12 year old raped in nuneaton (4 Viewers)

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Tourism and students bring income. Although if what BSB suggests that last year net student migration was 250k, then that accounts for over half of the year's net and I assume goes against the help that's needed gor caring and the NHS which is why everyone is saying we need more people. I doubt they're paying high student fees and working hard for 3 years to wipe the arses of our pensioners.

Legal immigrants tend to be net contributors to the economy, including students.

 

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[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Why do you presume Reform would fail?
And what's really bizarre is you actually look forward to watching them fail !!!

It never ceases to amaze me that people would want a government to fail, this is our country ffs, surely you'd want to see any government succeed, and make the country a better place for all.

Personally I dont give a fuck who's in office, as long as they do a good and fair job for all.
We've had 14 years of a piss poor conservative government, and now Labour look even worse (if that's even possible)

Surely to God there has to be another solution, either Reform or whoever, but something drastic has to change.

History.

People with their kinds of plans always fail. Sometimes it can look good for a short while but it goes to shit in the end.

And considering their biggest thing is about transfer of power and wealth to the rich (they actually don't care about migration and if anything like it because it suppresses wages and increases profits for the rich) which always ends in a shitshow then all evidence says that they'll fail. And given what they've done in the local councils since election doesn't do anything to make me think otherwise.

 

[rob9872]

Legal immigrants tend to be net contributors to the economy, including students.

I know, but they still need housing and rely on services, and they're not propping up this ageing or care system, so it all adds to yhe same problem. Whichever way you cut it we can't have a system that relies on unlimited migration into our infrastructure. Keep telling yourself differently but surely there must be a point even for the most liberal minded to say enough?

 

[shmmeee]

What the old adage? "Politicians are wannabe celebrities without the looks."

“Politics is show biz for ugly people”

 

[shmmeee]

I know, but they still need housing and rely on services, and they're not propping up this ageing or care system, so it all adds to yhe same problem. Whichever way you cut it we can't have a system that relies on unlimited migration into our infrastructure. Keep telling yourself differently but surely there must be a point even for the most liberal minded to say enough?

Foreign students are generally spending huge amounts on fees and keeping universities open in places with not much other economy left. If you gut them you’re raising fees for British students, probably also raising taxpayer subsidies to these places, or you’re telling a bunch of voters their kid can’t go to uni or entire town they’ve lost their major economy.

Students tend to live in high density cities, don’t tend to use the NHS or other services as much as locals and spend in the local economy. The idea they are a drain is nonsense.

Your entire premise seems to be we can massively cut tax revenue and somehow this will lead to improved services.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Foreign students are generally spending huge amounts on fees and keeping universities open in places with not much other economy left. If you gut them you’re raising fees for British students, probably also raising taxpayer subsidies to these places, or you’re telling a bunch of voters their kid can’t go to uni or entire town they’ve lost their major economy.

Students tend to live in high density cities, don’t tend to use the NHS or other services as much as locals and spend in the local economy. The idea they are a drain is nonsense.

Your entire premise seems to be we can massively cut tax revenue and somehow this will lead to improved services.

That’s the political mantra
Cut taxes improve services

 

[Nick]

That’s the political mantra
Cut taxes improve services

I guess people just need to see their services improving while taxes and costs go up, rather than taxes and costs going up but services declining.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I know, but they still need housing and rely on services, and they're not propping up this ageing or care system, so it all adds to yhe same problem. Whichever way you cut it we can't have a system that relies on unlimited migration into our infrastructure. Keep telling yourself differently but surely there must be a point even for the most liberal minded to say enough?

Find me a post by anyone that says ‘I want unlimited migration’ or ‘I want an open door immigration policy’. On the other hand, you literally have said you want all immigration stopped, though apparently not in the case of students but maybe yes now you know net student migration is very high.

Put simply you haven’t thought it through.

 

[chiefdave]

I know, but they still need housing and rely on services, and they're not propping up this ageing or care system, so it all adds to yhe same problem. Whichever way you cut it we can't have a system that relies on unlimited migration into our infrastructure. Keep telling yourself differently but surely there must be a point even for the most liberal minded to say enough?

