The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (5 Viewers)

[Astute]

Hahaha that post puts to bed any notion that you are neutral in all of this.

Yourself, Grendel and Sir E have consistently post pro-Brexit viewpoints, which have been challenged and debated.

In my own personal opinion you actually stifle any prospect of a meaningful debate on here.

Me stifle debate?

When I agree with the good parts of staying in the EU it gets ignored. But if I dare to say anything on the side of the UK......

 

[Sick Boy]

Me stifle debate?

When I agree with the good parts of staying in the EU it gets ignored. But if I dare to say anything on the side of the UK......

I don't see how being anti-Brexit makes someone anti-UK, I believe it will lead to substantial damage. If I was anti-UK in my view I'd be all for Brexit happening.

 

[Sick Boy]

I agree 100%.

The worse of it is even those who don't share the same religious beliefs are ruled by them. People suffer because if them.

The world would be a much better place without religion. Most wars are caused by them. So called peace loving religions murder people because of them.

And many people think I am the antichrist for not being religious in the slightest.

I agree with you but throughout the centuries all religions have caused suffering and the killing of innocent people, it's not just one religion. Then you have members of the same religions killing each other, including in the UK a few decades ago.

 

[Captain Dart]

Essentially though their religious beliefs dictate policy a lot more than it should do and helps keeps NI in the dark ages.

Dark ages is a bit strong, its more akin to Victorian morality.

For the Dark Ages try Saudi or Iran.

PS I'm an atheist & think religious belief is essentially crazy, though their might be some worthwhile moral guidance within all the mystical & evil stuff.

 

[Grappa]

Interesting stuff. From here (pdf)

 

[clint van damme]

Dark ages is a bit strong, its more akin to Victorian morality.

For the Dark Ages try Saudi or Iran.

PS I'm an atheist & think religious belief is essentially crazy, though their might be some worthwhile moral guidance within all the mystical & evil stuff.

I believe very strongly, (and I'm fairly sure it's provable), that a person can be moral without being religious. In fact, it's one of the biggest myths that some religious people peddle, that you need religion to be moral. (sorry to have gone off topic).

 

[Captain Dart]

I believe very strongly, (and I'm fairly sure it's provable), that a person can be moral without being religious. In fact, it's one of the biggest myths that some religious people peddle, that you need religion to be moral. (sorry to have gone off topic).

Well I agree, but it is also true to say that some people have trouble with morals whatever their beliefs.

 

[clint van damme]

Well I agree, but it is also true to say that some people have trouble with morals whatever their beliefs.

they do, and religion won't save them.

 

[skybluetony176]

Not missing anything. But as usual you make out as though I have.

You say freedom of speech should be protected. It shouldn't be attacked in any way. It shouldn't be watered down. And you make out that when we leave the EU it will be removed.

Then someone uses their freedom of speech. You attack what they say.

I am not saying you are wrong. I agree with what you say. Is that a first?

Yet I also agree with freedom of speech. People have the right to say what they want under most circumstances. This is the point you either don't get or pretend not to get.

You’re missing the point by such a margin you should be on a different thread altogether. Here’s a link to said thread 'Gay cake' appeal: Christian bakers Ashers lose appeal that’s what a nice guy I am.

 

[skybluetony176]

I don't see how being anti-Brexit makes someone anti-UK, I believe it will lead to substantial damage. If I was anti-UK in my view I'd be all for Brexit happening.

Exactly. Using that same logic of astute all leave voters must be racist.

Just the recent pant wetting over an invite to the TPP. Because I’m pro British I see it as an insult. It’s Japan saying we’re not worthy of the individual trade deal that we apparently voted leave to get. If that’s the case brexit voters should be the most outraged by the invite, especially the we knew what we voted for lot who are in uproar at any suggestion of any type of customs union with the EU. In terms of the difference between a customs union and a clean break from a customs union the TPP is a damn site nearer to being in a customs union than not being in a customs union because of all the conditions of membership of the TPP. It would be laughable if it wasn’t so serious and people desperate for brexit at any cost are being hoodwinked.

 

[skybluetony176]

Dark ages is a bit strong, its more akin to Victorian morality.

For the Dark Ages try Saudi or Iran.

PS I'm an atheist & think religious belief is essentially crazy, though their might be some worthwhile moral guidance within all the mystical & evil stuff.

Trust me. It’s dark ages. Aside from all the backward thinking laws that doesn’t put it on an equal footing with the rest of the U.K. it also has issues with it’s own private “people’s” courts that dish out honour beatings and knee cappings etc. This practice crosses the sectarian divide as well so you can’t even point the finger at one group and not the other.

 

[Captain Dart]

Trust me. It’s dark ages. Aside from all the backward thinking laws that doesn’t put it on an equal footing with the rest of the U.K. it also has issues with it’s own private “people’s” courts that dish out honour beatings and knee cappings etc. This practice crosses the sectarian divide as well so you can’t even point the finger at one group and not the other.

