Fuel prices (2 Viewers)

[fernandopartridge]

I presume a lot depends on what mileage is being done. I remember reading an article which suggested that an EV doesn’t start having a positive footprint compared to a new petrol until 40k miles due to higher emissions in production. I think this changes depending on how charging electricity is generated and obviously will vary by vehicle. There’s also battery replacement requirements in future

Don’t get me wrong my next car will no doubt be an EV and if I did more miles I’d probably have one already but I’ll continue with my 15 plate diesel until I’m banned from Birmingham centre as I only do 3-4K pa

I still wonder if EVs are the answer…we’ll probably be told in 5 years they’re worse for the planet ! The real solution is and always has been better public transport infrastructure and people reducing car use

Completely agree on the last paragraph, much more walking, cycling and public transport is the answer long term

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[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

I presume a lot depends on what mileage is being done. I remember reading an article which suggested that an EV doesn’t start having a positive footprint compared to a new petrol until 40k miles due to higher emissions in production. I think this changes depending on how charging electricity is generated and obviously will vary by vehicle. There’s also battery replacement requirements in future

Don’t get me wrong my next car will no doubt be an EV and if I did more miles I’d probably have one already but I’ll continue with my 15 plate diesel until I’m banned from Birmingham centre as I only do 3-4K pa

I still wonder if EVs are the answer…we’ll probably be told in 5 years they’re worse for the planet ! The real solution is and always has been better public transport infrastructure and people reducing car use

I have a feeling EV's won't be seen as quite the answer they are now either, due to the batteries and the processes required in getting hold of the materials, but I guess at the moment it's solve the most pressing crisis first. With all the lithium are we going to see more people struggling to show emotion?


I'm no scientist/techie but hydrogen fuel cells intrigue me.

 

[Nick]

Diesels were the answer not long back

 

[Terry Gibson's perm]

I think I will change to electric next year if the deals on motobility are as good as they are now as we are spending a fortune on fuel. Even considering solar panels but not sure if the costs warrant it.

 

[Grendel]

Whatever don’t get a PHEV

 

[Terry Gibson's perm]

Whatever don’t get a PHEV

My had to look up what it is as I had no idea. What is the issue with that style please.

 

[NorthernWisdom]

My had to look up what it is as I had no idea. What is the issue with that style please.

They're less economical on fuel over the long distances as the battery makes them heavier, although with range in electric being poor, I guess they compensate for that? What I don't know if if congestion zones that only let electric vehicles in count them as exempt. I suspect not!

 

[Grendel]

They're less economical on fuel over the long distances as the battery makes them heavier, although with range in electric being poor, I guess they compensate for that? What I don't know if if congestion zones that only let electric vehicles in count them as exempt. I suspect not!

It’s a CO2 con for company cars as you say it guzzles more gas than a normal car!

 

[thekidfromstrettoncamp]

Daughter has a mobility car it needs renewing lives in a small seaside village in Cornwall travelling up Exeter tomorrow to look for her next 1 don't know how they will sort her out as all the cars available are electric.There are no power points in village and probably no where to put 1 unless an arangement can be made with the owner of the car park ( a car park where you pay over £1000 a year have no guaranteed space) she lives in a "street" you cannot get a car within 100 yards of her house.Think it might be an interesting day

 

[clint van damme]

Daughter has a mobility car it needs renewing lives in a small seaside village in Cornwall travelling up Exeter tomorrow to look for her next 1 don't know how they will sort her out as all the cars available are electric.There are no power points in village and probably no where to put 1 unless an arangement can be made with the owner of the car park ( a car park where you pay over £1000 a year have no guaranteed space) she lives in a "street" you cannot get a car within 100 yards of her house.Think it might be an interesting day

Well good luck, hope you get a decent ent outcome.

 

[pipkin73]

I was chatting to a friend about this the other day. Where i live it is all complexes, so you can't just buy an electric vehicle and of you go.
Supermarkets now have a few spaces for charging them, but i can't be going to one every day to charge my car. The only way they work out here is every space has the option, but that would cost a fortune to do.
You can't even wash/Hoover your car roadside, you have to legally go to a car wash.
I have a Jeep Wrangler 1997, worth a lot of money before Covid collapsed the market.
I need to clean it up to sell it and pay off debts, i have to go to a petrol station to clean it inside and outside,
Considering a lot of foreign places are the same, if we can't even clean our cars near our house, what chance charging them.