Apart from a handful of loons I don't think there's actually many people in the country that want unlimited migration.

But we have some fundamental issues. If we hit the stop button right now it wouldn't take long for things to unravel. Just off the top of my head:

Universities are struggling with the drop in overseas students, let alone stopping them completely. Within a year you'd be looking at a third of universities struggling to stay open. What happens to the staff and also the students part way through courses?

The latest figures I can find show the NHS has over 121,000 vacancies they can't fill. There's around 265,000 non British NHS staff. If we get rid of the non Brits we've got a shortage of around 386,000 staff, that's approximately a third of all NHS positions vacant. Do you think we can have a functioning service?

There's around 1.7m people employed in social care and approximately 10% of positions are vacant. There's over half a million non Brits employed in the care sector so if we get rid of those we're looking at around 680,000 vacant positions. That's about 40% of the workforce, how long do you think it would be before the care sector collapsed?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I guess people just need to see their services improving while taxes and costs go up, rather than taxes and costs going up but services declining.

Welcome to the left

 

[chiefdave]

Foreign students are generally spending huge amounts on fees and keeping universities open in places with not much other economy left. If you gut them you’re raising fees for British students, probably also raising taxpayer subsidies to these places, or you’re telling a bunch of voters their kid can’t go to uni or entire town they’ve lost their major economy.

a third of universities are said to not have enough funds to be able to operate for 100 days and are classed as at risk. they are in that status because Sunak tightened the rules around student visas which caused a drop in numbers.

if you completely turned off the tap you'd have a huge number of universities closing before British students could finish their degrees. They'd be left tens of thousands in debt with no qualification to show for it. That's before you even consider the redundancies and turning towns and cities into ghost towns with large numbers of empty buildings.

 

[rob9872]

Foreign students are generally spending huge amounts on fees and keeping universities open in places with not much other economy left. If you gut them you’re raising fees for British students, probably also raising taxpayer subsidies to these places, or you’re telling a bunch of voters their kid can’t go to uni or entire town they’ve lost their major economy.

Students tend to live in high density cities, don’t tend to use the NHS or other services as much as locals and spend in the local economy. The idea they are a drain is nonsense.

Your entire premise seems to be we can massively cut tax revenue and somehow this will lead to improved services.

Net migration is post education. I've already said they add whilst studying.

 

[rob9872]

Find me a post by anyone that says ‘I want unlimited migration’ or ‘I want an open door immigration policy’. On the other hand, you literally have said you want all immigration stopped, though apparently not in the case of students but maybe yes now you know net student migration is very high.

Put simply you haven’t thought it through.

Could you be more condescending? Put simply I've thought it through and I'm fed up of paying more for less. You seem to have all the answers but no solution other than bury your head in the sand.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Could you be more condescending? Put simply I've thought it through and I'm fed up of paying more for less.

That’s a separate issue to foreigners being allowed in. With respect you were condescending in the first place, putting arguments in people’s mouths they didn’t write.

You also thought students weren’t net immigrants and didn’t realise they contributed a net quarter million to the figures. I’m not being condescending, it’s what you said.

 

[rob9872]

Apart from a handful of loons I don't think there's actually many people in the country that want unlimited migration.

But we have some fundamental issues. If we hit the stop button right now it wouldn't take long for things to unravel. Just off the top of my head:

Universities are struggling with the drop in overseas students, let alone stopping them completely. Within a year you'd be looking at a third of universities struggling to stay open. What happens to the staff and also the students part way through courses?

The latest figures I can find show the NHS has over 121,000 vacancies they can't fill. There's around 265,000 non British NHS staff. If we get rid of the non Brits we've got a shortage of around 386,000 staff, that's approximately a third of all NHS positions vacant. Do you think we can have a functioning service?

There's around 1.7m people employed in social care and approximately 10% of positions are vacant. There's over half a million non Brits employed in the care sector so if we get rid of those we're looking at around 680,000 vacant positions. That's about 40% of the workforce, how long do you think it would be before the care sector collapsed?

Nobody has suggested removing non Brits, my very first post said anyone here can stay.

