The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (21 Viewers)

As of right now, how are thinking of voting? In or out

  • Remain

    Votes: 23 37.1%
  • Leave

    Votes: 35 56.5%
  • Undecided

    Votes: 3 4.8%
  • Not registered or not intention to vote

    Votes: 1 1.6%

  • Total voters
    62
  • Poll closed .

Earlsdon_Skyblue1

Well-Known Member
For what it's worth, I reckon that the UK is going to end up 'doing a Norway', we will still have technically left the EU and delivered on the referendum question.

The government has backed down on so many issues and this will be the final one.

Watch this space ;)

The only reason we couldn't pull off a 'Norway' is because we are leaving as opposed to not being a part of it and therefore you have the bitterness there.

It would be an entirely possible outcome if the people at the top across all parties behave like adults.
 

martcov

Well-Known Member
The only reason we couldn't pull off a 'Norway' is because we are leaving as opposed to not being a part of it and therefore you have the bitterness there.

It would be an entirely possible outcome if the people at the top across all parties behave like adults.

They have free movement and 17,4 million voted against that, which makes it not possible without people jumping up and down.
 

Sick Boy

Well-Known Member
The only reason we couldn't pull off a 'Norway' is because we are leaving as opposed to not being a part of it and therefore you have the bitterness there.

It would be an entirely possible outcome if the people at the top across all parties behave like adults.

I reckon it is going to end up being the most likely outcome and something of a compromise, quiet possibly with some sort of brake on migration for say 5 years.
 

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
The only reason we couldn't pull off a 'Norway' is because we are leaving as opposed to not being a part of it and therefore you have the bitterness there.

It would be an entirely possible outcome if the people at the top across all parties behave like adults.

I'm not sure what doing a Norway means. It has rejected joining the EU twice with bigger victory margins than Brexit. Polls indicate that if they had another referendum the no vote would rise to over 70% so in my book that makes it an anti EU country.
If we replicate their model we will be replicating the model of a country more anti EU than the UK.
 

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
At the moment most of the downsides of Brexit are still predictions rather than fact.
Where are the corresponding upsides of remaining?
What's the benefit in the long term for the UK? You can see by the behaviour of Juncker, Tusk et al that they do not care for the population of the UK, you and I are apparently EU citizens but the spirit of negotiations appear to care little about that but more about minimising loss of face for the EU.
I'm reading Dennis Skinner's autobiography at the minute, he's got it right about the EU, a capitalist club made to benefit large corporations that the Tories led us into.
I'd still vote to leave if there was a second referendum. Leaving is not the real issue here, the big issue is what our government does to manage any downside.
 

martcov

Well-Known Member
At the moment most of the downsides of Brexit are still predictions rather than fact.
Where are the corresponding upsides of remaining?
What's the benefit in the long term for the UK? You can see by the behaviour of Juncker, Tusk et al that they do not care for the population of the UK, you and I are apparently EU citizens but the spirit of negotiations appear to care little about that but more about minimising loss of face for the EU.
I'm reading Dennis Skinner's autobiography at the minute, he's got it right about the EU, a capitalist club made to benefit large corporations that the Tories led us into.
I'd still vote to leave if there was a second referendum. Leaving is not the real issue here, the big issue is what our government does to manage any downside.

Tusk and Juncker and the EU care about EU citizens. The UK is leaving and as from then, UK citizens do not have the same priority for them.

If the EU is a capitalist club, what does that make the UK?

The EU protects things like guaranteed paid holidays, equality and has anti discrimination rules and working hours rules as well as environmental directives etc..

Voting is done on PR, or in the Council on PR with weighting to ensure that a couple of smaller population countries cannot force things disproportionately on others.

The EU is not allowed to reduce people‘s rights.

Maybe Corbyn‘s labour could create something less capitalist. Maybe.

What is certain, is that billionaires and millionaires are behind the media and anti EU campaigning/ targeting. I doubt whether the likes of Rees Mogg or Trump fan, Farage, are creating a socialist paradise to replace the EU or are there for the poor and just about managing. They may have fed them promises and lied to them, but I would not place their vision of Brexit Britain as less capitalist than the EU as things stand.
 

martcov

Well-Known Member
I'm not sure what doing a Norway means. It has rejected joining the EU twice with bigger victory margins than Brexit. Polls indicate that if they had another referendum the no vote would rise to over 70% so in my book that makes it an anti EU country.
If we replicate their model we will be replicating the model of a country more anti EU than the UK.

