The EU: In, out, shake it all about....

As of right now, how are thinking of voting? In or out

  • Remain

    Votes: 23 37.1%
  • Leave

    Votes: 35 56.5%
  • Undecided

    Votes: 3 4.8%
  • Not registered or not intention to vote

    Votes: 1 1.6%

  • Total voters
    62
  • Poll closed .

chiefdave

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So far today government ministers have claimed Johnson never said there was an oven ready deal and blamed the inability of the government to do the 'easiest deal in history' on the Labour Party, who haven't been in power for 10 years, and remainers, who were constantly told anything they flagged as a potential issue was project fear.

A sure sign the talks are going well.
 
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skybluetony176

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So far today government ministers have claimed Johnson never said there was an oven ready deal and blamed the inability of the government to do the 'easiest deal in history' on the Labour Party, who haven't been in power for 10 years, and remainers, who were constantly told anything they flagged as a potential issue was project fear.

A sure sign the talks are going well.
BMW are coming to bail out Brexit any minute now. You just need to stop being negative first.
 

skybluetony176

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Sunlit uplands, German car manufacturers etc
Another Brexit c**t along with Dyson and Bamford who are doing their own version of Brexit with British jobs having promoted Brexit. Don’t even get me started with the pricks who own Witherspoons and Timpsons, just an angry pair of gammon faced little Englanders who have failed to realise that it not 1950. At least the brexiteer who runs Iceland’s understands the word compromise and we never held all the fictional cards.
 

skybluetony176

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Gove doing the BS rounds on TV this morning. Apparently there isn’t a border in the Irish Sea between the U.K. mainland and Northern Ireland. We had some Brexit training in the week on shipping to the EU including the South of Ireland and shipping to Northern Ireland. Deal or no deal it is simpler and easier next year to ship to the South than it is the North. Not only is there a border in the Irish Sea it’s a stronger border to get goods to a different part of the U.K. than it is the EU.
 

CCFCSteve

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Gove doing the BS rounds on TV this morning. Apparently there isn’t a border in the Irish Sea between the U.K. mainland and Northern Ireland. We had some Brexit training in the week on shipping to the EU including the South of Ireland and shipping to Northern Ireland. Deal or no deal it is simpler and easier next year to ship to the South than it is the North. Not only is there a border in the Irish Sea it’s a stronger border to get goods to a different part of the U.K. than it is the EU.
I wasn’t aware any details have been published yet as NI agreement was only reached yesterday ? Will be interesting to see what was agreed as it’s a fine balancing act between protecting NI business, keeping EU and Unionists both happy and obviously minimising issues/perceived issues in relation to GFA.

ps personal view is even if trade agreement is reached in principle this week or if no deal, have a three month period for EU/UK businesses to get everything (new docs etc) in place. Won’t solve all future issues but will allow companies to act on what the actual final position is rather than guessing what it might be.
 

NorthernWisdom

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Apr 23, 2013
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Another Brexit c**t along with Dyson and Bamford who are doing their own version of Brexit with British jobs having promoted Brexit. Don’t even get me started with the pricks who own Witherspoons and Timpsons, just an angry pair of gammon faced little Englanders who have failed to realise that it not 1950. At least the brexiteer who runs Iceland’s understands the word compromise and we never held all the fictional cards.
I don't disagree with you in a general point. Timpson's are, as they go, relatively good employers, however.
 
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skybluetony176

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I wasn’t aware any details have been published yet as NI agreement was only reached yesterday ? Will be interesting to see what was agreed as it’s a fine balancing act between protecting NI business, keeping EU and Unionists both happy and obviously minimising issues/perceived issues in relation to GFA.

ps personal view is even if trade agreement is reached in principle this week or if no deal, have a three month period for EU/UK businesses to get everything (new docs etc) in place. Won’t solve all future issues but will allow companies to act on what the actual final position is rather than guessing what it might be.
Shipping to the EU is relatively straight forward paperwork wise and a system is already in place as it’s basically the system we already use with the rest of the world outside the EU, it’s a single declaration that a freight forwarder will do for anyone for anything from £25 up to £75 being the highest we’ve been quoted. The border between mainland U.K. and Northern Ireland U.K. is actually a harder border, you still need a single declaration but you also need a line by line declaration of any and all goods on your packing lists and invoices. You have to do the latter as the shipper, your freight forwarder can’t do it on your behalf. The agreement yesterday was for goods traveling between Southern Ireland and Northern Ireland. Details are still sketchy (standard) but we’ve been told by our freight forwarder that it only covers goods invoiced on the Island of Ireland and crossing the land border between North and South so even if you shipped from the mainland U.K. to the south and it went by road to the north you still have to do the extra line by line declaration.