 

[rob9872]

That’s a separate issue to foreigners being allowed in. With respect you were condescending in the first place, putting arguments in people’s mouths they didn’t write.

You also thought students weren’t net immigrants and didn’t realise they contributed a net quarter million to the figures. I’m not being condescending, it’s what you said.

Students aren't net, post grads are. Students in cycle will be net zero.

 

[Sick Boy]

To me it seems a short term problem. Once that ageing population dies off, there will be less people with more services available and the equilibrium restored. As in supply and demand, care staff eould currently need to be paid more to make it more attractive, as that changes, it would be back in line. A bit like plumbers are currently.

The ageing population will just be replaced by another ageing population, though.

 

[rob9872]

The ageing population will just be replaced by another ageing population, though.

Of less people though.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Students aren't net, post grads are. Students in cycle will be net zero.

Anyway. Would you also ban people from passing from Ireland into NI?

 

[Sick Boy]

Of less people though.

You're not going to see a significant decrease in people who are currently in their 50s, though. The number of foreign-born people who'd jump ship once the policy came in would be minimal.

 

[rob9872]

Anyway. Would you also ban people from passing from Ireland into NI?

For what purpose? Although if i did have my way I'd make Ireland one nation.

 

[rob9872]

You're not going to see a significant decrease in people who are currently in their 50s, though. The number of foreign-born people who'd jump ship once the policy came in would be minimal.

Again my original post said two generations, it also said care costs would need to be paid at a higher rate until all things equalised.

Edit, before the next reply I also said I'd be happy to pay for my share of that if guaranteed to direct services.

 

[CCFCSteve]

a third of universities are said to not have enough funds to be able to operate for 100 days and are classed as at risk. they are in that status because Sunak tightened the rules around student visas which caused a drop in numbers.

if you completely turned off the tap you'd have a huge number of universities closing before British students could finish their degrees. They'd be left tens of thousands in debt with no qualification to show for it. That's before you even consider the redundancies and turning towns and cities into ghost towns with large numbers of empty buildings.

So we need to keep importing hundreds of thousands of students a year to keep unis afloat and hundreds of thousands of workers to pay the pensions of the elderly and increasing welfare bill

How the fuck is this efficient or sustainable (not having a go at you Dave, just the logic of how we’re seemingly running the country…basically just kicking the can !)

ps sunak was 100% correct to change student visas as like with other stuff the system was being gamed…

‘In recent years, there's been a significant increase in the number of dependents accompanying students on UK student visas. For example, in the year ending September 2023, nearly a quarter (24%) of all sponsored study-related visas granted were to dependents of students. This is a substantial rise from 5% in 2019.’

 

[chiefdave]

Nobody has suggested removing non Brits, my very first post said anyone here can stay.

A lot of employees are transient. Remove them or not if you're not letting new people in you end up in the same position, or well on the way towards it.

We've already seen that with minor changes to entry requirements for students and care workers.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

For what purpose? Although if i did have my way I'd make Ireland one nation.

Banning ‘illegals’ crossing the land border.

 

[chiefdave]

So we need to keep importing hundreds of thousands of students a year to keep unis afloat and hundreds of thousands of workers to pay the pensions of the elderly and increasing welfare bill

How the fuck is this efficient or sustainable

The question is not is it sustainable, its how do you turn the tap off without everything collapsing. Look at the reaction when there's a suggestion of an increase in minimum wage or working conditions. Its all 'the economy will collapse' but the impact of those sort of policies are a rounding error compared to some of the things being proposed.

If just the universities listed as at risk close how many people redundant is that? Then add on the kids who now can't get uni places who are also in the job market.

Its a problem we should never have created, I've always been of the belief that the vast majority of people in university should be there because they're learning required skills for which there is a job waiting at the end. But we are where we are and unwinding it is going to be very difficult.

 

[shmmeee]

Net migration is post education. I've already said they add whilst studying.

Then we’re back to industries not having the people they need. See the US and how they’ve had to row back for tech and agriculture because business needs workers at both ends of the spectrum. And you can say train them here but someone needs to pick and pack in warehouses and clean old people’s arses and if they’re all becoming data scientists and bio researchers then they’ve got to come from somewhere. Or you’re shutting down a less vital industry which needs mass or casual labour.

