The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (97 Viewers)

[clint van damme]

Always makes me laugh when people say "oh this building was built by EU money" and "we get EU funding for this project"

It's our money ffs, for every £2 we give we get £1 back and told where to spend it. EU money doesn't exist it's member states taxpayers money mainly Britain and German. No wonder they are shitting themselves they want our money and it's going to go. What was it 100b? Not hard to see what the EU is all about.

I know, truly there is dumb & dumber!

the IFS says different.

 

[fernandopartridge]

I know, truly there is dumb & dumber!

The other thing to bear in mind about national governments spending "EU money" is that it has numerous strings attached:

1. European Regional Development Fund and European Social Fund beneficiaries have to put a plaque up to say it's been funded by the EU. It's just propaganda.

2. If a public body like the RDA when it existed applies for £5m to help towards the Arena building costs, it has to match it with its own spending (you'll see it in the council report into the stadium build costs)

3. The EC will remove funding that doesn't comply with the reams of funding rules, rules that bring great administrative costs of compliance



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[martcov]

I have always said net 175 million a week approx. It is you that sometimes quotes out of context.

But the money doesn't come back to the taxpayer. It goes where the EU says. And it isn't always worthwhile projects.

Yes a lot of it goes to farmers. Where does the rest go? It would be better if we had a bigger say.

And it would otherwise always go to worthwhile products in the UK?

 

[martcov]

The other thing to bear in mind about national governments spending "EU money" is that it has numerous strings attached:

1. European Regional Development Fund and European Social Fund beneficiaries have to put a plaque up to say it's been funded by the EU. It's just propaganda.

2. If a public body like the RDA when it existed applies for £5m to help towards the Arena building costs, it has to match it with its own spending (you'll see it in the council report into the stadium build costs)

3. The EC will remove funding that doesn't comply with the reams of funding rules, rules that bring great administrative costs of compliance



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1. A very normal procedure with big projects. Only when the letters EU are involved is it a problem for people like yourself..

2. Perfectly normal. Happens a lot in financing. More likely to succeed when people are prepared to invest as much with their own money.
Only when the letters EU are involved is it a problem for people like yourself..

3. Perfectly normal and a necessary move to make corruption or misappropriation more difficult. Praiseworthy actually.
Only when the letters EU are involved is it a problem for people like yourself..

You have an population of 500 million people in 28 states in the EU, I would have thought it would have been possible to find plenty of genuine reasons for criticism without resorting to Faragisms.

 

[martcov]

So you agree that it needs massive reform?

Catch you later. Game is on.

I don't know anyone who doesn't think there is a need for reform The EU is not very old ( our monarchy is over a thousand years old as a comparison ). The extended EU is even younger. The EU is like a toddler, it has a long life in front of it and needs to grow ( not in size, but in experience ). We have learnt that nation states acting for purely selfish reasons always end up getting involved in wars. The EU may also end up in wars, but there are 28 countries in Europe that they won't be against at the moment. We have a long way to go and we must constantly press for improvements and accept constructive criticism. Twats talking about blue passports and encouraging youngsters to watch war films have no place in modern society - even if they are given a Goebbels style radio slot to spew their crap every week.

 

[Astute]

And it would otherwise always go to worthwhile products in the UK?

So it is more worthwhile to let the EU decide where the money goes that we hand over and us not have a say in the matter?

 

[Astute]

1. A very normal procedure with big projects. Only when the letters EU are involved is it a problem for people like yourself..

2. Perfectly normal. Happens a lot in financing. More likely to succeed when people are prepared to invest as much with their own money.
Only when the letters EU are involved is it a problem for people like yourself..

3. Perfectly normal and a necessary move to make corruption or misappropriation more difficult. Praiseworthy actually.
Only when the letters EU are involved is it a problem for people like yourself..

You have an population of 500 million people in 28 states in the EU, I would have thought it would have been possible to find plenty of genuine reasons for criticism without resorting to Faragisms.

So you admit that the EU needs to change. But you don't like anyone saying anything against it.

 

[Astute]

We have a long way to go and we must constantly press for improvements and accept constructive criticism.

How can we ever believe that the EU will ever accept constructive criticism when we have EU supporters like yourself that defends everything that they do?

 

[Grendel]

1. A very normal procedure with big projects. Only when the letters EU are involved is it a problem for people like yourself..

2. Perfectly normal. Happens a lot in financing. More likely to succeed when people are prepared to invest as much with their own money.
Only when the letters EU are involved is it a problem for people like yourself..

3. Perfectly normal and a necessary move to make corruption or misappropriation more difficult. Praiseworthy actually.
Only when the letters EU are involved is it a problem for people like yourself..

