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Do you want to discuss boring politics? (31 Viewers)

  • Thread starter mrtrench
  • Start date Jun 14, 2020
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tisza

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 8:15 AM
  • #57,926
Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
The last page of this thread is exactly why all of this has become such a difficult thing to tackle.

We've got a story about grooming gangs, and the fact the victims once again don't feel heard or that this is being dealt with properly or fairly.

What are we talking about? Islamophobia, how bad Christianity is, and even Tommy Robinson has managed to make an appearance.
Click to expand...
Does seem the govt wants to get its"islamophobia" definitions in place before this grooming inquiry launches.
This grooming scandal is such a political minefield as no inquiry can't but be extremely critical of govt bodies, councils, police, social services and certain sections of the community.
For all the handwringing and political mud throwing in April Alexis Jay was in the media this week saying that still only 2 of her 20 recommendations have been addressed.
 
Reactions: Farmer Jim, wingy, chiefdave and 2 others

Earlsdon_Skyblue1

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 8:38 AM
  • #57,927
tisza said:
Does seem the govt wants to get its"islamophobia" definitions in place before this grooming inquiry launches.
This grooming scandal is such a political minefield as no inquiry can't but be extremely critical of govt bodies, councils, police, social services and certain sections of the community.
For all the handwringing and political mud throwing in April Alexis Jay was in the media this week saying that still only 2 of her 20 recommendations have been addressed.
Click to expand...

I see the victims that have quit the inquiry will only rejoin it if certain things are done as well, one of which is to sack Jess Phillips, who they feel has betrayed them.
 
Reactions: Farmer Jim, wingy and TomRad85

mmttww

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 9:34 AM
  • #57,928
re: the enquiry, for some balance, several survivors have publicly disagreed with those that have left. Hard to tell signal from noise when the scope or changes to it aren't in the public domain.
 
Reactions: Sky Blue Pete

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 9:46 AM
  • #57,929
tisza said:
For all the handwringing and political mud throwing in April Alexis Jay was in the media this week saying that still only 2 of her 20 recommendations have been addressed.
Click to expand...
How many people said this when it became about using demands for a national enquiry as political point scoring.

Time and time again it was pointed it we've had enquiries and fuck all had been done as a result but some of those in the spotlight were more interested in what they could gain for themselves rather than prioritising the victims.

Now we've got a predicatable problem in that its taking forever to set it up, as happens with most enquries. And because its a large scale national enquiry there's endless arguements about the scope. While you're got media reports of some survivors quitting because the scope is not what they feel it should be you've got others pushing for the opposite.

A complete, and predictable, mess that will in the best case scenario add months before anything gets done. Worse case scenario the whole thing gets binned and we start again.
 
Reactions: Sky Blue Pete and Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 9:58 AM
  • #57,930
mmttww said:
re: the enquiry, for some balance, several survivors have publicly disagreed with those that have left. Hard to tell signal from noise when the scope or changes to it aren't in the public domain.
Click to expand...

There is no scope or terms - that’s the problem
 

Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 10:13 AM
  • #57,931
rob9872 said:
Even looking at that now, it doesn't say that £350m is going to the NHS. It's saying let's fund it instead of sending £350m to the EU each week. Anyone who was taken in by it and thinks that what it's saying on either side is a bit simple.
Click to expand...
Well, given that Leave slapped in on the side of the bus, what does that tell you about the kind of people they were trying to convince then? They couldn't argue with those with a modicum of intelligence or critical thinking with genuine points so were left using lies trying to appeal to stupid people.

That tells you want their opinion was of the general public and their disingenuity. And that is still what Farage is trying to do now.
 

mmttww

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 10:13 AM
  • #57,932
Grendel said:
There is no scope or terms - that’s the problem
Click to expand...

there must be something that's been proposed or the survivors that have left the inquiry wouldn't have had anything to become frustrated about. Everything I've read talks about them not wanting certain people running it and them having concerns about the scope. Logically, for them to have concerns, there must have been something presented to them. If not, I fully don't get what's going on.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 10:17 AM
  • #57,933
mmttww said:
there must be something that's been proposed or the survivors that have left the inquiry wouldn't have had anything to become frustrated about. Everything I've read talks about them not wanting certain people running it and them having concerns about the scope. Logically, for them to have concerns, there must have been something presented to them. If not, I fully don't get what's going on.
Click to expand...

Of course there isn’t - that can’t happen until someone is appointed as a chair
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 10:18 AM
  • #57,934
Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
Well, given that Leave slapped in on the side of the bus, what does that tell you about the kind of people they were trying to convince then? They couldn't argue with those with a modicum of intelligence or critical thinking with genuine points so were left using lies trying to appeal to stupid people.

