Do you want to discuss boring politics? (23 Viewers)

[Mucca Mad Boys]

People care less about the face at the top and more about the money in their pocket and their day to day lives which for most means interacting with some kind of public service and paying for the cost of living.

We can of course disagree on what people prioritise more.

The problem for your worldview is that voters have come to link declining public service provisions and living standards with the advent of mass immigration.

In cities like London, Birmingham and Manchester, social housing, for example, 45-60% (depending on which city + area) is taken up by social housing. Of that cohort, around 40-55% are in employment.

Hence, the working class has totally abandoned Labour. There’s been polling conducted post-2024 that paints the picture that Labour is the party of the metropolitan middle class.

 

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[Brighton Sky Blue]

The problem for your worldview is that voters have come to link declining public service provisions and living standards with the advent of mass immigration.

In cities like London, Birmingham and Manchester, social housing, for example, 45-60% (depending on which city + area) is taken up by social housing. Of that cohort, around 40-55% are in employment.

Hence, the working class has totally abandoned Labour. There’s been polling conducted post-2024 that paints the picture that Labour is the party of the metropolitan middle class.

I agree, and I think people are wrong if they've come to that conclusion.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Why was Thatcher elected in 3 consecutive elections then?

The Falklands
Rising living standards for middle England
Temporarily improved economic situation from the Reaganomics boom

Or was Bill Clinton's campaign manager wrong when he said 'it's the economy, stupid'?

 

[SBT]

The problem for your worldview is that voters have come to link declining public service provisions and living standards with the advent of mass immigration.

In cities like London, Birmingham and Manchester, social housing, for example, 45-60% (depending on which city + area) is taken up by social housing. Of that cohort, around 40-55% are in employment.

Hell yeah I wondered how long it would take before you were back to blame the immigrants

Is the social housing disproportionately taken up by immigrants? If not, why bring them up?

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

I agree, and I think people are wrong if they've come to that conclusion.

They’re not because GDP per capita has steadily declined in line with mass migration. Again, the evidence of its impact on social housing, house and rental price increases…

The British state under Labour and Conservative governments have proven that it cannot build enough houses to keep up with net migration.

With respect, working class people do not need middle class politicians and activists telling them what they can see in their communities is ‘wrong’.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

They’re not because GDP per capita has steadily declined in line with mass migration. Again, the evidence of its impact on social housing, house and rental price increases…

The British state under Labour and Conservative governments have proven that it cannot build enough houses to keep up with net migration.

With respect, working class people do not need middle class politicians and activists telling them what they can see in their communities is ‘wrong’.

Correlation is not causation and there are other things that have happened in line with declining public services and rising living costs. I'm not a middle class politician or activist either, I'm a person with a different opinion to yours, and I can say 'I think you're wrong' without saying 'I know you're wrong'.

We simply have differing opinions on the cause of and solution to the country's problems, but please don't label me as something I'm not.

 

[CCFCSteve]

Ignoring the little dig at 'the left' wanting more extreme lockdowns, my point is the likes of Johnson should be in prison, not just voted out of office. Just a disgusting excuse for a man who wanted the bodies to 'pile high'.

That genuinely wasn’t a dig. It was an observation from my memory of the time. Anyway, lets see what the inquiry throws up….I imagine we’ll both end up disappointed!

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

That genuinely wasn’t a dig. It was an observation from my memory of the time. Anyway, lets see what the inquiry throws up….I imagine we’ll both end up disappointed!

An inquiry that will take forever, have no recommendations, no actions, and anyone who clearly did something wrong will get away with it. Will probably come to thousands upon thousands of pages to make whoever's name goes on the front feel good though.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Hell yeah I wondered how long it would take before you were back to blame the immigrants

Is the social housing disproportionately taken up by immigrants? If not, why bring them up?

I don’t blame immigrants at all. It’s the British governments fault for not controlling borders. There's a reason Macron called Britain 'El Dorado' for illegal migrants.

In major UK cities, such as London, social housing is disproportionately made up foreign-born people.

https://www.reuters.com/fact-check/fact-check-foreign-born-people-not-necessarily-foreigners-occupy-48-londons-2025-03-24/

Milton Friedman, a neoliberal economist, argued you can either have mass immigration or a welfare state, but not both. This was something I once scoffed at, frankly. In real time, we’re actually seeing in Europe that it’s caught between these competing policy areas.

Denmark, who many of our left wing posters admire with their high tax economies with good public services understand this tension. Hence, they’re one of the most anti-immigration countries in Europe. Sweden is also starting to follow suit.

