Do you want to discuss boring politics? (19 Viewers)

[rob9872]

4%of GDP and the ability to the organise a shopping list, apart from that it was still a lie rob?

I get it, but I'm questioning whether it was a lie or simply an option that some people fell for? The truth is it's not generated the £350m per week so if it did, could it be given to the NHS? It could of course, but until it delivers I guess we'll never know. As I said, he's also not in a position to decide, so I find it strange some would be taken in by it.

 

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[Mcbean]

350 million - long way off the gazillion Black Hole Reeves keeps bringing up

 

[chiefdave]

Why does the £350m keep getting raised 10 years later? As I recall it, the sentiment was this is what it COULD fund, not this is what it will fund. If we were £350m a week better off you could do A, B, C or D with it, but one of the options was NHS. He never had the power in gov't to distribute that wealth and I don't know what the true saving (or cost) has been openly shared. The pandemic of course didn't help, but has anyone published any numbers recently? It was largely rubbished from the outset, so if you think that's the reason that leave won, I'd be amazed.

When this your campaign bus and you have the same on posters, leaflets, give speeches in front of signs proclaiming the same its not hard to see why some people would get the impression there's £350m a week going to the NHS if we leave.

 

[rob9872]

When this your campaign bus and you have the same on posters, leaflets, give speeches in front of signs proclaiming the same its not hard to see why some people would get the impression there's £350m a week going to the NHS if we leave.

View attachment 46694

Even looking at that now, it doesn't say that £350m is going to the NHS. It's saying let's fund it instead of sending £350m to the EU each week. Anyone who was taken in by it and thinks that what it's saying on either side is a bit simple.

 

[Grendel]

When this your campaign bus and you have the same on posters, leaflets, give speeches in front of signs proclaiming the same its not hard to see why some people would get the impression there's £350m a week going to the NHS if we leave.

View attachment 46694

Not really - it was for most an ideology anyway over actual funding arguments. The Remain campaign could not even argue in a positive manner regarding it.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

It wasn't the reason Leave won, but certainly played a massive role.

“Would we have won without immigration? No. Would we have won without £350m/NHS? All our research and the close result strongly suggests No. Would we have won by spending our time talking about trade and the Single Market? No way.” – Dominic Cummings – Vote Leave Campaign Director

If we wanted to write down lies from the Brexit referendum then we could add another thousand pages to this thread. There were so many bullshit pieces being thrown around from both sides of the argument. We were supposed to have run out of toilet paper several years ago as well.

 

[PVA]

If we wanted to write down lies from the Brexit referendum then we could add another thousand pages to this thread. There were so many bullshit pieces being thrown around from both sides of the argument. We were supposed to have run out of toilet paper several years ago as well.

Well regardless of red buses and toilet paper clearly the biggest lie of all told by either side was that we'd be better off out.

 

[skybluetony176]

So. If you’re claiming that you never believed the lies from leave because you’re smarter than that and then voted for it anyway then why did you vote for it anyway? You’re either not as smart as you think you are or you’re a massive racist. Fact is if there was a genuine argument outside the lies they would have made it. They didn’t. Surely you’d be better off admitting that you were duped.

I can see why elites wanted it, they don’t like the scrutiny on everything from their tax affairs to pollution to workers rights and it’s obvious that the elites own Ferage and the lunatic fringe of the Tories but what was in it for everyone else if it wasn’t funding for NHS, reducing VAT on energy bills etc?

 

[rob9872]

So. If you’re claiming that you never believed the lies from leave because you’re smarter than that and then voted for it anyway then why did you vote for it anyway? You’re either not as smart as you think you are or you’re a massive racist. Fact is if there was a genuine argument outside the lies they would have made it. They didn’t. Surely you’d be better off admitting that you were duped.

I can see why elites wanted it, they don’t like the scrutiny on everything from their tax affairs to pollution to workers rights and it’s obvious that the elites own Ferage and the lunatic fringe of the Tories but what was in it for everyone else if it wasn’t funding for NHS, reducing VAT on energy bills etc?