That tells you want their opinion was of the general public and their disingenuity. And that is still what Farage is trying to do now.
Click to expand...

The lies on the remain side were appealing to
Intelligent people?

Voters were misled over Brexit – but mostly by the Remain campaign

This week marks the anniversary of the Brexit vote, so you can expect to see lots of articles about the scandalous way that British voters were misled. How a group of manipulative and well-funded political charlatans played on the emotions and fears of credulous older voters less well educated...
capx.co
 
Reactions: CCFCSteve and rob9872

rob9872

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 10:23 AM
  • #57,935
Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
Well, given that Leave slapped in on the side of the bus, what does that tell you about the kind of people they were trying to convince then? They couldn't argue with those with a modicum of intelligence or critical thinking with genuine points so were left using lies trying to appeal to stupid people.

That tells you want their opinion was of the general public and their disingenuity. And that is still what Farage is trying to do now.
Click to expand...
There were lots of lies told by remain too - often associated with George Osbourne. What was their opinion of the general public?
 

rob9872

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 10:24 AM
  • #57,936
Grendel said:
The lies on the remain side were appealing to
Intelligent people?

Voters were misled over Brexit – but mostly by the Remain campaign

This week marks the anniversary of the Brexit vote, so you can expect to see lots of articles about the scandalous way that British voters were misled. How a group of manipulative and well-funded political charlatans played on the emotions and fears of credulous older voters less well educated...
capx.co
Click to expand...
Beat me to it!
 

mmttww

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 1:47 PM
  • #57,937
Grendel said:
can’t happen until someone is appointed as a chair
Click to expand...

then why are survivors unhappy about what the scope might be? I get that a ToR etc. isn't going to be nailed down without people in place to run the thing.
 

Sky Blue Pete

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 2:20 PM
  • #57,938
mmttww said:
then why are survivors unhappy about what the scope might be? I get that a ToR etc. isn't going to be nailed down without people in place to run the thing.
Click to expand...
Politicising the process
 

mmttww

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 2:58 PM
  • #57,939
Sky Blue Pete said:
Politicising the process
Click to expand...

as in you think they're trying to politicise it, or they feel it's being politicised? because reading up on it, trust in Phillips and co. being lost seems to be all about the potential for the scope to broaden to being more than just focused on grooming gangs.

Looks like that all stems from a survey sent asking the survivors panel if they want it to be focused on grooming gangs or to be broader than that. Which seems a bit dumb at this point! Not a great place for it all to start. Makes it look amateur at best.
 
Reactions: wingy

Sky Blue Pete

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 3:05 PM
  • #57,940
mmttww said:
as in you think they're trying to politicise it, or they feel it's being politicised? because reading up on it, trust in Phillips and co. being lost seems to be all about the potential for the scope to broaden to being more than just focused on grooming gangs.

Looks like that all stems from a survey sent asking the survivors panel if they want it to be focused on grooming gangs or to be broader than that. Which seems a bit dumb at this point! Not a great place for it all to start. Makes it look amateur at best.
Click to expand...
All groups politicising it
 

duffer

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 3:24 PM
  • #57,941
Sky Blue Pete said:
All groups politicising it
Click to expand...

Which feels like absolute madness, doesn't it?

It's worth pointing out that only four of the apparently twenty or so 'survivors' have kicked off about it. Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing, I don't know, but the result is just going to be further delays and both political parties focussing on the optics rather than just cracking on with it. I've got an inherent distrust of Jess Phillips, who I'm not sure is the Saint that she's made out to be, but regardless, demanding her resignation seems a bit extreme.

The danger here for the four survivors is that by making it overtly political they end up delaying the thing even further and hurting those others that want to get it going. What a mess.

Grooming gangs inquiry: Why is there a row?

A national inquiry into grooming gangs in England and Wales is in turmoil - how did we get here?
www.bbc.co.uk
 
Reactions: Grendel

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 3:39 PM
  • #57,942
mmttww said:
as in you think they're trying to politicise it, or they feel it's being politicised? because reading up on it, trust in Phillips and co. being lost seems to be all about the potential for the scope to broaden to being more than just focused on grooming gangs.

Looks like that all stems from a survey sent asking the survivors panel if they want it to be focused on grooming gangs or to be broader than that. Which seems a bit dumb at this point! Not a great place for it all to start. Makes it look amateur at best.
Click to expand...

The concern as expressed in the Casey Report is that it will try and water down the fact that mostly these gangs are culturally motivated to take and rape white girls.
 
Reactions: Earlsdon_Skyblue1
P

PVA

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 3:49 PM
  • #57,943
Badeneoch in particular seems to be desperate to politicise it.

