The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (8 Viewers)

[dutchman]

It's going to be priceless when levels of migration remain around the same and the ordinary people are still getting shafted with a shit deal from those at the top.

At least then some might realise that a lot of the country's woes are actually due to actions closer to home.

That's a very good reason for leaving and one which I've mentioned before!

Without the EU to blame for its policies the UK government will be forced to face the consequences of its own actions.

 

[dutchman]

No. Apparently the government didn’t. He is the head of an institute of criminology in Lower Saxony.

So he knows nothing about criminology then?

 

[dutchman]

I got mugged by skinheads in the East at reunification, but that was because of the collapse of communism. It created a level of violence because of the difference in living standards and high unemployment in the East. It also increased right wing violence which is still higher in the East ; where AfD has more support.

That was entirely down to Helmut Kohl's decision to create parity between the east and west German Mark, which made the east German economy totally unsustainable.

That mistake has since been repeated on a gargantuan scale with the creation of the Eurozone.

 

[Grendel]

No. Apparently the government didn’t. He is the head of an institute of criminology in Lower Saxony. Lower Sacony did.

His report is contested. The report is about whether young Muslim men are more likely to commit violent crimes than non religious young men. His opponents say his figures are too small to paint a true picture. He denies that and says young Muslims are more likely to commit violent crime.

I cannot see the areas which Grendel is referring to. Pity he cannot post a link to the report.

I don’t see why I should a post a link to anything.

Your assertion that the Brexit vote was a consequence of media meddling and this was the reason the result went the way it did is an outright lie as is your absurd use of the same argument to explain the rise in nationalism across the EU

Acid attacks by the way the largest growth is in Italy since 2013

 

[skybluetony176]

I don’t see why I should a post a link to anything.

Your assertion that the Brexit vote was a consequence of media meddling and this was the reason the result went the way it did is an outright lie as is your absurd use of the same argument to explain the rise in nationalism across the EU

Acid attacks by the way the largest growth is in Italy since 2013

I’m guessing it’s something you’ve read in some far right propaganda and are too embarrassed to post a link and admit where you get your education from.

 

[martcov]

So he knows nothing about criminology then?

? I said he was working for Lower Saxony and not the federal government with this report.

Other experts claim his methodology was false to come to these conclusions.

Obviously the alt right and Nazis think he is correct as it fits their views. And Grendel.

I am neutral as I don’t know enough about it.

 

[martcov]

I’m guessing it’s something you’ve read in some far right propaganda and are too embarrassed to post a link and admit where you get your education from.

Yes, it has been seized on by the usual suspects, so your theory is more than likely correct.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

That was entirely down to Helmut Kohl's decision to create parity between the east and west German Mark, which made the east German economy totally unsustainable.

That mistake has since been repeated on a gargantuan scale with the creation of the Eurozone.

See...Mart simply cannot grasp that his reasoning offered in his post "I got mugged by skinheads in the East at reunification, but that was because of the collapse of communism. It created a level of violence because of the difference in living standards and high unemployment in the East. It also increased right wing violence which is still higher in the East ; where AfD has more support." in it's raw form is tranferrable elsewhere.
He is in total denial on many topics surrounding the EU & Germany it seems.

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[martcov]

I don’t see why I should a post a link to anything.

Your assertion that the Brexit vote was a consequence of media meddling and this was the reason the result went the way it did is an outright lie as is your absurd use of the same argument to explain the rise in nationalism across the EU

Acid attacks by the way the largest growth is in Italy since 2013

You keep denying the social media and YouTube campaigns are having an effect on people’s perceptions. The people carrying out the campaigns think otherwise, probably based on their own research, as they are confident enough to confirm it on film - openly and clandestinely taken.

It is claimed by multiple sources, on both sides, that people vote based on perception not facts. We don’t have Referendums in the UK as a form of government because of this.

Were there more acid attacks in Italy? Does Italy‘s problem with these attacks negate our problem?

You sound like Bazza. He thinks that the Moped attacks in the UK are caused by the availability of mopeds in the UK compared with the number of mopeds in Germany. Do away with mopeds and there will be less crime in the UK. Or increase the number of mopeds in Germany and the German crime rate will rise making the UK look better. A bit like you trying to make the situation look better by mentioning growth in acid crime in Italy, but not the actual numbers.

