Tommy Robinson (12 Viewers)

tommydazzle

Well-Known Member
The two things I really “miss” about religion despite being a lifelong atheist, are communal singing which I get from CCFC and believe is great for the soul, and the general instant community.

For a brief period workplaces did a similar job. I was at GPT/Marconi towards the end and got a taste of that but most of it like you saw at Cadbury’s and the like is well before my time.

We need a mass social network in real life for atheists. Football is the closest thing there is left and even that’s being chopped up, commercialised, sanitised and individualised.
That's an interesting one Shmmeee, it's weird I think that we even have this word 'atheism'. It's just a default position - for example, we don't have words for people who don't collect stamps or don't go to football don't believe in alien abduction etc. We're not defined by our non-belief and probably are harder to categorise into a community.

I do like communal singing though.
 

singers_pore

Well-Known Member
Can it? Not sure in this day and age that they could get away with that teaching. Can you find a link/quote where it says that? (And by the way I’m not Muslim or religious!:))

Some excerpts from my book:

The Quran’s position on slavery is very similar to the Bible’s. Muslims are told that they can take non-Muslim prisoners of war as slaves (Quran 4:23-24; 23:6; 33:50; 70:30). There are many references to slavery in the Hadith too. Among all the Hadith, Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim are considered by many Muslims, especially Sunnis, to be authentic and reliable sources of information on the life of Muhammed. According to these Hadith, Muhammed’s soldiers took female captives as war booty and raped them without any censure from Muhammed (Sahih Bukhari 34:432; 62:137; Sahih Muslim 3371). Indeed, the reason the soldiers spoke to Muhammed about the matter is that they were unsure whether it was sinful to use the method of coitus interrputus when raping their captives. The soldiers asked Muhammed about this because they wanted to sell the women after raping them and pregnant women would fetch a lower price. Muhammed did not say he had any problem with the rapes or with his followers beating their slaves. His only stipulation was that they should not flog their wives as harshly as they flog their slaves (Sahih Bukhari 60:466; 62:132).

Of course, many Muslims today do not regard slavery as acceptable, but there are some Islamic scholars who do. According to the Saudi Information Agency, Sheikh Al-Fazwan stated in 2003 that slavery is a part of Islam and those who argue against slavery are ignorant and not scholars. When he made these remarks, Sheikh Al-Fazwan was a member of the Senior Council of Clerics, which is Saudi Arabia’s highest religious authority, and his books were being used to teach 5 million students in Saudi Arabia and overseas. Saudi Arabia was one of the last countries to outlaw slavery in 1962.

The Islamic scholar, Professor Suad Saleh, has decreed that Allah permits Muslim men to rape non-Muslim women in order to humiliate them. In a video uploaded to Youtube, she cited the Israel conflict as a situation in which such rapes would be justifiable on religious grounds.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGOhjw-85bA. www.india.com/news/world/muslim-men-can-rape-non-muslim-women-to-teach-them-a-lesson-claims-woman-islamic-professor-873381/

Based at Al-Azhar University in Egypt, Professor Saleh was the Dean of Faculty of Islamic Studies for Women. Professor Saleh is not the only scholar to hold such extreme views. The Egyptian cleric, Abu Ishaq Al-Heweny, has said:

In every war there is a winner and a loser. According to the rules of Islam, all the people in the [conquered] country become booty […] What is the fate of the prisoners of war according to the sharia? Since they constitute booty, they should be divided between the mujahideen. According to the hadith, the law states that anyone who did not participate in the raid does not get a share of the booty. This is well known. If you didn’t participate in the jihad, you don’t get to share the booty […] Great. As soon as this system is in place, there has to be a slave market, where [you] can sell slaves, slavegirls, and children. Each of these ‘heads’ comes with a price. Let’s say I am entitled to five ‘heads.’ I don’t need any of them, but could use a little cash. Am I supposed to hang them just to get rid of them? No, you can sell them in the market.”

www.memri.org/tv/egyptian-cleric-abu-ishaq-al-heweny-explains-enslavement-people-captured-jihad-they-all-become
 

Sky Blue Pete

Well-Known Member
I’d love that atheist church. Though the fact that article is 6 years old and I still haven’t heard of one suggests they didn’t do too well.
Couldn’t find any on google close either. The idea is good though it’s more like a free seminar isn’t it?
 