Correlation is not causation and there are other things that have happened in line with declining public services and rising living costs. I'm not a middle class politician or activist either, I'm a person with a different opinion to yours, and I can say 'I think you're wrong' without saying 'I know you're wrong'.

We simply have differing opinions on the cause of and solution to the country's problems, but please don't label me as something I'm not.

Apologies, I wasn’t specifically calling you such. It was a broader comment.

Ask yourself why businesses want mass immigration? It’s all about supply and demand. If you restrict the supply of labour, wages invariably have to increase as businesses compete for workers. Likewise, there's reports that Boris allowed the 'Boriswave' to happen because the government was concerned with inflation from wages rises - this is something Aaron Bastani shared on, who many will recognise as the co-founder of Novara (a v left wing media outlet).

Likewise, on public service provision, if you increase your population by 300-900k per year, that's a pressure on the state because you need to build infrastructure to keep up; houses, roads, schools, hospitals and so on.

This is why the OBR is beginning to change its tone on immigration because anyone earning less than 35k per year will be a net drain of the treasury which undermines the the economic assumption that has underpinned UK (and European) economic thinking for 30 years.

You just won't find a country that has high wages, high (low-wage) immigration and a generous welfare state.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Apologies, I wasn’t specifically calling you such. It was a broader comment.

Ask yourself why businesses want mass immigration? It’s all about supply and demand. If you restrict the supply of labour, wages invariably have to increase as businesses compete for workers. Likewise, there's reports that Boris allowed the 'Boriswave' to happen because the government was concerned with inflation from wages rises - this is something Aaron Bastani shared on, who many will recognise as the co-founder of Novara (a v left wing media outlet).

Likewise, on public service provision, if you increase your population by 300-900k per year, that's a pressure on the state because you need to build infrastructure to keep up; houses, roads, schools, hospitals and so on.

This is why the OBR is beginning to change its tone on immigration because anyone earning less than 35k per year will be a net drain of the treasury which undermines the the economic assumption that has underpinned UK (and European) economic thinking for 30 years.

You just won't find a country that has high wages, high (low-wage) immigration and a generous welfare state.

I think there's quite a revealing misunderstanding here that people like me want open borders, super high net immigration and so on. I don't, and that comes from not wanting the country to be reliant on foreign labour full stop. I want better pay and conditions for our workforce and an education and skills focus that allows us to attract and produce enough of our own workers for the sectors that need them. Britain has an outstanding scientific heritage for example, and still produces world class research, but we fund it at a pittance and wonder why we struggle to keep the talent here.

My view all along has been that the issues surrounding immigration are a symptom, not cause of, the country's problems.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

I think there's quite a revealing misunderstanding here that people like me want open borders, super high net immigration and so on. I don't, and that comes from not wanting the country to be reliant on foreign labour full stop. I want better pay and conditions for our workforce and an education and skills focus that allows us to attract and produce enough of our own workers for the sectors that need them.

My view all along has been that the issues surrounding immigration are a symptom, not cause of, the country's problems.

I don’t think you’re an open border zealot. What I would say is that you’re quite clearly uncomfortable drawing a line on what you’d control.

In the interests of open conversation, what would you manage?

For example, I think it’s reasonable to expect:
- high earner of above £35-40k+ per annum and in continuous employment
- self-sufficiency: therefore, access to the social housing and benefits need to be restricted imo and an expectation people have ‘substantial’ savings at all times
- English proficiency - self-explantory
- Being able to deport foreign born criminals
- A public benefit test to be passed before indefinite leave to remain is granted
- one thing I’d consider; healthcare provisions. No free access to the NHS before indefinite leave to remain is granted - personally not 100% sold on this but something I’ve thought about

If those conditions are met, welcome to Britain! Irrespective of race, nationality, religion, sex or sexual orientation.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I don’t think you’re an open border zealot. What I would say is that you’re quite clearly uncomfortable drawing a line on what you’d control.

In the interests of open conversation, what would you manage?

For example, I think it’s reasonable to expect:
- high earner of above £35-40k+ per annum and in continuous employment
- self-sufficiency: therefore, access to the social housing and benefits need to be restricted imo and an expectation people have ‘substantial’ savings at all times
- English proficiency - self-explantory
- Being able to deport foreign born criminals
- A public benefit test to be passed before indefinite leave to remain is granted
- one thing I’d consider; healthcare provisions. No free access to the NHS before indefinite leave to remain is granted - personally not 100% sold on this but something I’ve thought about

If those conditions are met, welcome to Britain! Irrespective of race, nationality, religion, sex or sexual orientation.