 

[martcov]

See...Mart cannot understand that his post "I got mugged by skinheads in the East at reunification, but that was because of the collapse of communism. It created a level of violence because of the difference in living standards and high unemployment in the East. It also increased right wing violence which is still higher in the East ; where AfD has more support." simply cannot grasp that his reasoning for being attacked in Germany is in it's raw form is tranferrable elsewhere.
He is in total denial on many topics surrounding the EU & Germany it seems.

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I quoted my experience as an example of what happens when there is social upheaval. Of course these things occur elsewhere where there are rapid changes.

What am I denying?

 

[martcov]

That was entirely down to Helmut Kohl's decision to create parity between the east and west German Mark, which made the east German economy totally unsustainable.

That mistake has since been repeated on a gargantuan scale with the creation of the Eurozone.

Not completely true. The East had only experienced democracy for a short time during the Weimar Republic.

People were used to non democratic forms of government. Socialism had lost the ideological battle and was discredited. The reaction was to openly go for the right which had been suppressed by the communists for over 40 years.

Kohl‘s promises of quick economic recovery, which didn’t materialise, and the 1:1 and 1:2 exchange rate over 10000 Ostmark only made the economy unsustainable at that time, which didn’t help the situation.

The lack of experience with immigration resulted in Rostock and Hoyerwerda attacks on migrant accommodation. This lack of experience with immigrants shows today in the over proportional support for the AfD. Most of the East is lowly populated and rural.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

I quoted my experience as an example of what happens when there is social upheaval. Of course these things occur elsewhere where there are rapid changes.

What am I denying?

That the social upheaval caused by EU migration & free movement policy might have actually been a major part of people's reasoning for voting to leave the EU

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[Grendel]

I’m guessing it’s something you’ve read in some far right propaganda and are too embarrassed to post a link and admit where you get your education from.

Its the BBC Tony

'Migrants fuel' German violent crime rise

 

[Grendel]

You keep denying the social media and YouTube campaigns are having an effect on people’s perceptions. The people carrying out the campaigns think otherwise, probably based on their own research, as they are confident enough to confirm it on film - openly and clandestinely taken.
It is claimed by multiple sources, on both sides, that people vote based on perception not facts. We don’t have Referendums in the UK as a form of government because of this.

I don't deny it - what I deny is that there is any evidence the social media manipulation is only on side of debate and not the other - as I keep asking you to prove - unless you deny that the Remain campaign did not produce similar social media tactics - as well as a pro-leave document in every household, lies about emergency budgets. You have zero evidence one area of manipulation was more advanced than the other. As for boasting its impact of course. These people want new clients so will always exaggerate impacts.

Were there more acid attacks in Italy? Does Italy‘s problem with these attacks negate our problem?

You sound like Bazza. He thinks that the Moped attacks in the UK are caused by the availability of mopeds in the UK compared with the number of mopeds in Germany. Do away with mopeds and there will be less crime in the UK. Or increase the number of mopeds in Germany and the German crime rate will rise making the UK look better. A bit like you trying to make the situation look better by mentioning growth in acid crime in Italy, but not the actual numbers.

Well done you completely fell into my trap. Of course there are more acid attacks in the UK but according to you when it comes to economic growth the stats that are important are those associated with percentage growth as opposed to the actual numbers so I just adopted your rationale and threw it back at you.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

You keep denying the social media and YouTube campaigns are having an effect on people’s perceptions. The people carrying out the campaigns think otherwise, probably based on their own research, as they are confident enough to confirm it on film - openly and clandestinely taken.

It is claimed by multiple sources, on both sides, that people vote based on perception not facts. We don’t have Referendums in the UK as a form of government because of this.

Were there more acid attacks in Italy? Does Italy‘s problem with these attacks negate our problem?

You sound like Bazza. He thinks that the Moped attacks in the UK are caused by the availability of mopeds in the UK compared with the number of mopeds in Germany. Do away with mopeds and there will be less crime in the UK. Or increase the number of mopeds in Germany and the German crime rate will rise making the UK look better. A bit like you trying to make the situation look better by mentioning growth in acid crime in Italy, but not the actual numbers.

MORE MartFacts!!! I think YOU raised moped crime being higher in the UK. All I did was I ask YOU the question about SALES of mopeds in Germany relative to the UK. Availabilty has only been mentioned by YOU in yet another knee-jerk rant & various fantasy scenarios because I showed that caught yourself out with a subsequent post.