Sky Blue Pete

Well-Known Member
Sounds like my kind of religion! So, where's the next meeting? The Open Arms, you say? Is that the one on Daventry Rd? If so, can you get me a pint of Guinness in with a Jameson chaser and I'll see ya later on!
Lol this Sunday but the book is pretty Christian based. Falling upward by Richard rohr. It is excellent though
 

Sky Blue Pete

Well-Known Member
We respect people's choice to believe what they want but we don't have to respect the belief. Religion makes absurd claims and is of course up for ridicule, satire and debate. Nobody has the right not to be offended. I think religion demeans humanity and find its claims offensive. So what, I'm offended!

It's a dangerous road to go down when ridiculous ideas can't be ridiculed for fear of upsetting someone. David Icke's ideas are rightfully laughed at but I'm sure he has followers who demand respect. Where do you draw the line? Religion always wants to be a special case but doesn't deserve it. I never name call people on this forum but will certainly pull holes in their ideas if I think they are up for question.
Some excellent points. Its when it’s personal that there’s a problem but we have to be able to debate robustly ideas and opinions or we may as well live in Saudi Arabia or Russia
 

Sky Blue Pete

Well-Known Member
Some excerpts from my book:

The Quran’s position on slavery is very similar to the Bible’s. Muslims are told that they can take non-Muslim prisoners of war as slaves (Quran 4:23-24; 23:6; 33:50; 70:30). There are many references to slavery in the Hadith too. Among all the Hadith, Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim are considered by many Muslims, especially Sunnis, to be authentic and reliable sources of information on the life of Muhammed. According to these Hadith, Muhammed’s soldiers took female captives as war booty and raped them without any censure from Muhammed (Sahih Bukhari 34:432; 62:137; Sahih Muslim 3371). Indeed, the reason the soldiers spoke to Muhammed about the matter is that they were unsure whether it was sinful to use the method of coitus interrputus when raping their captives. The soldiers asked Muhammed about this because they wanted to sell the women after raping them and pregnant women would fetch a lower price. Muhammed did not say he had any problem with the rapes or with his followers beating their slaves. His only stipulation was that they should not flog their wives as harshly as they flog their slaves (Sahih Bukhari 60:466; 62:132).

Of course, many Muslims today do not regard slavery as acceptable, but there are some Islamic scholars who do. According to the Saudi Information Agency, Sheikh Al-Fazwan stated in 2003 that slavery is a part of Islam and those who argue against slavery are ignorant and not scholars. When he made these remarks, Sheikh Al-Fazwan was a member of the Senior Council of Clerics, which is Saudi Arabia’s highest religious authority, and his books were being used to teach 5 million students in Saudi Arabia and overseas. Saudi Arabia was one of the last countries to outlaw slavery in 1962.

The Islamic scholar, Professor Suad Saleh, has decreed that Allah permits Muslim men to rape non-Muslim women in order to humiliate them. In a video uploaded to Youtube, she cited the Israel conflict as a situation in which such rapes would be justifiable on religious grounds.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGOhjw-85bA. www.india.com/news/world/muslim-men-can-rape-non-muslim-women-to-teach-them-a-lesson-claims-woman-islamic-professor-873381/

Based at Al-Azhar University in Egypt, Professor Saleh was the Dean of Faculty of Islamic Studies for Women. Professor Saleh is not the only scholar to hold such extreme views. The Egyptian cleric, Abu Ishaq Al-Heweny, has said:

In every war there is a winner and a loser. According to the rules of Islam, all the people in the [conquered] country become booty […] What is the fate of the prisoners of war according to the sharia? Since they constitute booty, they should be divided between the mujahideen. According to the hadith, the law states that anyone who did not participate in the raid does not get a share of the booty. This is well known. If you didn’t participate in the jihad, you don’t get to share the booty […] Great. As soon as this system is in place, there has to be a slave market, where [you] can sell slaves, slavegirls, and children. Each of these ‘heads’ comes with a price. Let’s say I am entitled to five ‘heads.’ I don’t need any of them, but could use a little cash. Am I supposed to hang them just to get rid of them? No, you can sell them in the market.”

www.memri.org/tv/egyptian-cleric-abu-ishaq-al-heweny-explains-enslavement-people-captured-jihad-they-all-become
Awful isn’t it and you can read clearly in the Old Testament where Jewish leaders are saying god says leave no one alive. Kill all men women and children and cattle. And that’s where you have the fact that no one would murder a child except Many are being starved, bombed, manipulated, coerced, murdered and mistreated in every generation and every country to various degrees. Why? Sometimes cause religious texts say it’s ok to do it. Just awful and one reason why I battle constantly with a faith that says god is in control
 

tommydazzle

Well-Known Member
Agreed Pete, personal attacks usually means you've lost the argument and I tend to stop reading at that point. I suppose it's the anonymity of forums that makes it easy for people to be aggressive and rude to each other.