Not uncomfortable, but I genuinely don't know what number for net immigration I'm happy with without having had time to really get into the weeds on it and I won't just throw a number out at random.

I don't have much objection to most of those suggestions however the earnings threshold runs into a clear problem that it will surely then leave lots of sectors badly understaffed. Are you suggesting British workers should replace those on low wages or the wages themselves need to go up? Then there is the separate matter of students, who are big net contributors financially and are propping up a lot of our universities.

 

[wingy]

This is a guy we could do with,plain speaking
Have a listen!

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Bloody useless

Manhunt for asylum seeker jailed for sexual assault mistakenly released

Ethiopian national Hadush Kebatu sparked nationwide protests after sexually assaulting a 14-year-old girl.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[SkyBlueDom26]

Bloody useless

Manhunt for asylum seeker jailed for sexual assault mistakenly released

Ethiopian national Hadush Kebatu sparked nationwide protests after sexually assaulting a 14-year-old girl.

www.bbc.co.uk

How the fuck can that happen

 

[SBT]

If the government was deliberately and actively trying to piss people off and make itself look stupid, how would it do things differently?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

How the fuck can that happen

How on Earth can someone be freed ‘by accident’? Are they trying to say he escaped?

 

[Grendel]

The Falklands
Rising living standards for middle England
Temporarily improved economic situation from the Reaganomics boom

Or was Bill Clinton's campaign manager wrong when he said 'it's the economy, stupid'?

The economy was in pretty good shape when Major was booted out and far worse when he managed to get elected.

What happened?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

The economy was in pretty good shape when Major was booted out and far worse when he managed to get elected.

What happened?

Dunno. My parents promised to emigrate if Blair was elected. They’re still here

 

[wingy]

Japan have gone female

In the PM stakes, I believe she's also into Heavy metal!

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

So it’s 4 out of 30 victims

 

[SkyBlueDom26]

Japan have gone female

In the PM stakes, I believe she's also into Heavy metal!

She looks like a brilliant candidate

 

[Captain Dart]

How the fuck can that happen

 

[wingy]

View attachment 46779

I bet it's something in admin, relying on tech?

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Streeting is absolutely right
I never thought I’d see the day when it was ok to say these things again.
shame on us

Reform MP Sarah Pochin's comments about adverts were 'racist', Wes Streeting says

Sarah Pochin apologises for saying "it drives me mad when I see adverts full of black people, full of Asian people".

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Not uncomfortable, but I genuinely don't know what number for net immigration I'm happy with without having had time to really get into the weeds on it and I won't just throw a number out at random.

I don't have much objection to most of those suggestions however the earnings threshold runs into a clear problem that it will surely then leave lots of sectors badly understaffed. Are you suggesting British workers should replace those on low wages or the wages themselves need to go up? Then there is the separate matter of students, who are big net contributors financially and are propping up a lot of our universities.

Based on polling, the public generally want 0-100k net migration.

Ultimately, the public just want reassurance that migration is controlled and people who do come integrate and provide an economic benefit. Post-Brexit, EEA migration has been cut but unfortunately its been supplanted by non-EEA migration. Generally, EEA migrants tend to be economically net-contributors and the opposite is true for most non-EEA nations. In this respect, the public won't necessary care about numbers if there's confidence robust controls on migration are in place.

We should aspire to be a high wage economy like Australia and in order to achieve that aim, you need to regulate the labour market and this is a position traditionally supported by trade unionists so should be a bread and butter Labour position. Take social care as an example, we're reliant on cheap-imported labour but its not without cost because there's been several high profile cases where patients have died because care workers are not proficient enough in English to communicate with emergency services. There's also v little prospect of working conditions and wages to increase when you have an infinite supply of cheap labour.

There are sectors in the economy where the government has created the demand for immigration, particularly the NHS. If you systematically cut training places for doctors and nurses (etc), then of course you need to import labour to fill those gaps. This is being used as a justification for more immigration.

Side note: its cases like the Epping migrant committing a sex offence within days of arriving via small boats, given a lenient sentence and subsequently released makes a complete mockery of our system and creates a toxic atmosphere around the issue. What better ammunition for those decrying "two-tier justice?"

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Based on polling, the public generally want 0-100k net migration.

Ultimately, the public just want reassurance that migration is controlled and people who do come integrate and provide an economic benefit. Post-Brexit, EEA migration has been cut but unfortunately its been supplanted by non-EEA migration. Generally, EEA migrants tend to be economically net-contributors and the opposite is true for most non-EEA nations. In this respect, the public won't necessary care about numbers if there's confidence robust controls on migration are in place.

