more info

Do you think a murder of disabled girl is a hero?
You can do horrific and heroic things.

What if one of the people that helped disarmed the terrorist yesterday has no current convictions. Are they are hero? What if they later go on to murder someone? Do they then stop being a hero for their actions yesterday and just become a monster? Would everyone calling them a hero now be considered apologists for a murderer?

Do his actions yesterday make up for his horrific actions against the disabled girl? Of course they don't. But then do his horrific actions mean that his actions yesterday that potentially saved people's lives were not brave and heroic?
 
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Sky Blue Pete

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You can do horrific and heroic things.

What if one of the people that helped disarmed the terrorist yesterday has no current convictions. Are they are hero? What if they later go on to murder someone? Do they then stop being a hero for their actions yesterday and just become a monster? Would everyone calling them a hero now be considered apologists for a murderer?

Do his actions yesterday make up for his horrific actions against the disabled girl? Of course they don't. But then do his horrific actions mean that his actions yesterday that potentially saved people's lives were not brave and heroic?
Yep completely agree. Maybe the time has come to decide as a society what we want though. If rehabilitation is a myth then let’s not bother locking people up. Grendel would you prefer hanging or firing squad or maybe ripped apart by dogs for really horrible crimes
 

covcity4life

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So is the terrorist a hero if you now found out he saved an old ladies life on his way to london bridge?
 

Otis

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And now you have more info

Do you think a murder of disabled girl is a hero?
How does your logic work exactly?

So, if you were there yesterday, not knowing anything and you witnessed the intervention, it would be 'Well done, mate, you're a hero.'

He then responds with 'I was convicted for murder some years ago.'

You would reply with 'Then you are not a hero at all.'

It makes zero sense. As has been stated, the two are not mutually exclusive.

One horrific action, one heroic. It merely makes this one action an heroic act. This one single instance.
 

Sky Blue Pete

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So is the terrorist a hero if you now found out he saved an old ladies life on his way to london bridge?
You need to distinguish between identifying people by what they do and say. Each of us is a series of decisions and actions so a person who makes many terrible decisions can do a good thing and a person who has made a series of wonderful decisions can do a bad thing. It’s life
 

covcity4life

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Apr 16, 2010
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How does your logic work exactly?

So, if you were there yesterday, not knowing anything and you witnessed the intervention, it would be 'Well done, mate, you're a hero.'

He then responds with 'I was convicted for murder some years ago.'

You would reply with 'Then you are not a hero at all.'

It makes zero sense. As has been stated, the two are not mutually exclusive.

One horrific action, one heroic. It merely makes this one action an heroic act. Merely in this instance.
You make no sense otis

I hwve never said the act wasnt heroic. I saod he is not a hero

Just answer my question. Would you call the terorrist a hero if you found out he had saved someone's life earlier that day?
 

covcity4life

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You need to distinguish between identifying people by what they do and say. Each of us is a series of decisions and actions so a person who makes many terrible decisions can do a good thing and a person who has made a series of wonderful decisions can do a bad thing. It’s life
So would you call the terrorist a hero?

Why you both dancing around my question?
 

Otis

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Mar 26, 2011
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You make no sense otis

I hwve never said the act wasnt heroic. I saod he is not a hero

Just answer my question. Would you call the terorrist a hero if you found out he had saved someone's life earlier that day?
If it was a heroic thing he did, he would be a hero for that one instance yes, if he risked all to save someone's life.

You are looking at it too globally, as if in saying he is a hero for this, he is a hero in anything and everything.

What I said makes perfect sense.

We need to look at this one incident in isolation for what this man did yesterday.
 

covcity4life

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Apr 16, 2010
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Now you guys gone from hes a hero to finnally lets talk about heroic actions

Took a while but noe we on same page

Your welcome