Their model is a small population with loads of oil. Instead of blowing the oil money, they have invested it.

With oil, which they can sell to anyone without needing to be in a trading bloc, a high income per capital, and having a liberal social system, they have no need to be in the EU. But they do need some immigrants and allow free movement through their agreement with the EU.

Our model is not working because of the distribution of wealth and a government which has been unable or unwilling, to get affordable housing built, to tackle the increase in the gig economy and zero hour contracts, to deal with the increasing elderly population‘s effect on the NHS and to create a public works project to improve infrastructure.

Our so-called representatives of the poor, but „decent ordinary folk“, have blamed the EU and our government is involved with the , seemingly, at best time consuming, and at worst, potentially damaging project of Brexit. Will the „folk“ be better off, and will the UK replace the Dennis Skinner described „capitalist club“ of the EU with a less capitalist club after Brexit? Based on the show so far, not a chance.
 

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
At the moment most of the downsides of Brexit are still predictions rather than fact.
Where are the corresponding upsides of remaining?
What's the benefit in the long term for the UK? You can see by the behaviour of Juncker, Tusk et al that they do not care for the population of the UK, you and I are apparently EU citizens but the spirit of negotiations appear to care little about that but more about minimising loss of face for the EU.
I'm reading Dennis Skinner's autobiography at the minute, he's got it right about the EU, a capitalist club made to benefit large corporations that the Tories led us into.
I'd still vote to leave if there was a second referendum. Leaving is not the real issue here, the big issue is what our government does to manage any downside.

it is my firm believe that we will become an even more out of control capitalist club ripe for plundering by the top 1% and their corporate mates including those who we've managed to keep at bay so far like the American medical insurance giants.

You've hit the nail on the head with the last sentence, but I have no confidence in them. I don't have any faith in the British electorate to seek an alternative either, they seem oblivious to the effects of austerity and the stuttering economy.
 

SkyblueBazza

Well-Known Member
The EU protects things like guaranteed paid holidays, equality and has anti discrimination rules and working hours rules as well as environmental directives etc..

Meanwhile in the UK where we do still lead the way on some of these things - even if we have had to pick up the baton from others initially - adverse tinkering with any of such things will not win votes so stop with your scare stories.

As for UK citizens no longer being a priority for the EU moving forward...you seem to strongly advocate EU citizens being a priority for the UK.

Your attitude does seem to fit perfectly with the EU. I would tear up my UK passport & never set foot on UK soil again if I were you.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
 

SkyblueBazza

Well-Known Member
I don't have any faith in the British electorate to seek an alternative either, they seem oblivious to the effects of austerity and the stuttering economy.

That is as patronising & offensive as the Remain group saying voting Brexit was racist & ill-informed. Maybe turn it around & look at yourself. Maybe the majority (under the electoral system we have in situe) vote are actually better informed, more knowledgeable etc than you? I really don't know...but it is what it is!

Fact is this apparently oblivious mass are there to have thier buttons pressed. Get the right arguments in place & thier attitudes & voting will change.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
 

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
That is as patronising & offensive as the Remain group saying voting Brexit was racist & ill-informed. Maybe turn it around & look at yourself. Maybe the majority (under the electoral system we have in situe) vote are actually better informed, more knowledgeable etc than you? I really don't know...but it is what it is!

Fact is this apparently oblivious mass are there to have thier buttons pressed. Get the right arguments in place & thier attitudes & voting will change.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

it's true. You can deny it all you like. Perhaps should have said large parts of the British electorate but it still stands.
I'm sure the penny will drop eventually, (or things will improve, but I can't see it), but I don't know how long that will take.
I can accept Corbyn is not the answer for a lot of people but the apathy towards this current government is mind boggling. In this regard Brexit is a side issue because they'll pursue their agenda regardless.
 

martcov

Well-Known Member
That is as patronising & offensive as the Remain group saying voting Brexit was racist & ill-informed. Maybe turn it around & look at yourself. Maybe the majority (under the electoral system we have in situe) vote are actually better informed, more knowledgeable etc than you? I really don't know...but it is what it is!