You are actually quite bonkers

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[martcov]

MORE MartFacts!!! I think YOU raised moped crime being higher in the UK. All I did was I ask YOU the question about SALES of mopeds in Germany relative to the UK. Availabilty has only been mentioned by YOU in yet another knee-jerk rant & various fantasy scenarios because I showed that caught yourself out with a subsequent post.

You are actually quite bonkers

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You asked if moped sales were as high in Germany when I asked why these crimes were increasing in the UK. Sales = availablabilty. So if you weren’t comparing sales/ availability in relation to Moped crime.. why did you ask in that discussion? Do you want to buy a moped in Germany? Bonkers fits you very well actually.

 

[martcov]

That the social upheaval caused by EU migration & free movement policy might have actually been a major part of people's reasoning for voting to leave the EU

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Yes, that’s what I am saying. The free movement within the EU is accepted here, but not so in he UK.

 

[Grendel]

You asked if moped sales were as high in Germany when I asked why these crimes were increasing in the UK. Sales = availablabilty. So if you weren’t comparing sales/ availability in relation to Moped crime.. why did you ask in that discussion? Do you want to buy a moped in Germany? Bonkers fits you very well actually.

Surely it’s tge percentage growth than actual number that’s more important?

 

[martcov]

I don't deny it - what I deny is that there is any evidence the social media manipulation is only on side of debate and not the other - as I keep asking you to prove - unless you deny that the Remain campaign did not produce similar social media tactics - as well as a pro-leave document in every household, lies about emergency budgets. You have zero evidence one area of manipulation was more advanced than the other. As for boasting its impact of course. These people want new clients so will always exaggerate impacts.



Well done you completely fell into my trap. Of course there are more acid attacks in the UK but according to you when it comes to economic growth the stats that are important are those associated with percentage growth as opposed to the actual numbers so I just adopted your rationale and threw it back at you.

Our percentage growth is less than Germany for example. And is slowing... why?

 

[SkyblueBazza]

You asked if moped sales were as high in Germany when I asked why these crimes were increasing in the UK. Sales = availablabilty. So if you weren’t comparing sales/ availability in relation to Moped crime.. why did you ask in that discussion? Do you want to buy a moped in Germany? Bonkers fits you very well actually.

Sales DEFINITELY does NOT = Sales.
ANY business person should be able to tell ypu that. You can build & market as many bloody mopeds you want. Sales is what brings money whether you sell them for £1, £1.50, £2500 or whatever number (you being so fond of them) the customer is prepared to pay for the moped.
Just in case you needed the lesson?

I asked you as an idea in reply to your question & I seem to remember it was one of several ideas.

You are bonkers & you talk utter bollocks!

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[Grendel]

Our percentage growth is less than Germany for example. And is slowing... why?

Italian attack’s with acid is quadrupled- why?

 

[SkyblueBazza]

Yes, that’s what I am saying. The free movement within the EU is accepted here, but not so in he UK.

Ah now ypu have added more into the mix. It is accepted within the EU...I wonder exactly how welcome it is in reality - you know...like the rught leaning members of the German community?
My guess is that there is a very small minority in the UK that do not accept...just like there is in Germany. People such as yourself latch onto that to rubbish the rest of us in the UK...which is you a. Believing what you read in the newspapers b. Discriminating against the UK coz you rarely refer to the same things happening in Germany.
You seem to think we are generally a racist nation bizarrely.

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[Grendel]

Ah now ypu have added more into the mix. It is accepted within the EU...I wonder exactly how welcome it is in reality - you know...like the rught leaning members of the German community?
My guess is that there is a very small minority in the UK that do not accept...just like there is in Germany. People such as yourself latch onto that to rubbish the rest of us in the UK...which is you a. Believing what you read in the newspapers b. Discriminating against the UK coz you rarely refer to the same things happening in Germany.
You seem to think we are generally a racist nation bizarrely.

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The UK does not even have the worst popularity rating of EU countries - that belongs to Italy

 

[dutchman]

The free movement within the EU is accepted here

By whom? Are you claiming to represent the opinion of ordinary Germans when you're not even one yourself? There's now great resentment of migrant workers and ex-patriots where I come from and I suspect the same is true in Germany.

 

[martcov]

By whom? Are you claiming to represent the opinion of ordinary Germans when you're not even one yourself? There's now great resentment of migrant workers and ex-patriots where I come from and I suspect the same is true in Germany.

Never seen that here. Refugees yes, but EU citizens never. Maybe I mix with decent people on the whole. I do know some Nazis though, but they don’t like Turks or Arabs.