And indeed she was called out for it by one of the potential chairs that pulled out, with him citing that as one of his reasons for doing so.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 3:50 PM
  • #57,944
duffer said:
Which feels like absolute madness, doesn't it?

It's worth pointing out that only four of the apparently twenty or so 'survivors' have kicked off about it. Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing, I don't know, but the result is just going to be further delays and both political parties focussing on the optics rather than just cracking on with it. I've got an inherent distrust of Jess Phillips, who I'm not sure is the Saint that she's made out to be, but regardless, demanding her resignation seems a bit extreme.

The danger here for the four survivors is that by making it overtly political they end up delaying the thing even further and hurting those others that want to get it going. What a mess.

Grooming gangs inquiry: Why is there a row?

A national inquiry into grooming gangs in England and Wales is in turmoil - how did we get here?
www.bbc.co.uk
Click to expand...

Your Hubris is incredible

I’m not sure why survivors are in inverted commas and you accuse victims of politicising the process.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 3:51 PM
  • #57,945
PVA said:
Badeneoch in particular seems to be desperate to politicise it.

And indeed she was called out for it by one of the potential chairs that pulled out, with him citing that as one of his reasons for doing so.
Click to expand...

I don’t think she’s been referenced by the victims has she?
 
P

PVA

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 3:53 PM
  • #57,946
Grendel said:
I don’t think she’s been referenced by the victims has she?
Click to expand...

I didn't say she has.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 3:55 PM
  • #57,947
PVA said:
I didn't say she has.
Click to expand...

So if she is “in particular desperate to politicise it” why have the victims targeted the Labour government- are they wrong then?
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 4:01 PM
  • #57,948
The reality is that these girls were failed by system and left to be abused by men who are Pakistani Muslims who targeted them because they were in their view white trash.

The deflector and defence shields will be on to try and avoid this basic fact. It happened because of a failure in public services and because of exploitation by an ethnic group motivated by their cultural prejudice against those who they felt were beneath their values and how women should be.

It’s a fact and many on here deny it and therefore excuse it.
 
Reactions: TomRad85 and wingy

Earlsdon_Skyblue1

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 4:03 PM
  • #57,949
Grendel said:
The reality is that these girls were failed by system and left to be abused by men who are Pakistani Muslims who targeted them because they were in their view white trash.

The deflector and defence shields will be on to try and avoid this basic fact. It happened because of a failure in public services and because of exploitation by an ethnic group motivated by their cultural prejudice against those who they felt were beneath their values and how women should be.

It’s a fact and many on here deny it and therefore excuse it.
Click to expand...

Correct.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 4:04 PM
  • #57,950
Ring of Steel is lurking I see!
 

mmttww

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 4:09 PM
  • #57,951
Grendel said:
it will try and water down the fact that mostly these gangs are culturally motivated to take and rape white girls.
Click to expand...

and it looks like someone putting a daft, ill thought out question in what should have been a simple survey has kicked this all off and slowed things down (again). Ridiculous that something which happened 20 years ago and had a seven year inquiry still hasn't really led to anything being done or changed.
 
Reactions: Sky Blue Pete

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 4:10 PM
  • #57,952
mmttww said:
and it looks like someone putting a daft, ill thought out question in what should have been a simple survey has kicked this all off and slowed things down (again). Ridiculous that something which happened 20 years ago and had a seven year inquiry still hasn't really led to anything being done or changed.
Click to expand...

You have kind of avoided the point this is about watering down the racial element as per the Casey Report?
 

mmttww

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 4:36 PM
  • #57,953
Grendel said:
You have kind of avoided the point this is about watering down the racial element as per the Casey Report?
Click to expand...

I'm not, I'm pointing out that someone asking about the scope in a survey (just grooming gangs or wider) looks like the thing that's prompted survivors leaving the panel.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 4:40 PM
  • #57,954
mmttww said:
I'm not, I'm pointing out that someone asking about the scope in a survey (just grooming gangs or wider) looks like the thing that's prompted survivors leaving the panel.
Click to expand...

Do you accept these girls were targeted as they were white?

The victims believe that
 

rob9872

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 4:45 PM
  • #57,955
Do we know how many were targeted out of a normal family unit or were they pretty much all more vulnerable and from the care home system?
 
Reactions: Sky Blue Pete

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 4:47 PM
  • #57,956
rob9872 said:
Do we know how many were targeted out of a normal family unit or were they pretty much all more vulnerable and from the care home system?
Click to expand...

All in care I would assume
 
Reactions: rob9872

rob9872

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 4:50 PM
  • #57,957
Given a like for responding, but of course in reality it should be a sad
 

Sky Blue Pete

Well-Known Member
  • 9 minutes ago
  • #57,958
5 of the survivors have said they’ll only stay if the safeguarding minister stays
 
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