Do you want to discuss boring politics? (24 Viewers)

[Mucca Mad Boys]

People care less about the face at the top and more about the money in their pocket and their day to day lives which for most means interacting with some kind of public service and paying for the cost of living.

We can of course disagree on what people prioritise more.

The problem for your worldview is that voters have come to link declining public service provisions and living standards with the advent of mass immigration.

In cities like London, Birmingham and Manchester, social housing, for example, 45-60% (depending on which city + area) is taken up by social housing. Of that cohort, around 40-55% are in employment.

Hence, the working class has totally abandoned Labour. There’s been polling conducted post-2024 that paints the picture that Labour is the party of the metropolitan middle class.

 

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[Brighton Sky Blue]

The problem for your worldview is that voters have come to link declining public service provisions and living standards with the advent of mass immigration.

In cities like London, Birmingham and Manchester, social housing, for example, 45-60% (depending on which city + area) is taken up by social housing. Of that cohort, around 40-55% are in employment.

Hence, the working class has totally abandoned Labour. There’s been polling conducted post-2024 that paints the picture that Labour is the party of the metropolitan middle class.

I agree, and I think people are wrong if they've come to that conclusion.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Why was Thatcher elected in 3 consecutive elections then?

The Falklands
Rising living standards for middle England
Temporarily improved economic situation from the Reaganomics boom

Or was Bill Clinton's campaign manager wrong when he said 'it's the economy, stupid'?

 

[SBT]

The problem for your worldview is that voters have come to link declining public service provisions and living standards with the advent of mass immigration.

In cities like London, Birmingham and Manchester, social housing, for example, 45-60% (depending on which city + area) is taken up by social housing. Of that cohort, around 40-55% are in employment.

Hell yeah I wondered how long it would take before you were back to blame the immigrants

Is the social housing disproportionately taken up by immigrants? If not, why bring them up?

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

I agree, and I think people are wrong if they've come to that conclusion.

They’re not because GDP per capita has steadily declined in line with mass migration. Again, the evidence of its impact on social housing, house and rental price increases…

The British state under Labour and Conservative governments have proven that it cannot build enough houses to keep up with net migration.

With respect, working class people do not need middle class politicians and activists telling them what they can see in their communities is ‘wrong’.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

They’re not because GDP per capita has steadily declined in line with mass migration. Again, the evidence of its impact on social housing, house and rental price increases…

The British state under Labour and Conservative governments have proven that it cannot build enough houses to keep up with net migration.

With respect, working class people do not need middle class politicians and activists telling them what they can see in their communities is ‘wrong’.

Correlation is not causation and there are other things that have happened in line with declining public services and rising living costs. I'm not a middle class politician or activist either, I'm a person with a different opinion to yours, and I can say 'I think you're wrong' without saying 'I know you're wrong'.

We simply have differing opinions on the cause of and solution to the country's problems, but please don't label me as something I'm not.

 

[CCFCSteve]

Ignoring the little dig at 'the left' wanting more extreme lockdowns, my point is the likes of Johnson should be in prison, not just voted out of office. Just a disgusting excuse for a man who wanted the bodies to 'pile high'.

That genuinely wasn’t a dig. It was an observation from my memory of the time. Anyway, lets see what the inquiry throws up….I imagine we’ll both end up disappointed!

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

That genuinely wasn’t a dig. It was an observation from my memory of the time. Anyway, lets see what the inquiry throws up….I imagine we’ll both end up disappointed!

An inquiry that will take forever, have no recommendations, no actions, and anyone who clearly did something wrong will get away with it. Will probably come to thousands upon thousands of pages to make whoever's name goes on the front feel good though.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Hell yeah I wondered how long it would take before you were back to blame the immigrants

Is the social housing disproportionately taken up by immigrants? If not, why bring them up?

I don’t blame immigrants at all. It’s the British governments fault for not controlling borders. There's a reason Macron called Britain 'El Dorado' for illegal migrants.

In major UK cities, such as London, social housing is disproportionately made up foreign-born people.

https://www.reuters.com/fact-check/fact-check-foreign-born-people-not-necessarily-foreigners-occupy-48-londons-2025-03-24/

Milton Friedman, a neoliberal economist, argued you can either have mass immigration or a welfare state, but not both. This was something I once scoffed at, frankly. In real time, we’re actually seeing in Europe that it’s caught between these competing policy areas.

Denmark, who many of our left wing posters admire with their high tax economies with good public services understand this tension. Hence, they’re one of the most anti-immigration countries in Europe. Sweden is also starting to follow suit.

Correlation is not causation and there are other things that have happened in line with declining public services and rising living costs. I'm not a middle class politician or activist either, I'm a person with a different opinion to yours, and I can say 'I think you're wrong' without saying 'I know you're wrong'.