Fact is this apparently oblivious mass are there to have thier buttons pressed. Get the right arguments in place & thier attitudes & voting will change.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

Of course they were ill informed. That is not patronising. David Davis was also ill informed and he is charge of Brexit. It is not the electorate‘s fault. They have been played by a few millionaires and billionaires who control a large portion of the press. Add to that CA who have explained in detail how easy it is to press the „buttons“ of the masses through social media, then you can clearly see that the majority were 1. ill informed, 2. deliberately missled. Ask yourself, by whom? And why? It certainly wasn’t because the EU is a better capitalist club. More like the UK on it’s own is easier to control from a capitalist point of view. The current campaign against Corbyn being an example of ruthless character assasination just before the local elections. Easier than doing it 28 times in 28 different countries. If the Tories aren’t smashed now, the UK can only be even more at the mercy of the few super rich.
 

martcov

Well-Known Member
Meanwhile in the UK where we do still lead the way on some of these things - even if we have had to pick up the baton from others initially - adverse tinkering with any of such things will not win votes so stop with your scare stories.

As for UK citizens no longer being a priority for the EU moving forward...you seem to strongly advocate EU citizens being a priority for the UK.

Your attitude does seem to fit perfectly with the EU. I would tear up my UK passport & never set foot on UK soil again if I were you.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

It does fit in with the EU, as both I and the EU advocate that no one, British or EU, should lose any of their existing rights. That is a major difference between Leavers and remainers.

As regards human rights. What does the UK guarantee above that of the EU? Or worker’s rights? How will the poor and JAMs be better off?
 

martcov

Well-Known Member
Very patriotic of you.

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The UK is the problem, not me. The UK passport is now worth less than an EU one. Even if it is blue. The only way post Brexit to guarantee me unlimited residency and work rights in the EU,is to have an EU passport. Nothing to do with patriotism.
 

SkyblueBazza

Well-Known Member
it's true. You can deny it all you like. Perhaps should have said large parts of the British electorate but it still stands.
I'm sure the penny will drop eventually, (or things will improve, but I can't see it), but I don't know how long that will take.
I can accept Corbyn is not the answer for a lot of people but the apathy towards this current government is mind boggling. In this regard Brexit is a side issue because they'll pursue their agenda regardless.
Denying nothing. Like you suggest, people will reach a point of discontent & vote against the party that does the most harm to their interests

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SkyblueBazza

Well-Known Member
The UK is the problem, not me. The UK passport is now worth less than an EU one. Even if it is blue. The only way post Brexit to guarantee me unlimited residency and work rights in the EU,is to have an EU passport. Nothing to do with patriotism.
I think you will find large swathes of the world where a British Passport receives a much warmer welcome than an EU one. But you will be manipulating things to suit yourself so it doesn't matter to you anyway.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
 

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
Tusk and Juncker and the EU care about EU citizens. The UK is leaving and as from then, UK citizens do not have the same priority for them.

If the EU is a capitalist club, what does that make the UK?

The EU protects things like guaranteed paid holidays, equality and has anti discrimination rules and working hours rules as well as environmental directives etc..

Voting is done on PR, or in the Council on PR with weighting to ensure that a couple of smaller population countries cannot force things disproportionately on others.

The EU is not allowed to reduce people‘s rights.

Maybe Corbyn‘s labour could create something less capitalist. Maybe.

What is certain, is that billionaires and millionaires are behind the media and anti EU campaigning/ targeting. I doubt whether the likes of Rees Mogg or Trump fan, Farage, are creating a socialist paradise to replace the EU or are there for the poor and just about managing. They may have fed them promises and lied to them, but I would not place their vision of Brexit Britain as less capitalist than the EU as things stand.
It's pretty simple. If we don't like the capitalist club government we have we can elect a different one. We do not have such an option with the EU.
 

martcov

Well-Known Member
It's pretty simple. If we don't like the capitalist club government we have we can elect a different one. We do not have such an option with the EU.

The population of the EU could elect different MEPs. The EU heads of states could be socialist if the demand were there. We can still elect socialists if we want to.
 

martcov

Well-Known Member
I think you will find large swathes of the world where a British Passport receives a much warmer welcome than an EU one. But you will be manipulating things to suit yourself so it doesn't matter to you anyway.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

Give me an example of a swathe...
 

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
The population of the EU could elect different MEPs. The EU heads of states could be socialist if the demand were there. We can still elect socialists if we want to.
You just don't get it do you? The principles of the EU do not allow for anything different. Making life easy for multinational corporations is its raison d'etre.
No matter which MEPs are elected, they're working within the confines of the various EU treaties.
 

martcov

Well-Known Member
You just don't get it do you? The principles of the EU do not allow for anything different. Making life easy for multinational corporations is its raison d'etre.
No matter which MEPs are elected, they're working within the confines of the various EU treaties.