I don't think you sound terribly knowledgeable on history.

 

[skybluetony176]

I don't think you sound terribly knowledgeable on history.

Really? Why’s that?

 

[Sick Boy]

It will be interesting to see whether or not May survives in the coming months and how she is going to navigate this.

At the moment I can see the UK effectively remaining in the Customs Union for the foreseeable future. The fact Liam Fox seemed to believe leaving the EU would be straightforward and that they would be the easiest negotiations ever, show just how unsuitable he is for his position.

 

[Sick Boy]

I have said everything wrong should be looked into and if anything is wrong actions should be taken. That is actions and not just words. And that is everywhere and not just where you choose it to happen.

I have never tried defending anyone or any organisations. This includes political parties. I am a lifelong Labour voter. This doesn't mean that I should defend them in any way. And I don't. Never will either.

The reason I keep mentioning Selmayr is because of how much he and the EU get defended on here. Like it wasn't illegal so it is OK for him to stay. It was a sham but it is OK for him to stay. Rules and regulations were broke to put him in place but he should keep the position he shouldn't have got.

But if someone in the UK has done anything wrong the book should be thrown at them.

Impartial?

Yet the likes of Liam Fox seem to have escaped your criticism?

 

[SkyblueBazza]

there is, but isn't it funny how they can ignore legislation put in place on the mainland when it suits.

Only when the power devolved allows them to. They cannot adopt the Euro, declare war, or have their own income tax...that many of us dislike is the rough ebd of what was agreed ultimately

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[skybluetony176]

Only when the power devolved allows them to. They cannot adopt the Euro, declare war, or have their own income tax...that many of us dislike is the rough ebd of what was agreed ultimately

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The Euro is widely accepted as currency in Northern Ireland already. Especially around the border.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

I believe very strongly, (and I'm fairly sure it's provable), that a person can be moral without being religious. In fact, it's one of the biggest myths that some religious people peddle, that you need religion to be moral. (sorry to have gone off topic).

It is a simple choice for me. There is the right of every individual to choose, & exercise their rights of freedom to do as they please...as long as it is done with respect for others' rights to do the same.

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[SkyblueBazza]

The Euro is widely accepted as currency in Northern Ireland already. Especially around the border.

The euro is not their currency.

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[Ashdown]

I think it's all sorting itself out now isn't it ? The Pound is gaining some strength again. I reckon a couple of big Euro governments have told the EU bods to get it done now for the sake of everyone. There are bigger things to worry about if you ask me like the US stand off with the Chinese and the Chinese military conducting training exercises with the Russians for starters.

 

[Astute]

I don't see how being anti-Brexit makes someone anti-UK, I believe it will lead to substantial damage. If I was anti-UK in my view I'd be all for Brexit happening.

It isn't the anti Brexit. I don't blame anyone for being anti Brexit. It has been a fuck up from start to finish. It shouldn't even be happening.

People voted UKIP. The Tories were losing votes to it. Cameron offered a referendum if he got back in. He lied when he said we were in talks with the EU about changing policies in our benefit. Juncker spoke immediately saying we were not in talks and there would never be talks. Put it all together and you got the leave vote.

What gets me is every bit of news that could be seen as it might have a benefit to the UK after leaving becomes a shitfest. That pissed me off.

It looks like we are leaving. We need positivity. We need a plan. What we have is several plans that are no good to anyone. We need those involved to get around a table. Lock them in a room until things get resolved.

It is the future of everyone that is at stake. Yet lots of them just see it as a way of extending their political futures. But untold millions throughout the EU depend on a good conclusion for all. They need to know where they will be living or able to live. What rights do their children have? Will they still have a job.


But no. Those in charge don't seem to give a shit about us. The Tories who wanted us to stay in are taking us out. Labour, who wanted to take us out now want us to stay in because it is the opposite of what the Tories are doing. So neither side are giving their all for what they say they want or are doing. Then you have them dealing with the EU who say they want to come to an amicable deal. But they don't as they don't want us to leave. It is worth too much money that we give them each year and also how much trade they get from us.

So in short nobody wants what they say. And we wonder why it is going so badly.

 

[Sick Boy]

It isn't the anti Brexit. I don't blame anyone for being anti Brexit. It has been a fuck up from start to finish. It shouldn't even be happening.

People voted UKIP. The Tories were losing votes to it. Cameron offered a referendum if he got back in. He lied when he said we were in talks with the EU about changing policies in our benefit. Juncker spoke immediately saying we were not in talks and there would never be talks. Put it all together and you got the leave vote.

What gets me is every bit of news that could be seen as it might have a benefit to the UK after leaving becomes a shitfest. That pissed me off.

It looks like we are leaving. We need positivity. We need a plan. What we have is several plans that are no good to anyone. We need those involved to get around a table. Lock them in a room until things get resolved.