You have an population of 500 million people in 28 states in the EU, I would have thought it would have been possible to find plenty of genuine reasons for criticism without resorting to Faragisms.

lol you accuse someone of faragisms when all you can do is preach the gospel of merkel - you are a joke.

 

[martcov]

lol you accuse someone of faragisms when all you can do is preach the gospel of merkel - you are a joke.

What is the gospel of merkel? Where have I quoted it?

 

[martcov]

How can we ever believe that the EU will ever accept constructive criticism when we have EU supporters like yourself that defends everything that they do?

I don't defend everything - I just point out where you are quoting things that are not factually true. It may seem like that if there are a lot of "misconceptions" flying around.

 

[martcov]

So you admit that the EU needs to change. But you don't like anyone saying anything against it.

Yes there are things that need changing - but not everything is wrong.

 

[martcov]

So it is more worthwhile to let the EU decide where the money goes that we hand over and us not have a say in the matter?

It may be or it may not be - depends on the facts.

 

[Grendel]

What is the gospel of merkel? Where have I quoted it?

Where has Fp produced a faragism whatever that means. You've been on here the last 3 days trying to pretend the EU has nothing to do with rising bigotry and nationalism.

 

[Grendel]

I don't defend everything - I just point out where you are quoting things that are not factually true. It may seem like that if there are a lot of "misconceptions" flying around.

Are any of these statements a misconception or a fact;

Theresa May has more support from the uk electorate than Merkel in Germany

The far right vote in the western areas of Germany has doubled since the last election

A million voters switched from Merkel to a far right party

A far right party has never had a seat in the uk parliament.

 

[martcov]

Are any of these statements a misconception or a fact;

Theresa May has more support from the uk electorate than Merkel in Germany

The far right vote in the western areas of Germany has doubled since the last election

A million voters switched from Merkel to a far right party

A far right party has never had a seat in the uk parliament.

Theresa May has more support from the uk electorate than Merkel in Germany

No. - and nothing to do with the EU.

The far right vote in the western areas of Germany has doubled since the last election

Could well be - I haven't checked - and nothing to do with the EU.

A million voters switched from Merkel to a far right party

Yes. Apparently so - and nothing to do with the EU.

A far right party has never had a seat in the uk parliament.

Not surprising as there is no proportional representation. TBF UKIP would have been like the AfD if the UK had proportional representation - and nothing to do with the EU.

 

[Grendel]

Theresa May has more support from the uk electorate than Merkel in Germany

No. - and nothing to do with the EU.

The far right vote in the western areas of Germany has doubled since the last election

Could well be - I haven't checked - and nothing to do with the EU.

A million voters switched from Merkel to a far right party

Yes. Apparently so - and nothing to do with the EU.

A far right party has never had a seat in the uk parliament.

Not surprising as there is no proportional representation. TBF UKIP would have been like the AfD if the UK had proportional representation - and nothing to do with the EU.

The votes in the west German areas averaged 10% compared to 21% in the east.

UKIP is practically socialist compared to ukip which is a single issue party - compare to the BNP - how did they do?

 

[fernandopartridge]

1. A very normal procedure with big projects. Only when the letters EU are involved is it a problem for people like yourself..

2. Perfectly normal. Happens a lot in financing. More likely to succeed when people are prepared to invest as much with their own money.
Only when the letters EU are involved is it a problem for people like yourself..

3. Perfectly normal and a necessary move to make corruption or misappropriation more difficult. Praiseworthy actually.
Only when the letters EU are involved is it a problem for people like yourself..

You have an population of 500 million people in 28 states in the EU, I would have thought it would have been possible to find plenty of genuine reasons for criticism without resorting to Faragisms.

Not at all. The accusation of Farageism is complete rubbish.

I have first hand experience of the points i made, including contracts worth less than £100k still being subject to the EU plaque requirement, even small ESF 'Community Grants'.

My point on match funding is that it effectively makes the net contribution from the EU zero or negative.

EU funding for project - (UK contributions + Match funding) =<zero

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[Grendel]

So martcov says rise in right wing nationalism in every country but the uk has nothing to do with the EU - ok

 

[martcov]

Where has Fp produced a faragism whatever that means. You've been on here the last 3 days trying to pretend the EU has nothing to do with rising bigotry and nationalism.

A Faragism is virtually anything that turns everything into "why the EU is bad". It is getting beyond a joke.

The EU is not solely responsible for bigotry and nationalism. Another example of a Brexiteer viewpoint. In fact the idea is to get away from that e.g. to protect minorities. People like Farage, the AfD, the whole leave campaign and what went on before in the press are examples of the people responsible for constantly bigging up every weak point in the EU, or twisting everything around to fit "the EU is bad". FP's post is an example of banal things being used to beat the EU with. Totally normal procedures being classed as negative purely because the EU is involved.