We should aspire to be a high wage economy like Australia and in order to achieve that aim, you need to regulate the labour market and this is a position traditionally supported by trade unionists so should be a bread and butter Labour position. Take social care as an example, we're reliant on cheap-imported labour but its not without cost because there's been several high profile cases where patients have died because care workers are not proficient enough in English to communicate with emergency services. There's also v little prospect of working conditions and wages to increase when you have an infinite supply of cheap labour.

There are sectors in the economy where the government has created the demand for immigration, particularly the NHS. If you systematically cut training places for doctors and nurses (etc), then of course you need to import labour to fill those gaps. This is being used as a justification for more immigration.

Side note: its cases like the Epping migrant committing a sex offence within days of arriving via small boats, given a lenient sentence and subsequently released makes a complete mockery of our system and creates a toxic atmosphere around the issue. What better ammunition for those decrying "two-tier justice?"

I think I read from this that we're broadly in agreement on what we want a successful outcome to look like. What you haven't really addressed and I'll ask again on, is students. Most will come here paying considerable amounts to live and study here and incur very little cost from the state while they are here. They have a pretty obvious incentive not to go around breaking the law either.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

I think I read from this that we're broadly in agreement on what we want a successful outcome to look like. What you haven't really addressed and I'll ask again on, is students. Most will come here paying considerable amounts to live and study here and incur very little cost from the state while they are here. They have a pretty obvious incentive not to go around breaking the law either.

For sure, my views on immigration are reasonable and possibly influenced more by left leaning people than right.

On students, the student visa route is being used as a trojan horse for permanent settlement and there's many students transitioning from this visa to the social care route and around 1/16th asylum claims are student visa. These loopholes need to be clamped down to ensure any students who are settling permanently are above average earners i.e. net tax contributors.

In short, low ranking universities shouldn't be allowed to be propped up by international students. This is another area where the government is allowing migration to 'prop up' an industry where immigration begets more immigration. It comes back to the central point that we want successful people and elite talent to settle in the UK. It's probably not the case that the University of Bedfordshire is probably not producing many high tax individuals.

There was a case in the news recently when an English Lit graduate at a mickey mouse uni needed an interpreter after murdering his wife.

Migrant murderer with poor English ‘should never have had student visa’

A migrant who murdered his wife as she pushed her pram down the street should never have been given a student visa to enter Britain, the Tories have suggested.

www.yahoo.com

 

[duffer]

Based on polling, the public generally want 0-100k net migration.

Ultimately, the public just want reassurance that migration is controlled and people who do come integrate and provide an economic benefit. Post-Brexit, EEA migration has been cut but unfortunately its been supplanted by non-EEA migration. Generally, EEA migrants tend to be economically net-contributors and the opposite is true for most non-EEA nations. In this respect, the public won't necessary care about numbers if there's confidence robust controls on migration are in place.

We should aspire to be a high wage economy like Australia and in order to achieve that aim, you need to regulate the labour market and this is a position traditionally supported by trade unionists so should be a bread and butter Labour position. Take social care as an example, we're reliant on cheap-imported labour but its not without cost because there's been several high profile cases where patients have died because care workers are not proficient enough in English to communicate with emergency services. There's also v little prospect of working conditions and wages to increase when you have an infinite supply of cheap labour.

There are sectors in the economy where the government has created the demand for immigration, particularly the NHS. If you systematically cut training places for doctors and nurses (etc), then of course you need to import labour to fill those gaps. This is being used as a justification for more immigration.

Side note: its cases like the Epping migrant committing a sex offence within days of arriving via small boats, given a lenient sentence and subsequently released makes a complete mockery of our system and creates a toxic atmosphere around the issue. What better ammunition for those decrying "two-tier justice?"

Just a correction of an obvious error. There was no two-tier justice here, the man in question received the maximum sentence that can be given at a magistrates court.

The release was also an obvious error. One of 262 in a year.

So the idea that this bloke has been treated leniently is a complete fiction. In fact he got the maximum sentence that he could receive at the magistrates, and then was subject to a huge manhunt that none of the the other 261 mistaken releases had.

I'm all in favour of not giving ammunition to the two-tier justice myth, because it doesn't stand up to analysis.