There you go again with the racist label. One stop shop for every single disagreement. Proper cunts trick. It seems any reason anyone disagrees with the way of thinking from the 'nice side of politics' is racist. This has to stop, it's not helpful and you know what you're doing by trying to shut down debate.

I've been over this many times and my reasons for voting leave. I believed we would be better off out. I also felt that being controlled by Brussels was wrong and we were getting more and more EU legislation. On balance we've not got what we were promised for a variety of reasons, but the red bus never came into my thinking and I doubt it did for a lot of others.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

There you go again with the racist label. One stop shop for every single disagreement. Proper cunts trick. It seems any reason anyone disagrees with the way of thinking from the 'nice side of politics' is racist. This has to stop, it's not helpful and you know what you're doing by trying to shut down debate.

I've been over this many times and my reasons for voting leave. I believed we would be better off out. I also felt that being controlled by Brussels was wrong and we were getting more and more EU legislation. On balance we've not got what we were promised for a variety of reasons, but the red bus never came into my thinking and I doubt it did for a lot of others.

I mean, regardless of what you think about the result of it, it would never have happened if it wasn't for that kind of sneering. It was a 2% split in the vote, and there were at least 2% of people voting in protest towards those condescending attitudes we still see today.

I mean, who is less intelligent? The people that voted for it, or the people that have had multiple explanations and warnings, and still fail to learn from their mistakes and behave like this.

 

[skybluetony176]

There you go again with the racist label. One stop shop for every single disagreement. Proper cunts trick. It seems any reason anyone disagrees with the way of thinking from the 'nice side of politics' is racist. This has to stop, it's not helpful and you know what you're doing by trying to shut down debate.

I've been over this many times and my reasons for voting leave. I believed we would be better off out. I also felt that being controlled by Brussels was wrong and we were getting more and more EU legislation. On balance we've not got what we were promised for a variety of reasons, but the red bus never came into my thinking and I doubt it did for a lot of others.

I wasn’t labelling anyone in particular a racist but it is a fact that some people did vote leave for the simple reason that they’re racists. There’s no escaping that and it would be moronic to ignore it.

Why did you believe we would be better off? Based on what if not the lies?

Being controlled by Brussels is just bollocks. The little amount of change since leaving even under the government of Brexits biggest cheerleader Boris Johnson shows it to be bollocks. Unless you count things like the freedom to pollute rivers, the freedom to bring back roaming charges and other things that shoot us all in the foot. Brussels was just the centralisation of legislation, the only thing that’s changed is that centralisation has changed location and it’s no longer a shared cost so the cost of that legislation pp is much higher.

Where’s the tangible benefits? What tangible benefits were you expecting?

 

[skybluetony176]

I mean, regardless of what you think about the result of it, it would never have happened if it wasn't for that kind of sneering. It was a 2% split in the vote, and there were at least 2% of people voting in protest towards those condescending attitudes we still see today.

I mean, who is less intelligent? The people that voted for it, or the people that have had multiple explanations and warnings, and still fail to learn from their mistakes and behave like this.

That’s a complete oxymoron.

 

[Grendel]

I am a complete moron .

Reality for The Tonester at last

 

[rob9872]

I wasn’t labelling anyone in particular a racist but it is a fact that some people did vote leave for the simple reason that they’re racists. There’s no escaping that and it would be moronic to ignore it.

Why did you believe we would be better off? Based on what if not the lies?

Being controlled by Brussels is just bollocks. The little amount of change since leaving even under the government of Brexits biggest cheerleader Boris Johnson shows it to be bollocks. Unless you count things like the freedom to pollute rivers, the freedom to bring back roaming charges and other things that shoot us all in the foot. Brussels was just the centralisation of legislation, the only thing that’s changed is that centralisation has changed location and it’s no longer a shared cost so the cost of that legislation pp is much higher.

Where’s the tangible benefits? What tangible benefits were you expecting?

Nobody is denying racists would've voted for it, what you said was different and that everyone who didn't believe tge lies was a racist. That's not the same thing.