The EU has achieved a united Europe of 28 states - which is why it is under attack from people like Trump, Farage, Neo Nazis, Putin, the rich and powerful conservative establishment and their press. Putin backs AfD. They are pro Russian and Weiland - top candidate AfD - described the German government as puppets of the victorious powers ( USA, France and Britain ). They are calling for a closer relationship with Russia - no surprise there.

Putin's angle is to get the EU to drop the sanctions imposed until he does a deal on the Ukraine. The AfD is a useful pressure group on Merkel as Kanzlerin of the most powerful EU country. Trump wouldn`t shake hands with Merkel and I don't know whether he has congratulated her yet. Trump wants the EU to fail because of his political views and the collapse of the EU or disarray would be helped by a weakened Germany, which would help his MAGA project ( at least he may think that ).

 

[martcov]

Not at all. The accusation of Farageism is complete rubbish.

I have first hand experience of the points i made, including contracts worth less than £100k still being subject to the EU plaque requirement, even small ESF 'Community Grants'.

My point on match funding is that it effectively makes the net contribution from the EU zero or negative.

EU funding for project - (UK contributions + Match funding) =<zero

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So the EU puts no money in? The plaque requirement seems normal to me.

 

[martcov]

So martcov says rise in right wing nationalism in every country but the uk has nothing to do with the EU - ok

The rise in right wing nationalism in the UK is not solely because of the leave campaign, but it has a lot to do with it. In Germany it has little to do with the EU. It is largely the refugee crisis and the handling of it. Another angle is the hate mongering against the USA bias of the system. The AfD and other extreme right wing parties - largely in the East - are calling for a relationship with Russia rather than the USA.

 

[Grendel]

The rise in right wing nationalism in the UK is not solely because of the leave campaign, but it has a lot to do with it. In Germany it has little to do with the EU. It is largely the refugee crisis and the handling of it. Another angle is the hate mongering against the USA bias of the system. The AfD and other extreme right wing parties - largely in the East - are calling for a relationship with Russia rather than the USA.

There is zero rise in nationalism in the U.K. - that's my point. UKIP was an anti eu party - the real right wing parties have seen declines compared to rising facist movements in Europe - why?

 

[martcov]

There is zero rise in nationalism in the U.K. - that's my point. UKIP was an anti eu party - the real right wing parties have seen declines compared to rising facist movements in Europe - why?

The nationalism in the U.K. concentrates itself on the EU - and muslims. These are the enemies of the plucky Brits who fought against the Third Reich and are sure as hell not going to give in to Mad Merkel's Fourth Reich in Brussels. The EU is guilty of letting millions of Muslims, including terrorists and lazy good for nothing cowards who should be dying for there country ( not ma view ).... Read the reader's comments in the Mail and Telegraph if you don't believe me that there are people with these extreme nationalistic and ridiculous views in the UK. You say the parties have seen declines, that is because UKIP and the general shift to the right pulled the rug from under them. BNP saw that coming and tried to convince their followers to stick with them. It didn't work. The anti EU feeling has been stoked to the point of hysteria. The question is where do they go when we are no longer in the EU? This jingoistic feeling is not going to go away.

 

[martcov]

The votes in the west German areas averaged 10% compared to 21% in the east.

UKIP is practically socialist compared to ukip which is a single issue party - compare to the BNP - how did they do?

Point 1. Yes, that's what I said. I specified that in Kiel they got 6,9% and in my ward 3,4%. It is a regional phenomenon. ( Worse in the East than in the West ).

Point 2. They destroyed the BNP. It's members defected to UKIP - a single issue right wing party. The reason being that the priority was EU bashing which was acceptable to the press and well known public figures were involved. This made being a right wing nationalist perfectly acceptable in Britain. A few people got beaten up and many more have been insulted, but there a large number of people can now publicly come out with their hatred for the "foreign" EU on social media - and many can have a dig at refugees, asylum seekers, Muslims and if it carries on, then add Jews and " queers " to the list of acceptable targets. Brexit has turned the clock back.

 

[SIR ERNIE]

Point 1. Yes, that's what I said. I specified that in Kiel they got 6,9% and in my ward 3,4%. It is a regional phenomenon. ( Worse in the East than in the West ).