 

[robbiekeane]

Completely agree on the last paragraph, much more walking, cycling and public transport is the answer long term

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Just bought a cycle because I’m having to go back to the office about two days a week and want to ensure I get a workout in those two days.

Absolutely love it

 

[Grendel]

Buying A New Car Is Greener Than Driving An Old One...Really

You've probably heard it at some point: A friend claims his older vehicle is far greener than the new car with much higher fuel economy you just bought That's because, he says, the old car didn't require all the energy and natural resources your car consumed as it was built. But is that older...

www.greencarreports.com

And that’s comparing ICE to a more efficient ICE. An electric car payback would be less than a couple of years in all likelihood.

Says there 96% of a cars carbon footprint over its lifecycle is fuel related.

I couldn’t work this out at first as to why it didn’t make sense

Now I see it. It’s not comparing battery life and battery production emissions to combustion engine vehicle life is it?

 

[OffenhamSkyBlue]

Buy an electric, self-charging hybrid, PHEV or ICE, whatever you want, but do more research than Grendel has before you do.
I have just bought a PHEV with a real world range of 50 miles. I can charge at home, drive to work on pure electric, charge on my employer's charging network and drive home again, on electric only. No fossil fuel emissions during my commute (other than what it takes to generate the electricity). My particular make keeps some of its charge in reserve so it behaves like a self-charging hybrid once the pure EV range has run out, giving in excess of 60mpg.
It also does 0-60 in under 6 seconds.

 

[OffenhamSkyBlue]

Anyway, back to the subject of fuel prices ...
Friday in Warwick Road, Kenilworth, both the Shell and Texaco were selling E10 at £179.9. Today in Evesham, Tesco are still at £187.9.
I understand someone influential has asked the Competition & Markets Authority to investigate the supermarkets who appear to be profiteering by not reducing their prices as quickly as the independents and franchises, unlike previous practices.
Anyone know what Tesco at Cannon Park are charging today?

 

[Grendel]

Buy an electric, self-charging hybrid, PHEV or ICE, whatever you want, but do more research than Grendel has before you do.
I have just bought a PHEV with a real world range of 50 miles. I can charge at home, drive to work on pure electric, charge on my employer's charging network and drive home again, on electric only. No fossil fuel emissions during my commute (other than what it takes to generate the electricity). My particular make keeps some of its charge in reserve so it behaves like a self-charging hybrid once the pure EV range has run out, giving in excess of 60mpg.
It also does 0-60 in under 6 seconds.

I’ve done plenty of research - PHEV vehicles don’t save on emissions and generally are worse than combustion engines on fuel - pretty much every critique acknowledges that - I’ve test drove a Jag and a BMW and both dealers were at pains to point out that unless you spend all the time in an urban driving environment you’ll guzzle more gas - on a motorway considerably more - and clearly you don’t just do urban driving - it’s always been known as a CO2 con in the industry and just a way to get company cars on fleets

Plug-in hybrids are a 'wolf in sheep's clothing' - BBC News

Although marketed as a green option, the cars cause more polluting than is claimed, campaigners say.

www.bbc.com

 

[OffenhamSkyBlue]

From that article:-
"According to this data-set the lifetime emissions of a plug-in hybrid average around 28 tonnes of CO2.
By comparison, the average petrol or diesel car is estimated to emit between 39 and 41 tonnes of CO2 from fuel during its lifetime, a conventional hybrid would typically emit more like 33 tonnes."

So still far less lifetime CO2 produced than ICE, you'll note. Sure, it ain't carbon zero, but i am trying to do my bit.

The motor industry were quoted in that BBC article as believing the data were already 2 years out of date and that technology of PHEVs had moved on. That was 2 years ago, and yet more advances have been made.