Also, given that 40% of those arrested in the immigration riots had previous convictions for things like domestic violence, I feel a bit sick when their cheerleaders talk about law and order or protecting women. It's a tad hypocritical.

https://www.essex.police.uk/news/essex/news/news/2025/september/epping-man-jailed-over-sexual-assaults/

Shocking amount of prisoners released in error as numbers more than double in a year

Thousands of inmates have also been freed early since then in a bid to cut jail overcrowding

www.independent.co.uk

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Just a correction of an obvious error. There was no two-tier justice here, the man in question received the maximum sentence that can be given at a magistrates court.

The release was also an obvious error. One of 262 in a year.

So the idea that this bloke has been treated leniently is a complete fiction. In fact he got the maximum sentence that he could receive at the magistrates, and then was subject to a huge manhunt that none of the the other 261 mistaken releases had.

I'm all in favour of not giving ammunition to the two-tier justice myth, because it doesn't stand up to analysis.

Also, given that 40% of those arrested in the immigration riots had previous convictions for things like domestic violence, I feel a bit sick when their cheerleaders talk about law and order or protecting women. It's a tad hypocritical.

https://www.essex.police.uk/news/essex/news/news/2025/september/epping-man-jailed-over-sexual-assaults/

Shocking amount of prisoners released in error as numbers more than double in a year

Thousands of inmates have also been freed early since then in a bid to cut jail overcrowding

www.independent.co.uk

Good luck correcting an ‘error’ that wasn’t stated as fact. I said it gives ammunition to those who decry “two tier justice” and in politics and public opinion, perceptions matter much more than reality.

Most people aren’t familiar with guidelines and I’m sure if you went around and asked ordinary people what worse; A) Sexual assault or racist tweets and B) which crime should carry a harsher sentence? You’ll see what ordinary people think.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Good luck correcting an ‘error’ that wasn’t stated as fact. I said it gives ammunition to those who decry “two tier justice” and in politics and public opinion, perceptions matter much more than reality.

Most people aren’t familiar with guidelines and I’m sure if you went around and asked ordinary people what worse; A) Sexual assault or racist tweets and B) which crime should carry a harsher sentence? You’ll see what ordinary people think.

They need to understand better or listen more then
Otherwise they’re bashing their heads against the wall time and time again

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

They need to understand better or listen more then
Otherwise they’re bashing their heads against the wall time and time again

On immigration, perhaps the political class should do what the electorate has instructed them to do. Every government from 2005 has been elected to control migration and the opposite has happened. If a party was elected maintain/increase immigration, that’d be fair enough because there was a mandate for it.

Frankly, if sexual assault carries a lesser sentence than racist tweets, that needs to be changed. As a basic principle, crimes with physical harm are worse than crimes that offend.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

On immigration, perhaps the political class should do what the electorate has instructed them to do. Every government from 2005 has been elected to control migration and the opposite has happened. If a party was elected maintain/increase immigration, that’d be fair enough because there was a mandate for it.

Frankly, if sexual assault carries a lesser sentence than racist tweets, that needs to be changed. As a basic principle, crimes with physical harm are worse than crimes that offend.

Pretty sure inciting racial hatred causes harm but the legal system isn’t just about pissing people off it’s something Britain is hugely respected for

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Pretty sure inciting racial hatred causes harm but the legal system isn’t just about pissing people off it’s something Britain is hugely respected for

How do you quantify that specifically? Is there any direct evidence that the tweet lead to violence?

Now weigh that up against the 2 women sexually assault where the crime, perpetrator and victims are quantifiable.

Under normal circumstances, Lucy Connolly wouldn’t have got 31 months and probably successfully defends if she went to trial. In any case, it’s mockery that sex offenders get much more lenient sentences. Most ordinary people see that is just nonsense. The proof is in the pudding that she is now a ‘martyr’ of sorts because people have looked past what she said and looked to the ridiculousness of the sentencing. Again, in normal circumstances, a person saying what she said wouldn’t have been given the light of day following what she said. It’s a massive own goal for the establishment and anyone with political antennae can see that.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

How do you quantify that specifically? Is there any direct evidence that the tweet lead to violence?

Now weigh that up against the 2 women sexually assault where the crime, perpetrator and victims are quantifiable.

Under normal circumstances, Lucy Connolly wouldn’t have got 31 months and probably successfully defends if she went to trial. In any case, it’s mockery that sex offenders get much more lenient sentences. Most ordinary people see that is just nonsense. The proof is in the pudding that she is now a ‘martyr’ of sorts because people have looked past what she said and looked to the ridiculousness of the sentencing. Again, in normal circumstances, a person saying what she said wouldn’t have been given the light of day following what she said. It’s a massive own goal for the establishment and anyone with political antennae can see that.

It wasn’t normal times
Rioting was happening including people attempting to set fire to hotels containing human beings