Point 2. They destroyed the BNP. It's members defected to UKIP - a single issue right wing party. The reason being that the priority was EU bashing which was acceptable to the press and well known public figures were involved. This made being a right wing nationalist perfectly acceptable in Britain. A few people got beaten up and many more have been insulted, but there a large number of people can now publicly come out with their hatred for the "foreign" EU on social media - and many can have a dig at refugees, asylum seekers, Muslims and if it carries on, then add Jews and " queers " to the list of acceptable targets. Brexit has turned the clock back.

Even by your standards your last two posts are bizarre.

You’re sitting on a timebomb of a Far Right surge in Germany and mainland Europe and your response is to pretend that there’s a UKIP ‘hysteria’ that is in some way comparable.

When will you wake up to the fact that responsibility for the rising Fascist threat across the whole of mainland Europe has one common root cause:

Merkel’s open door policy to migrants.

 

[Sick Boy]

There is zero rise in nationalism in the U.K.

Yeah, right! Your views are much more in line with nationalists across Europe.

 

[Grendel]

Yeah, right! Your views are much more in line with nationalists across Europe.

There isn't - parties like the right wing we see in Germany and France would attract the same as the EDF

As for my views - I believe in freedom of expression, I believe in civil liberties and the rights of the individual, I believe in the democratic will of the majority.

Remind me what you believe in?

 

[martcov]

Even by your standards your last two posts are bizarre.

You’re sitting on a timebomb of a Far Right surge in Germany and mainland Europe and your response is to pretend that there’s a UKIP ‘hysteria’ that is in some way comparable.

When will you wake up to the fact that responsibility for the rising Fascist threat across the whole of mainland Europe has one common root cause:

Merkel’s open door policy to migrants.

If you read my posts you would see that I keep saying that - against the people who seem to think that it is solely the EU.

The UKIP is a temporary phenomenon and a convenient docking place for the UK extreme right - in the general anti foreigner ( as in EU foreigners) atmosphere and for the moment. As I also said, the U.K. Electoral system keeps our far right out.

And ... Merkel does not have an open door policy. Far from it. 2015 was an exception and Merkel has repeatedly said it won't happen again. The refugees will have to go back after the 3 year period or if the war ends. Some will undoubtedly stay. The AfD has not forgiven Merkel for betraying the "Volk". The AfD is pro Putin. Different to the present UK right.

 

[Sick Boy]

There isn't - parties like the right wing we see in Germany and France would attract the same as the EDF

As for my views - I believe in freedom of expression, I believe in civil liberties and the rights of the individual, I believe in the democratic will of the majority.

Remind me what you believe in?

In that case, if support for a second referendum continues to increase and returns a vote to remain in the EU, you won't complain?

 

[martcov]

There isn't - parties like the right wing we see in Germany and France would attract the same as the EDF

As for my views - I believe in freedom of expression, I believe in civil liberties and the rights of the individual, I believe in the democratic will of the majority.

Remind me what you believe in?

What about free movement? Protection of minorities? European Court of Human Rights? The majority in most, if not all, other EU countries want to remain - according to polls. Britain is in the minority. Britain only just voted no and there is a small majority in favour of remain in one recent poll. Do you think the rights of EU citizens in the U.K. Are better protected by May or by the EU negotiating stance? If the majority of the island of Ireland want to unite and remain together in the EU, will you support them?

 

[Sick Boy]

What about free movement? Protection of minorities? European Court of Human Rights? The majority in most, if not all, other EU countries want to remain - according to polls. Britain is in the minority. Britain only just voted no and there is a small majority in favour of remain in one recent poll. Do you think the rights of EU citizens in the U.K. Are better protected by May or by the EU negotiating stance? If the majority of the island of Ireland want to unite and remain together in the EU, will you support them?

Of course he would do, just like he would back Scotland to take back control.

 

[martcov]

There isn't - parties like the right wing we see in Germany and France would attract the same as the EDF

As for my views - I believe in freedom of expression, I believe in civil liberties and the rights of the individual, I believe in the democratic will of the majority.

Remind me what you believe in?

Actually, the AfD attracts people who hate Merkel like yourself. EDL and the like would be there at demonstrations, but people like yourself may well be discreetly putting their cross next to their candidates. Most AfD supporters are not violent yobs, but are angry citizens getting their own back on Merkel for letting the refugees in.

 

[martcov]

Of course he would do, just like he would back Scotland to take back control.

Yes, and being a great believer in freedom of expression, he would never dream of insulting people with a different view to himself.....

 

[fernandopartridge]

So the EU puts no money in? The plaque requirement seems normal to me.

The EU does not have any money. It cannot put any in. EU investment is funded essentially by taxpayers in those countries that are net contributors to the EU budget. It is not a difficult concept to grasp.
What benefit for the EU taxpayer is a plaque? What's it for if not political capital?


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