I do get it. And I am ok with it. The EU is a trading bloc. We are not allowed state subsidies unless under certain conditions. That stops a race to the bottom of countries bailing out lame ducks with other people‘s money and thereby undercutting other people’s jobs. What I am not ok with is the way our country is being run. I am not a socialist, but I cannot stand seeing poverty, lack of housing and lack of funding in the NHS. The German model is called „soziale Marktwirtschaft‘. Which is a consensus that you can be a capitalist, but the money from profit taxation has to be used in a fair social way. Completely different to, say, Trumpian economics. The EU is not US style capitalism and not the EUSSR. It’s somewhere in the middle, but gets attacked from left and right wing Brexiteers anyway.
 

martcov

Well-Known Member
I think you will find large swathes of the world where a British Passport receives a much warmer welcome than an EU one. But you will be manipulating things to suit yourself so it doesn't matter to you anyway.

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Apparently, even the Mail admits that, the passport with access to the most countries is the German one. The British one is set to lose ground after Brexit.

As you say, having German and British is the best bet.

The most powerful passports are listed as Brexit threatens to restrict travel in the EU | Daily Mail Online
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
Apparently, even the Mail admits that, the passport with access to the most countries is the German one. The British one is set to lose ground after Brexit.

As you say, having German and British is the best bet.

The most powerful passports are listed as Brexit threatens to restrict travel in the EU | Daily Mail Online

Why will Britain lose ground after Brexit? I’d like yiu to explain that as I know the criteria it’s based on - by the way one other country is equal to Germany and one rating considers it greater.
 

martcov

Well-Known Member
Why will Britain lose ground after Brexit? I’d like yiu to explain that as I know the criteria it’s based on - by the way one other country is equal to Germany and one rating considers it greater.

Ask the Daily Mail. They claim that, but it will lose the automatic right to live and work in 27 countries in one hit. Are you saying that one country is equal top? Top is top. One Rating considers the other one greater. Whatever. There certainly are not large swathes of the planet preferring the British one as was claimed. I hope to get the German one in a couple of months, assuming I pass the anti terrorism and anti criminal checks. So, I'm covered anyway.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
Ask the Daily Mail. They claim that, but it will lose the automatic right to live and work in 27 countries in one hit. Are you saying that one country is equal top? Top is top. One Rating considers the other one greater. Whatever. There certainly are not large swathes of the planet preferring the British one as was claimed. I hope to get the German one in a couple of months, assuming I pass the anti terrorism and anti criminal checks. So, I'm covered anyway.

We are third with a bunch of EU countries and if they impose restrictions so will we (none will) so it’s a pathetic statement.

I’ve been to Russia and got through passport control quicker than the shambles that is Charles De Gaulle you clueless crank.
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
You just don't get it do you? The principles of the EU do not allow for anything different. Making life easy for multinational corporations is its raison d'etre.
No matter which MEPs are elected, they're working within the confines of the various EU treaties.

Well yeah, that’s the nature of a free trade area. It also makes its citizens richer than the alternative and is more effective at tackling things like climate change and tax avoidance than a groupnof atomised competitive nations.

You could argue the same about MPs being bound by treaties, were still members of the WTO, NATO, etc. It’s basic social contract stuff, trade a little agency for a little safety and prosperity.
 

martcov

Well-Known Member
We are third with a bunch of EU countries and if they impose restrictions so will we (none will) so it’s a pathetic statement.

I’ve been to Russia and got through passport control quicker than the shambles that is Charles De Gaulle you clueless crank.

One anecdote doesn’t mean that Travelling to Russia is easier than traveling, say, within the Schengen area. You are hardly in a position to call anybody a clueless crank.
 

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
Well yeah, that’s the nature of a free trade area. It also makes its citizens richer than the alternative and is more effective at tackling things like climate change and tax avoidance than a groupnof atomised competitive nations.

You could argue the same about MPs being bound by treaties, were still members of the WTO, NATO, etc. It’s basic social contract stuff, trade a little agency for a little safety and prosperity.
Tax avoidance? What about Luxembourg or even closer to home Jersey? Who was the president of Luxembourg whilst blatant tax avoidance was ongoing?
 

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