And yes, a lot of my commute is extra-urban, but the range of mine allows me to do all of it without emitting any CO2. If i am going on a longer journey, i have the option of saving some battery power so that if i am in an urban environment at the end of the drive, i can maintain its air quality by using EV only.

I'm happy with the choices i have made.

 

[shmmeee]

From that article:-
"According to this data-set the lifetime emissions of a plug-in hybrid average around 28 tonnes of CO2.
By comparison, the average petrol or diesel car is estimated to emit between 39 and 41 tonnes of CO2 from fuel during its lifetime, a conventional hybrid would typically emit more like 33 tonnes."

So still far less lifetime CO2 produced than ICE, you'll note. Sure, it ain't carbon zero, but i am trying to do my bit.

The motor industry were quoted in that BBC article as believing the data were already 2 years out of date and that technology of PHEVs had moved on. That was 2 years ago, and yet more advances have been made.

And yes, a lot of my commute is extra-urban, but the range of mine allows me to do all of it without emitting any CO2. If i am going on a longer journey, i have the option of saving some battery power so that if i am in an urban environment at the end of the drive, i can maintain its air quality by using EV only.

I'm happy with the choices i have made.

A lot of the studies cited are from places with a much dirtier grid than us as well. It’s clearly nuts to claim keeping ICE is better for the environment. As I said before if you accept you’re going to have to replace all the cars anyway then there’s clearly no benefit in waiting around for a few more years.

 

[Grendel]

A lot of the studies cited are from places with a much dirtier grid than us as well. It’s clearly nuts to claim keeping ICE is better for the environment. As I said before if you accept you’re going to have to replace all the cars anyway then there’s clearly no benefit in waiting around for a few more years.

All cars aren’t in reality going to be replaced anyway are they?

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Anyway, back to the subject of fuel prices ...
Friday in Warwick Road, Kenilworth, both the Shell and Texaco were selling E10 at £179.9. Today in Evesham, Tesco are still at £187.9.
I understand someone influential has asked the Competition & Markets Authority to investigate the supermarkets who appear to be profiteering by not reducing their prices as quickly as the independents and franchises, unlike previous practices.
Anyone know what Tesco at Cannon Park are charging today?

You got proper ripped off there!

 

[Terry Gibson's perm]

179.7 for unleaded at Asda in Tamworth today and Sainsbury’s 179.9

 

[shmmeee]

All cars aren’t in reality going to be replaced anyway are they?

I don’t see why people would drive a more expensive car which ICE will be once EV is standard. I’d expect by 2050 you won’t see ICE outside of hobbyists.

 

[OffenhamSkyBlue]

You got proper ripped off there!

Damn those pesky decimal points!!

 

[Grendel]

I don’t see why people would drive a more expensive car which ICE will be once EV is standard. I’d expect by 2050 you won’t see ICE outside of hobbyists.

It will take at least 20 years for the parc to be fully replaced.

I in all probability will replace my vehicle with a diesel in 2025 when the contract is up. As things stand it’s £17,000 cheaper than a hybrid version of the same car and by then they will be looking to dispose if those models

Either way I can’t see how there won’t be at least 20,000 fuel cars on the road by 2040

 

[shmmeee]

It will take at least 20 years for the parc to be fully replaced.

I in all probability will replace my vehicle with a diesel in 2025 when the contract is up. As things stand it’s £17,000 cheaper than a hybrid version of the same car and by then they will be looking to dispose if those models

Either way I can’t see how there won’t be at least 20,000 fuel cars on the road by 2040

I think if somethings driven by 0.05% of people that’s a pretty hobbyist pursuit. And not something there’ll be nationwide infrastructure to support. You’re talking around the level, or just below, of stamp collectors.

Tech change like this happens slow then very very quickly once it becomes the norm.

 

[Grendel]

I think if somethings driven by 0.05% of people that’s a pretty hobbyist pursuit. And not something there’ll be nationwide infrastructure to support. You’re talking around the level, or just below, of stamp collectors.

I think your misunderstanding my point

There is a view that electrification will mean a rapid transition it won’t. Even the most wildly optimistic scenario would be by 2040 over half of vehicles on the road in the UK will be electric unless people just give up driving altogether.