I know rational argument rarely changes the mind of the faithful and it would take a miracle to change mine!
 

tommydazzle

Well-Known Member
Awful isn’t it and you can read clearly in the Old Testament where Jewish leaders are saying god says leave no one alive. Kill all men women and children and cattle. And that’s where you have the fact that no one would murder a child except Many are being starved, bombed, manipulated, coerced, murdered and mistreated in every generation and every country to various degrees. Why? Sometimes cause religious texts say it’s ok to do it. Just awful and one reason why I battle constantly with a faith that says god is in control
I believe even in the New Testament that Jesus never condemned slavery.
 

tommydazzle

Well-Known Member
Some excerpts from my book:

The Quran’s position on slavery is very similar to the Bible’s. Muslims are told that they can take non-Muslim prisoners of war as slaves (Quran 4:23-24; 23:6; 33:50; 70:30). There are many references to slavery in the Hadith too. Among all the Hadith, Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim are considered by many Muslims, especially Sunnis, to be authentic and reliable sources of information on the life of Muhammed. According to these Hadith, Muhammed’s soldiers took female captives as war booty and raped them without any censure from Muhammed (Sahih Bukhari 34:432; 62:137; Sahih Muslim 3371). Indeed, the reason the soldiers spoke to Muhammed about the matter is that they were unsure whether it was sinful to use the method of coitus interrputus when raping their captives. The soldiers asked Muhammed about this because they wanted to sell the women after raping them and pregnant women would fetch a lower price. Muhammed did not say he had any problem with the rapes or with his followers beating their slaves. His only stipulation was that they should not flog their wives as harshly as they flog their slaves (Sahih Bukhari 60:466; 62:132).

Of course, many Muslims today do not regard slavery as acceptable, but there are some Islamic scholars who do. According to the Saudi Information Agency, Sheikh Al-Fazwan stated in 2003 that slavery is a part of Islam and those who argue against slavery are ignorant and not scholars. When he made these remarks, Sheikh Al-Fazwan was a member of the Senior Council of Clerics, which is Saudi Arabia’s highest religious authority, and his books were being used to teach 5 million students in Saudi Arabia and overseas. Saudi Arabia was one of the last countries to outlaw slavery in 1962.

The Islamic scholar, Professor Suad Saleh, has decreed that Allah permits Muslim men to rape non-Muslim women in order to humiliate them. In a video uploaded to Youtube, she cited the Israel conflict as a situation in which such rapes would be justifiable on religious grounds.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGOhjw-85bA. www.india.com/news/world/muslim-men-can-rape-non-muslim-women-to-teach-them-a-lesson-claims-woman-islamic-professor-873381/

Based at Al-Azhar University in Egypt, Professor Saleh was the Dean of Faculty of Islamic Studies for Women. Professor Saleh is not the only scholar to hold such extreme views. The Egyptian cleric, Abu Ishaq Al-Heweny, has said:

In every war there is a winner and a loser. According to the rules of Islam, all the people in the [conquered] country become booty […] What is the fate of the prisoners of war according to the sharia? Since they constitute booty, they should be divided between the mujahideen. According to the hadith, the law states that anyone who did not participate in the raid does not get a share of the booty. This is well known. If you didn’t participate in the jihad, you don’t get to share the booty […] Great. As soon as this system is in place, there has to be a slave market, where [you] can sell slaves, slavegirls, and children. Each of these ‘heads’ comes with a price. Let’s say I am entitled to five ‘heads.’ I don’t need any of them, but could use a little cash. Am I supposed to hang them just to get rid of them? No, you can sell them in the market.”

www.memri.org/tv/egyptian-cleric-abu-ishaq-al-heweny-explains-enslavement-people-captured-jihad-they-all-become
Yes disturbing stuff. I recently read Amanda Lindhout's very gripping memoir (The House in the Sky) of her and her boyfriend being kidnapped by Somalis. She tries to read the Koran when she is held captive to see how she might be treated by her captors. To put it bluntly she is not reassured despite trying to befriend her young guards. A brilliantly written book.
 