We simply have differing opinions on the cause of and solution to the country's problems, but please don't label me as something I'm not.

Apologies, I wasn’t specifically calling you such. It was a broader comment.

Ask yourself why businesses want mass immigration? It’s all about supply and demand. If you restrict the supply of labour, wages invariably have to increase as businesses compete for workers. Likewise, there's reports that Boris allowed the 'Boriswave' to happen because the government was concerned with inflation from wages rises - this is something Aaron Bastani shared on, who many will recognise as the co-founder of Novara (a v left wing media outlet).

Likewise, on public service provision, if you increase your population by 300-900k per year, that's a pressure on the state because you need to build infrastructure to keep up; houses, roads, schools, hospitals and so on.

This is why the OBR is beginning to change its tone on immigration because anyone earning less than 35k per year will be a net drain of the treasury which undermines the the economic assumption that has underpinned UK (and European) economic thinking for 30 years.

You just won't find a country that has high wages, high (low-wage) immigration and a generous welfare state.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Apologies, I wasn’t specifically calling you such. It was a broader comment.

Ask yourself why businesses want mass immigration? It’s all about supply and demand. If you restrict the supply of labour, wages invariably have to increase as businesses compete for workers. Likewise, there's reports that Boris allowed the 'Boriswave' to happen because the government was concerned with inflation from wages rises - this is something Aaron Bastani shared on, who many will recognise as the co-founder of Novara (a v left wing media outlet).

Likewise, on public service provision, if you increase your population by 300-900k per year, that's a pressure on the state because you need to build infrastructure to keep up; houses, roads, schools, hospitals and so on.

This is why the OBR is beginning to change its tone on immigration because anyone earning less than 35k per year will be a net drain of the treasury which undermines the the economic assumption that has underpinned UK (and European) economic thinking for 30 years.

You just won't find a country that has high wages, high (low-wage) immigration and a generous welfare state.

I think there's quite a revealing misunderstanding here that people like me want open borders, super high net immigration and so on. I don't, and that comes from not wanting the country to be reliant on foreign labour full stop. I want better pay and conditions for our workforce and an education and skills focus that allows us to attract and produce enough of our own workers for the sectors that need them. Britain has an outstanding scientific heritage for example, and still produces world class research, but we fund it at a pittance and wonder why we struggle to keep the talent here.

My view all along has been that the issues surrounding immigration are a symptom, not cause of, the country's problems.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

I think there's quite a revealing misunderstanding here that people like me want open borders, super high net immigration and so on. I don't, and that comes from not wanting the country to be reliant on foreign labour full stop. I want better pay and conditions for our workforce and an education and skills focus that allows us to attract and produce enough of our own workers for the sectors that need them.

My view all along has been that the issues surrounding immigration are a symptom, not cause of, the country's problems.

I don’t think you’re an open border zealot. What I would say is that you’re quite clearly uncomfortable drawing a line on what you’d control.

In the interests of open conversation, what would you manage?

For example, I think it’s reasonable to expect:
- high earner of above £35-40k+ per annum and in continuous employment
- self-sufficiency: therefore, access to the social housing and benefits need to be restricted imo and an expectation people have ‘substantial’ savings at all times
- English proficiency - self-explantory
- Being able to deport foreign born criminals
- A public benefit test to be passed before indefinite leave to remain is granted
- one thing I’d consider; healthcare provisions. No free access to the NHS before indefinite leave to remain is granted - personally not 100% sold on this but something I’ve thought about

If those conditions are met, welcome to Britain! Irrespective of race, nationality, religion, sex or sexual orientation.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I don’t think you’re an open border zealot. What I would say is that you’re quite clearly uncomfortable drawing a line on what you’d control.

In the interests of open conversation, what would you manage?

For example, I think it’s reasonable to expect:
- high earner of above £35-40k+ per annum and in continuous employment
- self-sufficiency: therefore, access to the social housing and benefits need to be restricted imo and an expectation people have ‘substantial’ savings at all times
- English proficiency - self-explantory
- Being able to deport foreign born criminals
- A public benefit test to be passed before indefinite leave to remain is granted
- one thing I’d consider; healthcare provisions. No free access to the NHS before indefinite leave to remain is granted - personally not 100% sold on this but something I’ve thought about

If those conditions are met, welcome to Britain! Irrespective of race, nationality, religion, sex or sexual orientation.

Not uncomfortable, but I genuinely don't know what number for net immigration I'm happy with without having had time to really get into the weeds on it and I won't just throw a number out at random.

I don't have much objection to most of those suggestions however the earnings threshold runs into a clear problem that it will surely then leave lots of sectors badly understaffed. Are you suggesting British workers should replace those on low wages or the wages themselves need to go up? Then there is the separate matter of students, who are big net contributors financially and are propping up a lot of our universities.