When you factor in battery life as well it makes it less likely still

I don’t know if the eu ever went ahead with the PHEV threat. I don’t think they did so those cars can still be produced until 2030 if that’s correct

Some people think the transition will be rapid. It won’t be

 

[NorthernWisdom]

I think your misunderstanding my point

There is a view that electrification will mean a rapid transition it won’t. Even the most wildly optimistic scenario would be by 2040 over half of vehicles on the road in the UK will be electric unless people just give up driving altogether.

When you factor in battery life as well it makes it less likely still

I don’t know if the eu ever went ahead with the PHEV threat. I don’t think they did so those cars can still be produced until 2030 if that’s correct

Some people think the transition will be rapid. It won’t be

Unless there's some serious help for poorer areas of society, it can't be anyway.

What will force change mind you is congestion zones like Oxford's, that seems to charge everything apart from an exclusively electric car.

(I'd still rather they developed hydrogen etc mind you!)

 

[Nick]

Unless there's some serious help for poorer areas of society, it can't be anyway.

What will force change mind you is congestion zones like Oxford's, that seems to charge everything apart from an exclusively electric car.

(I'd still rather they developed hydrogen etc mind you!)

Or it will just force people to be poorer while money is made by the councils on the additional charges every day to go to work.

If they charged £8 a day to drive in Coventry I wouldn't be able to magic an electric car up.

 

[NorthernWisdom]

Or it will just force people to be poorer while money is made by the councils on the additional charges every day to go to work.

If they charged £8 a day to drive in Coventry I wouldn't be able to magic an electric car up.

You'd have to get that bus, and return to further up this thread on a loop.

Actually, tbf Oxford is not a bad example of how to do things going forward, as there's a lorra lorra park and ride around the city, and the train goes right into the centre.

 

[Nick]

You'd have to get that bus, and return to further up this thread on a loop.

Or just fake plates.

Interestingly, there is a scheme to try and get people to scrap cars in Brum that are non-compliant and you get a £2k voucher for Motorpoint where you can buy an overpriced car with an awful finance deal.

 

[NorthernWisdom]

Or just fake plates.

I think they might just notice that my ageing diesel isn't electric, when it's parked in the car park!

 

[OffenhamSkyBlue]

You'd have to get that bus, and return to further up this thread on a loop.

Actually, tbf Oxford is not a bad example of how to do things going forward, as there's a lorra lorra park and ride around the city, and the train goes right into the centre.

It's a bit bonkers - my PHEV is perfectly capable of driving into Oxford on electric only, but doesn't qualify for a discount, so is classified as an "ultra-low emission vehicle". A Citroen PHEV i was interested in emits a light signal to ULEZ cameras to indicate when it is running in EV mode. Nothing to stop you switching back to petrol when you are past the cameras, which is i guess what they are afraid of. Oh, and to make more money!

 

[shmmeee]

Unless there's some serious help for poorer areas of society, it can't be anyway.

What will force change mind you is congestion zones like Oxford's, that seems to charge everything apart from an exclusively electric car.

(I'd still rather they developed hydrogen etc mind you!)

Hydrogen is an awful idea for a mobile fuel IMO.

I don’t see why the poorer would need help to buy something cheaper TBH.

Everyone seems stuck five years ago when there was a massive price premium. That’ll completely disappear and reverse over the next 5 years. Battery lifecycle is already improving with 1M mile prototypes already in existence, prices have dropped for batteries by 90% in a decade and will continue to.

I’ll say it again: if you’re buying an ICE car even second hand in 2040 you need your head looking at. I know people buying up petrol forecourts in anticipation of the market collapsing and prime real estate coming in.

This is all very 1960s “the world only needs five computers” level of thinking.

 

[NorthernWisdom]

I don’t see why the poorer would need help to buy something cheaper TBH.

So where's the money going to come from to buy an electric car then, if none are available for £500?

 

[OffenhamSkyBlue]

I'm incredibly fortunate to be in a position to even consider anything electric when my old diesel had to move on, but if i hadn't had a windfall there is no way i would have been able to afford anything other than a second hand ICE. I'm with NW on this - climate crisis measures should not be the preserve of the middle classes.