Coronavirus Thread (Off Topic, Politics) (29 Viewers)

shmmeee · Aug 17, 2020

Ian1779 said:
Boris got in because he honoured the referendum.

Boris got in because Corbyn tanked. Johnson got what? 1% more than May? Roughly the same personal polling at the time.

Corbyn losing all the leavers and all the Remainers is what did it.

Should’ve stuck to the original Brexit policy I agree, but things had hardened so much if he had the remainers and leavers would still have left.

I think generally Skipal was the defining issue that cut through and he never recovered to have the personal ratings to make any policy proposal.

clint van damme · Aug 17, 2020

shmmeee said:
Boris got in because Corbyn tanked. Johnson got what? 1% more than May? Roughly the same personal polling at the time.

Corbyn losing all the leavers and all the Remainers is what did it.

Should’ve stuck to the original Brexit policy I agree, but things had hardened so much if he had the remainers and leavers would still have left.

I think generally Skipal was the defining issue that cut through and he never recovered to have the personal ratings to make any policy proposal.

If Skripal was such a huge issue why did people vote for a man who's in balls deep with all sorts of dodgy Russians?

Ian1779 · Aug 17, 2020

shmmeee said:
Boris got in because Corbyn tanked. Johnson got what? 1% more than May? Roughly the same personal polling at the time.

Corbyn losing all the leavers and all the Remainers is what did it.

Should’ve stuck to the original Brexit policy I agree, but things had hardened so much if he had the remainers and leavers would still have left.

I think generally Skipal was the defining issue that cut through and he never recovered to have the personal ratings to make any policy proposal.

But the biggest failing of Labour in allowing the Tories that extra 1% is not realising that it almost exclusively came from the ‘red wall’ - Labour ignored what their voter base wanted, and their membership didn't and still doesn’t reflect the same demographic.

Ian1779 · Aug 17, 2020

clint van damme said:
If Skripal was such a huge issue why did people vote for a man who's in balls deep with all sorts of dodgy Russians?

Because they didn’t hear about the Russian involvement in the Tories through Facebook/Papers/BBC.

shmmeee · Aug 17, 2020

clint van damme said:
If Skripal was such a huge issue why did people vote for a man who's in balls deep with all sorts of dodgy Russians?

Because he didn’t appear to back a foreign power publicly in the middle of a geopolitical crisis basically.

Standing up and saying “Maybe we should let the Russians tell us what happened” is far more damning than vague rumours about Johnson’s partying.

It’s about patriotism as always with Corbyn, played into existing prejudices.

clint van damme · Aug 17, 2020

Ian1779 said:
Because they didn’t hear about the Russian involvement in the Tories through Facebook/Papers/BBC.

Yep.

shmmeee · Aug 17, 2020

Ian1779 said:
But the biggest failing of Labour in allowing the Tories that extra 1% is not realising that it almost exclusively came from the ‘red wall’ - Labour ignored what their voter base wanted, and their membership didn't and still doesn’t reflect the same demographic.

I’d agree. The Brexit policy was awful and should never have gone ahead. I just don’t think at that point Corbyn had the political capital to pull it off as it requires trust from both sides. He had that in 2017, but his personal rating took a nosedive between 17 and 19

clint van damme · Aug 17, 2020

shmmeee said:
Because he didn’t appear to back a foreign power publicly in the middle of a geopolitical crisis basically.

Standing up and saying “Maybe we should let the Russians tell us what happened” is far more damning than vague rumours about Johnson’s partying.

It’s about patriotism as always with Corbyn, played into existing prejudices.

They're not rumours.
No problem with people criticising Corbyn on the issue it's just frustrating that others don't get the same scrutiny

Ian1779 · Aug 17, 2020

shmmeee said:
I’d agree. The Brexit policy was awful and should never have gone ahead. I just don’t think at that point Corbyn had the political capital to pull it off as it requires trust from both sides. He had that in 2017, but his personal rating took a nosedive between 17 and 19

I agree - he failed to come out fighting on the AS issue which was hugely inflated so it could be used as political capital, and allowed a narrative to take hold - then compounded by the Brexit intransigence.

Deleted member 5849 · Aug 17, 2020

shmmeee said:
I’d agree. The Brexit policy was awful and should never have gone ahead. I just don’t think at that point Corbyn had the political capital to pull it off as it requires trust from both sides. He had that in 2017, but his personal rating took a nosedive between 17 and 19

(I'm scared of turning this into the other thread, that shall remain nameless).

The Brexit policy was awful because it alienated leavers, remainers, and everybody in between as it tried to please everybody.

Had Lib Dems not panicked and lurched into a revoke at all costs, they'd have probably made more inroads, as their initial policy was pitched about right to get concerned floaters.