Houchens Head

Fairly well known member from Malvern
Do people forget that the Bible and the Quran were and other religious material, were all written by humans - not their Gods. The teachings are what the original followers want you to read. Also, after over 2,000 years later with the Bible and 1400 years with the Quran, words and meanings have altered somewhat throughout history? Trouble is, the followers still take the books ad verbatim. They won't adjust the outdated interpretations to today's modern ideologies.
 

Sky Blue Pete

Well-Known Member
I believe even in the New Testament that Jesus never condemned slavery.
Not to evangelise but I think that was more he came to show the people the nature of god not to get involved in petty human squabbles Over slavery or money or sexual preference etc but what do I lnow
 

Sky Blue Pete

Well-Known Member
Do people forget that the Bible and the Quran were and other religious material, were all written by humans - not their Gods. The teachings are what the original followers want you to read. Also, after over 2,000 years later with the Bible and 1400 years with the Quran, words and meanings have altered somewhat throughout history? Trouble is, the followers still take the books ad verbatim. They won't adjust the outdated interpretations to today's modern ideologies.
Yep bang on. You sure you don’t want to come and help us at the open arms??

It’s god breathed not god written. It’s men (mainly) writing in many different ways what they understand to be god’s truth in their time for their people

Well said
 

Houchens Head

Fairly well known member from Malvern
Yep bang on. You sure you don’t want to come and help us at the open arms??

It’s god breathed not god written. It’s men (mainly) writing in many different ways what they understand to be god’s truth in their time for their people

Well said
Bit too far for me to travel, SBP. But best wishes for future meetings.
 

Captain Dart

Well-Known Member
Not to evangelise but I think that was more he came to show the people the nature of god not to get involved in petty human squabbles Over slavery or money or sexual preference etc but what do I lnow
Not to evangelize says he attempting to evangelize. FFS!
 

singers_pore

Well-Known Member
Do people forget that the Bible and the Quran were and other religious material, were all written by humans - not their Gods. The teachings are what the original followers want you to read. Also, after over 2,000 years later with the Bible and 1400 years with the Quran, words and meanings have altered somewhat throughout history? Trouble is, the followers still take the books ad verbatim. They won't adjust the outdated interpretations to today's modern ideologies.

That’s true but for all his faults Jesus wasn’t a murderer or a rapist whereas Muhammad was. That surely has something to do with the differences we see today between Christians and Muslims. At least Christians can claim that they are trying to follow the peaceful example of Jesus.
 

martcov

Well-Known Member
Yep bang on. You sure you don’t want to come and help us at the open arms??

It’s god breathed not god written. It’s men (mainly) writing in many different ways what they understand to be god’s truth in their time for their people

Well said

Basically men can write any old crap then. Rob, steal, enslave and rape the neighbouring tribes and then say they understand it to be god‘s truth? What a bad god to allow that without correction.
 

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
That’s true but for all his faults Jesus wasn’t a murderer or a rapist whereas Muhammad was. That surely has something to do with the differences we see today between Christians and Muslims. At least Christians can claim that they are trying to follow the peaceful example of Jesus.

it was war mongering Christians that created the vacuum which allowed ISIS to flourish.
 

Sky Blue Pete

Well-Known Member
Basically men can write any old crap then. Rob, steal, enslave and rape the neighbouring tribes and then say they understand it to be god‘s truth? What a bad god to allow that without correction.
Not really. People who are honestly seeking to write god’s truth for their culture and their understanding. To think god stopped speaking through human being thousands of years ago is a little insane. In fact he clearly has spoken through the ages therough the lives of prophetic men and women who have embodied the values jesus is recorded as embodying. You can’t read all the bible as a literal history
 

Adge

Well-Known Member
Not really. People who are honestly seeking to write god’s truth for their culture and their understanding. To think god stopped speaking through human being thousands of years ago is a little insane. In fact he clearly has spoken through the ages therough the lives of prophetic men and women who have embodied the values jesus is recorded as embodying. You can’t read all the bible as a literal history
So God was a he was he?:emoji_grin:
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
It’s strange how people would be affronted at the mocking of a poster on the grounds of race, sex or gender identity but when it comes to religion all is fine and dandy
 

Houchens Head

Fairly well known member from Malvern
That’s true but for all his faults Jesus wasn’t a murderer or a rapist whereas Muhammad was. That surely has something to do with the differences we see today between Christians and Muslims. At least Christians can claim that they are trying to follow the peaceful example of Jesus.
If you were brought up the way I was with sadistic nuns and paedo priests, you'd think differently!
 

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