It is the future of everyone that is at stake. Yet lots of them just see it as a way of extending their political futures. But untold millions throughout the EU depend on a good conclusion for all. They need to know where they will be living or able to live. What rights do their children have? Will they still have a job.


But no. Those in charge don't seem to give a shit about us. The Tories who wanted us to stay in are taking us out. Labour, who wanted to take us out now want us to stay in because it is the opposite of what the Tories are doing. So neither side are giving their all for what they say they want or are doing. Then you have them dealing with the EU who say they want to come to an amicable deal. But they don't as they don't want us to leave. It is worth too much money that we give them each year and also how much trade they get from us.

So in short nobody wants what they say. And we wonder why it is going so badly.

Apart from these, of couree

Arrgh will fix link later

 

[Sick Boy]

I think it's all sorting itself out now isn't it ? The Pound is gaining some strength again. I reckon a couple of big Euro governments have told the EU bods to get it done now for the sake of everyone. There are bigger things to worry about if you ask me like the US stand off with the Chinese and the Chinese military conducting training exercises with the Russians for starters.

Or May's going to make more inevitable concessions. I expect the UK will remain in a customs union for an unspecified time

 

[Astute]

I believe very strongly, (and I'm fairly sure it's provable), that a person can be moral without being religious. In fact, it's one of the biggest myths that some religious people peddle, that you need religion to be moral. (sorry to have gone off topic).

It isn't off topic though.

Some of the worse offenders in the UK are high up in their religion. Then you have the Irish thing. They are a part of the Brexit destination but let their religious thoughts show contradictions.

 

[Astute]

You’re missing the point by such a margin you should be on a different thread altogether. Here’s a link to said thread 'Gay cake' appeal: Christian bakers Ashers lose appeal that’s what a nice guy I am.

Would you like to explain how I am missing the point?

 

[Ashdown]

Nah, chill out it's all cool and coming together. Not sure it will have been worth all the fuss though as I can't see there being any real significant changes. We are all doomed though, all the hot air over Brexit is obviously warming up the planet !

 

[Astute]

Trust me. It’s dark ages. Aside from all the backward thinking laws that doesn’t put it on an equal footing with the rest of the U.K. it also has issues with it’s own private “people’s” courts that dish out honour beatings and knee cappings etc. This practice crosses the sectarian divide as well so you can’t even point the finger at one group and not the other.

Ah so you do get my point.

 

[Astute]

Yet the likes of Liam Fox seem to have escaped your criticism?

No he hasn't.

So what part of anyone or any organisation who has done wrong needs looking into and problem resolved/reversed/prosecuted don't you understand?

Or would you like to point out where I have defended him in the slightest?

 

[Astute]

Or May's going to make more inevitable concessions. I expect the UK will remain in a customs union for an unspecified time

That is a certainty.

We are not ready to leave. Different factions have made sure of it. They need us. We need them.

I can see it continuing for years.

 

[martcov]

I have said everything wrong should be looked into and if anything is wrong actions should be taken. That is actions and not just words. And that is everywhere and not just where you choose it to happen.

I have never tried defending anyone or any organisations. This includes political parties. I am a lifelong Labour voter. This doesn't mean that I should defend them in any way. And I don't. Never will either.

The reason I keep mentioning Selmayr is because of how much he and the EU get defended on here. Like it wasn't illegal so it is OK for him to stay. It was a sham but it is OK for him to stay. Rules and regulations were broke to put him in place but he should keep the position he shouldn't have got.

But if someone in the UK has done anything wrong the book should be thrown at them.

Impartial?

Who is defending Selmayr? I posted the argument of the EC, and asked what happened in the end. There a couple of versions out there and I thought you claimed to know what happened. You just said it happened.

 

[martcov]

No he hasn't.

So what part of anyone or any organisation who has done wrong needs looking into and problem resolved/reversed/prosecuted don't you understand?

Or would you like to point out where I have defended him in the slightest?

You just never took any interest in it. A far more important appointment for the UK as we are leaving the EU.

 

[martcov]

That is a certainty.

We are not ready to leave. Different factions have made sure of it. They need us. We need them.

I can see it continuing for years.

We are not ready to leave because there was no plan on the table of what to do when we leave. There still isn’t a workable plan on the table. We should not have a referendum on this basis. It is a joke.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

Or May's going to make more inevitable concessions. I expect the UK will remain in a customs union for an unspecified time

Both sides have & will make further concessions. That is the nature of the task in hand

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[skybluetony176]

Would you like to explain how I am missing the point?

Again? No thanks. Me and Clint have explained why to you at least twice each already. You’ve deflected enough. I won’t be entertaining you on that any further.

 

[Sick Boy]

That is a certainty.

We are not ready to leave. Different factions have made sure of it. They need us. We need them.

I can see it continuing for years.

The factions making sure of it are mostly within the UK and May's own red lines - she has boxed herself into a corner that I don't think she will be able to get out of.

I was mocked on here before by leavers for claiming it would take at least a decade for the UK to fully leave