With regards to what I was expecting, I believed rightly or wrongly that being in charge of our own destiny was the right thing to do. We're an island nation with our own currency and I firmly thought it'll was the right thing to do. Others didn't, I get that and have no problem, but I didn't label them anything that was a nasty smearing campaign that actually as Earlsdon said, may even have swung the vote.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

That’s a complete oxymoron.

 

[skybluetony176]

Nobody is denying racists would've voted for it, what you said was different and that everyone who didn't believe tge lies was a racist. That's not the same thing.

With regards to what I was expecting, I believed rightly or wrongly that being in charge of our own destiny was the right thing to do. We're an island nation with our own currency and I firmly thought it'll was the right thing to do. Others didn't, I get that and have no problem, but I didn't label them anything that was a nasty smearing campaign that actually as Earlsdon said, may even have swung the vote.

I’m not sure what being an island nation with our own currency was something we needed to leave the EU for.

Baring a massive change in the tectonic plate Europe is sat on or a massive drop in sea levels we’ll always be an island nation, and if either of those things did happen we’d have bigger issues than Brussels. The pound was protected by EU law, we had a veto on ever joining the euro. Somewhat ironically a veto that is now lost so when we rejoin it will be with a formal commitment to join the euro at some point in the future. The best way to maintain our own currency was to remain in the status quo we had.

Any other reasons?

 

[rob9872]

I’m not sure what being an island nation with our own currency was something we needed to leave the EU for.

Baring a massive change in the tectonic plate Europe is sat on or a massive drop in sea levels we’ll always be an island nation, and if either of those things did happen we’d have bigger issues than Brussels. The pound was protected by EU law, we had a veto on ever joining the euro. Somewhat ironically a veto that is now lost so when we rejoin it will be with a formal commitment to join the euro at some point in the future. The best way to maintain our own currency was to remain in the status quo we had.

Any other reasons?

Tbh quite a few, but my reasons for voting Brexit 9 years ago are not what we're scrutinising point by point now so you can continue to try and pull them apart and deflect the rubbish you wrote labelling 52% of voters as a combination of racist and stupid. Your argument is at best lazy and flawed, possibly dangerous, but you still refuse to see it.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

Tbh quite a few, but my reasons for voting Brexit 9 years ago are not what we're scrutinising point by point now so you can continue to try and pull them apart and deflect the rubbish you wrote labelling 52% of voters as a combination of racist and stupid. Your argument is at best lazy and flawed, possibly dangerous, but you still refuse to see it.

It's a lost cause mate, but at least he hasn't declared some people should be killed for their views, so that's a step up on the forum today at least.

 

[skybluetony176]

Tbh quite a few, but my reasons for voting Brexit 9 years ago are not what we're scrutinising point by point now so you can continue to try and pull them apart and deflect the rubbish you wrote labelling 52% of voters as a combination of racist and stupid. Your argument is at best lazy and flawed, possibly dangerous, but you still refuse to see it.

I’m not talking about the entire 52%. I’m talking about a percentage of the 52% who claim that they never fell for the lies of the Brexit campaign and voted leave for another reason as they were too smart to fall for lies.

I think people who admit that they were duped (and there’s a lot of them) are smart, simply by the fact that they can see they were duped, that’s a smart response given the weight of evidence. Then there’s another percentage who live in hope that somehow we’ll hit a curve and the lies/promises of the leave campaign will come to fruition, we’ll be kind and call them optimists.

If you acknowledge that the leave campaign was a tissue of lies then why did you vote leave? It’s got to be more than you’ve offered, surely.

 

[rob9872]

I’m not talking about the entire 52%. I’m talking about a percentage of the 52% who claim that they never fell for the lies of the Brexit campaign and voted leave for another reason as they were too smart to fall for lies.

I think people who admit that they were duped (and there’s a lot of them) are smart, simply by the fact that they can see they were duped, that’s a smart response given the weight of evidence. Then there’s another percentage who live in hope that somehow we’ll hit a curve and the lies/promises of the leave campaign will come to fruition, we’ll be kind and call them optimists.