You keep coming back to the iron triangle you need either people, very large tax take from those left, or vastly reduced services especially for the old. A smaller economy from fewer workers reduces corporate tax take as well.

None of this is theoretical. We can look to advanced Asian countries for what happens when you marry low birth rate with low immigration.

There’s a basic demographic fairness question here too. If you get to a point where it’s 2:1 worker to pensioner ratio, you’ve got a minority demanding the majority pay huge tax rises on their behalf.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Then we’re back to industries not having the people they need. See the US and how they’ve had to row back for tech and agriculture because business needs workers at both ends of the spectrum. And you can say train them here but someone needs to pick and pack in warehouses and clean old people’s arses and if they’re all becoming data scientists and bio researchers then they’ve got to come from somewhere. Or you’re shutting down a less vital industry which needs mass or casual labour.

You keep coming back to the iron triangle you need either people, very large tax take from those left, or vastly reduced services especially for the old. A smaller economy from fewer workers reduces corporate tax take as well.

None of this is theoretical. We can look to advanced Asian countries for what happens when you marry low birth rate with low immigration.

Not to mention how such a ridiculous policy makes us look to other countries.

 

[Grendel]

Well it didn't take long to prove you wrong.

First migrants detained under 'one in, one out' deal with France

The detentions came as people arrived in Dover on Wednesday, the first day the pilot scheme came into force.

www.bbc.co.uk

His many have gone back today? It doesn’t say?

 

[rob9872]

Not to mention how such a ridiculous policy makes us look to other countries.

Because looking good to other countries who couldn't care less about us is high on the priority list

 

[shmmeee]

There’s a reason the fascists are into androids and waifus

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Because looking good to other countries who couldn't care less about us is high on the priority list

Ban net contributors to the economy coming in

Ban people we need to fill jobs coming in

Accept students and tourists because they put money into the economy

Got it right?

 

[rob9872]

Ban net contributors to the economy coming in

Ban people we need to fill jobs coming in

Accept students and tourists because they put money into the economy

Got it right?

Ffs it's going round in circles again you've offered no solution other than keep bringing in more and more.

We only need people to fill those jobs because they're poorly paid. That can be addressed.

I'm also not sure why we need so many students including our own. Universities used to be for the elite not to prop up a failing economy of grifters who don't want to work.

 

[CCFCSteve]

The question is not is it sustainable, its how do you turn the tap off without everything collapsing. Look at the reaction when there's a suggestion of an increase in minimum wage or working conditions. Its all 'the economy will collapse' but the impact of those sort of policies are a rounding error compared to some of the things being proposed.

If just the universities listed as at risk close how many people redundant is that? Then add on the kids who now can't get uni places who are also in the job market.

Its a problem we should never have created, I've always been of the belief that the vast majority of people in university should be there because they're learning required skills for which there is a job waiting at the end. But we are where we are and unwinding it is going to be very difficult.

We’ve allowed unis to be run totally inefficiently, chancellors being paid a fortune, spending loads on buildings etc but it’s all built on milking foreign students and kids that would probably be far better off not going to uni to start with.

Like getting cheap foreign labour in rather than investing in people, improving their skills and paying what they’re due (why do you think so much of big business didn’t want Brexit) or companies/ organisations investing in equipment/machinery etc to make them more productive and efficient

All short term shit, no long term vision or people willing to make tough decisions (see governments recently). The chickens are now coming home to roost though and I don’t think any political party has got a clue on how to sort it out, which leaves us open to populism and parties like Reform, Corbyn/Sultanas lot all promising the earth with no substance/idea of how to deliver it

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Ffs it's going round in circles again you've offered no solution other than keep bringing in more and more.

We only need people to fill those jobs because they're poorly paid. That can be addressed.

I'm also not sure why we need so many students including our own. Universities used to be for the elite not to prop up a failing economy of grifters who don't want to work.

There you go again ascribing arguments to people who didn’t make them.

I agree that the pay for the jobs and conditions also need to improve. The problem is that requires you to do things you have opposed before, like improving these for public sector workers.