What they should have all done, of course, is resolved it before an election - be that a referendum, a soft Brexit, revoking, a hard Brexit. Then the election could have been fought on actual policy.

Anyway, we are where we are. I wonder how many people are feeling like @skybluesam66 atm... although with a large majority, it doesn't really matter how any of us feel now. The only threat is to Johnson himself if the Tories feel he's expendable, the threat is not to the government.

It would be nice if we had some of the more competent Tories (yes, there are some!) allowed a role in cabinet however, regardless of ideological difference.

Ian1779 · Aug 17, 2020

shmmeee said:
It’s about patriotism as always with Corbyn, played into existing prejudices.

I really hate the patriotism argument in general - right wing nutters love to exploit that narrative to do and say some pretty horrible things.

shmmeee · Aug 17, 2020

clint van damme said:
They're not rumours.
No problem with people criticising Corbyn on the issue it's just frustrating that others don't get the same scrutiny

They are to most people. They certainly weren’t Johnson’s publicly stated position like Corbyns support of the Russians was.

skybluetony176 · Aug 17, 2020

A-levels and GCSEs: U-turn as teacher estimates to be used for exam results

Education Secretary Gavin Williamson apologises to students and parents for the "distress" caused.

www.bbc.co.uk

shmmeee · Aug 17, 2020

Ian1779 said:
I really hate the patriotism argument in general - right wing nutters love to exploit that narrative to do and say some pretty horrible things.

It matters though. Same as being tough on crime and benefits cheats. These are things our voters care about as much as the middle class lefty types like us care about education policy or climate change. They’re the door fee for governing in this country.

And anyway, I do like my country, I am proud of it generally (not so much the last year or two).

Imagine having a manager with the Clinton Morrison “it’s Cov innit” attitude and how you’d feel. You want someone that, cringe as the phrase is “believes in Britain” and Corbyn never came across that he did. This goes double when we’re about to “strike out on our own”

Deleted member 5849 · Aug 17, 2020

skybluetony176 said:
A-levels and GCSEs: U-turn as teacher estimates to be used for exam results

Education Secretary Gavin Williamson apologises to students and parents for the "distress" caused.

www.bbc.co.uk

Christ, this is turning into absolute chaos.

Ian1779 · Aug 17, 2020

shmmeee said:
It matters though. Same as being tough on crime and benefits cheats. These are things our voters care about as much as the middle class lefty types like us care about education policy or climate change. They’re the door fee for governing in this country.

And anyway, I do like my country, I am proud of it generally (not so much the last year or two).

Imagine having a manager with the Clinton Morrison “it’s Cov innit” attitude and how you’d feel. You want someone that, cringe as the phrase is “believes in Britain” and Corbyn never came across that he did. This goes double when we’re about to “strike out on our own”

It does matter I know, I just find it sickening to see it exploited.

Ian1779 · Aug 17, 2020

Deleted member 5849 said:
Christ, this is turning into absolute chaos.

Wouldn’t have happened under Theresa

chiefdave · Aug 17, 2020

skybluetony176 said:
A-levels and GCSEs: U-turn as teacher estimates to be used for exam results

Education Secretary Gavin Williamson apologises to students and parents for the "distress" caused.

www.bbc.co.uk

Doesn't that just go back to the original problem that you've got a year where grades are way higher than every other year? Not that anyone pays attention to grades for anything other than getting into uni.

Walsgrave · Aug 17, 2020

Surely they could have set socially distanced exams? This year will be in no way comparable to any other year. I obviously sympathise with those who had their fate unfairly decided by an algorithm but the best way to mitigate against this was to postpone the exams. Its going to be mayhem for universities, is unfair on next year's cohort; and unfair on those whose teachers awarded grades in line with their ability. I don't think this year's cohort are whatever percentage cleverer at all levels than last year. So the only way to mitigate against this would surely to look at this year in isolation, because kids from the next cohort risk losing out.

clint van damme · Aug 17, 2020

Deleted member 5849 said:
Christ, this is turning into absolute chaos.

to be fair that's preferable to them digging their heels in.

Deleted member 5849 · Aug 17, 2020

Ian1779 said:
Wouldn’t have happened under Theresa

I did say (having learned from the past!) be careful what you wish for, when she was under threat.

tbf the same goes with Johnson. Compared to Raab or Patel, he's a shining beacon of respectability, and Sunak has about as much political integrity as him. Johnson might be as good as it gets!

skybluetony176 · Aug 17, 2020

Deleted member 5849 said:
Christ, this is turning into absolute chaos.

clint van damme · Aug 17, 2020

shmmeee said:
They are to most people. They certainly weren’t Johnson’s publicly stated position like Corbyns support of the Russians was.

which sort of proves my point. I know it's always been this way but it would be great if people tried thinking for themselves and doing a bit of research for one, it's really frustrating.

fernandopartridge · Aug 17, 2020

Walsgrave said:
Surely they could have set socially distanced exams? This year will be in no way comparable to any other year. I obviously sympathise with those who had their fate unfairly decided by an algorithm but the best way to mitigate against this was to postpone the exams. Its going to be mayhem for universities, is unfair on next year's cohort; and unfair on those whose teachers awarded grades in line with their ability. I don't think this year's cohort are whatever percentage cleverer at all levels than last year. So the only way to mitigate against this would surely to look at this year in isolation, because kids from the next cohort risk losing out.