If you acknowledge that the leave campaign was a tissue of lies then why did you vote leave? It’s got to be more than you’ve offered, surely.

So you've now distanced yourself from what you said previously and again want to scrutinise reasons for voting for something back in 2016.

Fwiw I don't believe they were lies. I think at the time they were with the best interest at heart. Perhaps we thought we'd get some concessions and deals that never happened for a multitude of reasons, but the intentions arent any more disingenuous for not delivering on them.

Equally I think the pandemic held a lot of things back and we're still paying the price for that. I suspect we will pay for a generation, but no different to the rest of Europe on that, so remaining too wouldn't have delivered anything better.

I maintain it is in our best interests to have trade deals with Europe and not be in the EU. Lots of failing economies within the block too, they'll be bailed out and others will pay as we would have had to. We're also in a position to negotiate independently with those that do show growth like USA or China. The reasons are varied and certainly a lot deeper than immigration, but you can continue yo believe what you want, just don't expect to get a free pass when you do.

Right time for zzzz, big day tomorrow working am then down to Pompey away. No doubt I'll see you there PUSB

 

[SkyBlueCharlie9]

Really?

Access Restricted

Did you actually watch the video? Appreciate its a snapshot but these reform KCC Councillors are 100% inept and have track record and previous meetings have been similar. Have had the delight of working with one or two of these in last year! Its clear most of them haven't read the documents or have a clue about a vital plan and options for reorganisation and amalgamation of all 12 Kent councils down into just 3 or 4 . Out of their depth and really scary given its the biggest county in UK with crucial economy and European connections.
Council I work for and also one my wife works for in Kent have clear plans and options we've been discussing, but these lot are just bonkers and childlike. They are in charge of roads, education and social care !

 

[Sick Boy]

So. If you’re claiming that you never believed the lies from leave because you’re smarter than that and then voted for it anyway then why did you vote for it anyway? You’re either not as smart as you think you are or you’re a massive racist. Fact is if there was a genuine argument outside the lies they would have made it. They didn’t. Surely you’d be better off admitting that you were duped.

I can see why elites wanted it, they don’t like the scrutiny on everything from their tax affairs to pollution to workers rights and it’s obvious that the elites own Ferage and the lunatic fringe of the Tories but what was in it for everyone else if it wasn’t funding for NHS, reducing VAT on energy bills etc?

Didn’t you vote for the Tories after they made a pledge to hold a referendum?

 

[Captain Dart]

All the parties are untrustworthy so no MP should feel safe. I feel it is high time for a disruptive change regardless of the consequences.

 

[chiefdave]

All the parties are untrustworthy so no MP should feel safe. I feel it is high time for a disruptive change regardless of the consequences.

You'd need to dig down a lot more into the data I think and find out what jobs we're talking about.

Its definitely true that there are whole sectors where British workers are very reluctant to take jobs but that's a problem nobody wants to try and solve seeing as any suggestion of improving wages or working conditions is knocked straight down as going to destroy the economy.

 

[PVA]

All the parties are untrustworthy so no MP should feel safe. I feel it is high time for a disruptive change regardless of the consequences.

Funny trying to pin that on Reeves/Labour.

If you want to find someone to blame for the high numbers of foreign people taking jobs in this country then that person is obviously De Pfeffel.

 

[Sick Boy]

All the parties are untrustworthy so no MP should feel safe. I feel it is high time for a disruptive change regardless of the consequences.

Wasn't immigration from outside the EU touted as being a Brexit benefit? What else did you think was going to happen to those jobs being filled by people entering from the EU?

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Wasn't immigration from outside the EU touted as being a Brexit benefit? What else did you think was going to happen to those jobs being filled by people entering from the EU?

Yep for those making the most money
Ie those who are right behind reform

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Do you know how that compares with the established parties and do they charge at the same level? Sounds impressive from a standing start, but I have no point of reference.

Labour under Corbyn peaked at over 500,000 members. Don’t recall what the fee was though.

Their numbers have dropped by over 200,000 since his time as leader.