 

[Astute]

Never seen that here. Refugees yes, but EU citizens never. Maybe I mix with decent people on the whole. I do know some Nazis though, but they don’t like Turks or Arabs.

I don't know any Nazis. I have never known any Nazis.

It must be the people that you mix with as you continually tell us that there isn't a problem where you live and not a problem in Germany.

 

[Grendel]

Never seen that here. Refugees yes, but EU citizens never. Maybe I mix with decent people on the whole. I do know some Nazis though, but they don’t like Turks or Arabs.

To be fair people in Germany have a habit of not seeing things going on around them

 

[martcov]

I don't know any Nazis. I have never known any Nazis.

It must be the people that you mix with as you continually tell us that there isn't a problem where you live and not a problem in Germany.

There isn’t a problem where I live. There is however a small number of extremists. I have a pub and having a pub you get to meet all sorts of people. Amongst these I know a couple of dodgy people. These people were always there. They exist in every society. The refugee crisis gave them some publicity and they are on the fringes of the AfD.

Knowing a lot of people doesn’t mean that I mix with them. They have been customers now and again. I have thrown a couple out for making a Hitler salute and banned them. They were with the HSV Fans. The other fans are behind me on that.

There are problems with right and left wingers, but it is not massive.

 

[martcov]

To be fair people in Germany have a habit of not seeing things going on around them

Nothing is going on around me. I applauded the refugees with the rest of the crowd when they were invited to a Holstein Kiel match in 2015 and travelled on trains with them around the country.

I have seen pickpockets and a guy I know knocked one put at Cologne Station for pickpocketing. But, nothing special is happening around me. There are stories of minor things that I have heard from friends. But I have seen plenty of things in the 70s on the road with city fans that were worse.

Germany is a relative safe place to live.

 

[Grendel]

Nothing is going on around me. I applauded the refugees with the rest of the crowd when they were invited to a Holstein Kiel match in 2015 and travelled on trains with them around the country.

I have seen pickpockets and a guy I know knocked one put at Cologne Station for pickpocketing. But, nothing special is happening around me. There are stories of minor things that I have heard from friends. But I have seen plenty of things in the 70s on the road with city fans that were worse.

Germany is a relative safe place to live.

Do you think the uk is a safe place to live compared to most other Eu countries?

 

[SkyblueBazza]

There isn’t a problem where I live. There is however a small number of extremists. I have a pub and having a pub you get to meet all sorts of people. Amongst these I know a couple of dodgy people. These people were always there. They exist in every society. The refugee crisis gave them some publicity and they are on the fringes of the AfD.

Knowing a lot of people doesn’t mean that I mix with them. They have been customers now and again. I have thrown a couple out for making a Hitler salute and banned them. They were with the HSV Fans. The other fans are behind me on that.

There are problems with right and left wingers, but it is not massive.

Mart...can you not see that wherever we live there is a very small minoritt of left & right wing, or generally extreme views about stuff?

Where you live is not different in that respect to whhere I, Grendel or Sick Boy live! It is what it is...people are people the world over. It is media & politicians that stir peole into a migrant, farm subsiby, racist or Brexit frenzy. Most of us just get on with living!

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[martcov]

By whom? Are you claiming to represent the opinion of ordinary Germans when you're not even one yourself? There's now great resentment of migrant workers and ex-patriots where I come from and I suspect the same is true in Germany.

I don’t represent anyone. I travel around a lot and meet loads of people on festivals. I follow the news. I see lots of resentment towards the refugees, but nothing like that against EU citizens. Except gypsies maybe.

 

[martcov]

Mart...can you not see that wherever we live there is a very small minoritt of left & right wing, or generally extreme views about stuff?

Where you live is not different in that respect to whhere I, Grendel or Sick Boy live! It is what it is...people are people the world over. It is media & politicians that stir peole into a migrant, farm subsiby, racist or Brexit frenzy. Most of us just get on with living!

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Yes, that is what I said in effect. It is the heightened social media and press reports from papers such as the Express, that have influenced people’s opinions against EU citizens in Britain- moreso than in Germany.

 

[Astute]

There isn’t a problem where I live. There is however a small number of extremists.

So extremists are not a problem?

 

[Astute]

Yes, that is what I said in effect. It is the heightened social media and press reports from papers such as the Express, that have influenced people’s opinions against EU citizens in Britain- moreso than in Germany.

So what caused the extremists in Germany?