Nobody misses out because a conditional offer is fulfiled.

At least they've made a u-turn, the car salesman must be dispatched from being SoS and given something a bit more in keeping with his intellect

Grendel · Aug 17, 2020

clint van damme said:
to be fair that's preferable to them digging their heels in.

Well teachers have proved collectively they were incapable of actually examining impartially so not really

clint van damme · Aug 17, 2020

fernandopartridge said:
Nobody misses out because a conditional offer is fulfiled.

At least they've made a u-turn, the car salesman must be dispatched from being SoS and given something a bit more in keeping with his intellect

as someone who is currently updating his less than impressive CV at least mine doesn't have a 'sacked for treason' on it!

Ian1779 · Aug 17, 2020

Walsgrave said:
Surely they could have set socially distanced exams? This year will be in no way comparable to any other year. I obviously sympathise with those who had their fate unfairly decided by an algorithm but the best way to mitigate against this was to postpone the exams. Its going to be mayhem for universities, is unfair on next year's cohort; and unfair on those whose teachers awarded grades in line with their ability. I don't think this year's cohort are whatever percentage cleverer at all levels than last year. So the only way to mitigate against this would surely to look at this year in isolation, because kids from the next cohort risk losing out.

What should have happened is that Ofqual/OFSTED/HMI should have been in schools ratifying and cross analysing these submissions months ago. A lot of schools have done a huge amount of quality assurance on these grades to make them as fair as possible. No doubt some schools will have taken advantage of this - but this could also have been mitigated at the start by OFSTED coming out and telling schools to expect their submissions to be analysed and be expected to be able to justify to an inspection team.

Walsgrave · Aug 17, 2020

fernandopartridge said:
Nobody misses out because a conditional offer is fulfiled.

At least they've made a u-turn, the car salesman must be dispatched from being SoS and given something a bit more in keeping with his intellect

I'm on about universities where so few actually miss their grades that they won't have places.

With the awarding of predicted grades, virtually all offers will be met. Most universities give out far more offers than they have places. So we'll end up with a situation where the top universities all have to give places to people that have made an offer to and no one will go to the lower ranked institutions. The universities wont be able to cope logistically!

Moreover, there will be a large number of students who will 'take a punt' at going for a better university next year, and they'll be competing with those who have to take exams next year.

clint van damme · Aug 17, 2020

Grendel said:
Well teachers have proved collectively they were incapable of actually examining impartially so not really

not saying it's perfect but some of the down grades were scandalous.

Grendel · Aug 17, 2020

Ian1779 said:
What should have happened is that Ofqual/OFSTED/HMI should have been in schools ratifying and cross analysing these submissions months ago. A lot of schools have done a huge amount of quality assurance on these grades to make them as fair as possible. No doubt some schools will have taken advantage of this - but this could also have been mitigated at the start by OFSTED coming out and telling schools to expect their submissions to be analysed and be expected to be able to justify to an inspection team.

Yes that I actually agree with now its a case of want a A well its yours

Grendel · Aug 17, 2020

clint van damme said:
not saying it's perfect but some of the down grades were scandalous.

So were the teacher upgrades

Ian1779 · Aug 17, 2020

Grendel said:
Yes that I actually agree with now its a case of want a A well its yours

When I did ours for Maths I believed that OFSTED would want to come and see justification for what we awarded. I would actually welcome this especially if we were to end up having to do something similar for the next cohort.

clint van damme · Aug 17, 2020

Grendel said:
So were the teacher upgrades

yet the education secretary didn't have the wherewithal to put in place something similar to Ians suggestion and has now had to do a u turn.

Ian1779 · Aug 17, 2020

Grendel said:
So were the teacher upgrades

It would be interesting to find out where these were. Did some schools get wind of the fact the algorithm wouldn’t be applied to small cohorts? If they did then this would explain how the bigger cohorts got graded down so substantially to fit in the normal distribution of grades.

Sky Blue Pete · Aug 17, 2020

That will be the story. It will have been leaked. Williamson has got to resign

Coronavirus Thread (Off Topic, Politics) (29 Viewers)

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