Basically the U.K. is having 2 different Brexits depending on which country you are and NI’s Brexit isn’t as hard as the rest of the U.K.’s Brexit hence the U.K. border with the U.K. is harder than the border with the rest of the world. Deal or no deal.
 
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shmmeee

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I wasn’t aware any details have been published yet as NI agreement was only reached yesterday ? Will be interesting to see what was agreed as it’s a fine balancing act between protecting NI business, keeping EU and Unionists both happy and obviously minimising issues/perceived issues in relation to GFA.

ps personal view is even if trade agreement is reached in principle this week or if no deal, have a three month period for EU/UK businesses to get everything (new docs etc) in place. Won’t solve all future issues but will allow companies to act on what the actual final position is rather than guessing what it might be.
Weve just had a 12 month transitional period which we’ve wasted playing stupid political games about fish.
 

skybluetony176

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I don't disagree with you in a general point. Timpson's are, as they go, relatively good employers, however.
I understand that they do some good work in the community, especially with ex service men which I applaud. Still think the owner is a cock though.
 

skybluetony176

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Weve just had a 12 month transitional period which we’ve wasted playing stupid political games about fish.
It’s worse than that. The data base that shippers need to access to move goods to the EU isn’t even going live until the 23rd of this month having missed several promised dates to go live so shippers can familiarise themselves with it ahead of January. It’s simply not ready and that’s why it’s missed every date. We also don’t have enough customs officers so January is going to be a disaster. Again, deal or no deal. It’s not that we’ve only wasted the transition period, we’re talking about things that were always going to happen from the morning of the 24th of June 2016. We’ve wasted 4 and a half years on the basics.
 
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CCFCSteve

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Weve just had a 12 month transitional period which we’ve wasted playing stupid political games about fish.
Not really us playing games is it ?! Coastal waters around the UK are ours to do with what we wish From 1 Jan, on no deal Europeans can’t fish in them at all, France and a few others wanted same/pretty much access to UK waters as before. We’ve refused and want to do annual quotas. I could bore you all again with a balancing view on such matters but views are so entrenched there’s no real point. But at least consider whether some of the requests by the EU or nationals are fair/reasonable...some are, some aren’t.

I personally believe the fish argument is crazy in the grand scheme of things (and is separate to trade agreement/tariffs) but Macron has got reelection in 18 months so wants to appear tough and protecting French fishing industries, Johnson is under pressure from ERG, who see any compromise on such matters as some kind of betrayal of Brexit (idiotic on both counts)

ps in any event my point was that how do you ‘transition’ when you don’t know the final trade agreement and what/whether tariffs will be applied ?! This is why the structure of the talks have never worked. The trade and withdrawal agreements should’ve been negotiated concurrently, with transition to follow
 

CCFCSteve

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Shipping to the EU is relatively straight forward paperwork wise and a system is already in place as it’s basically the system we already use with the rest of the world outside the EU, it’s a single declaration that a freight forwarder will do for anyone for anything from £25 up to £75 being the highest we’ve been quoted. The border between mainland U.K. and Northern Ireland U.K. is actually a harder border, you still need a single declaration but you also need a line by line declaration of any and all goods on your packing lists and invoices. You have to do the latter as the shipper, your freight forwarder can’t do it on your behalf. The agreement yesterday was for goods traveling between Southern Ireland and Northern Ireland. Details are still sketchy (standard) but we’ve been told by our freight forwarder that it only covers goods invoiced on the Island of Ireland and crossing the land border between North and South so even if you shipped from the mainland U.K. to the south and it went by road to the north you still have to do the extra line by line declaration.

Basically the U.K. is having 2 different Brexits depending on which country you are and NI’s Brexit isn’t as hard as the rest of the U.K.’s Brexit hence the U.K. border with the U.K. is harder than the border with the rest of the world. Deal or no deal.
Agreed, it does appear different types of Brexit and no realistic alternative with GFA. Will see what NI business says once people in the know have properly reviewed the details (DUP/ERG won’t be happy but as I say what’s the the realistic alternative based on EU/UK positions on Brexit)

If the solution helps to maintain GFA and works for NI (majority of people and business), I’ll take it
 

shmmeee

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Not really us playing games is it ?! Coastal waters around the UK are ours to do with what we wish From 1 Jan, on no deal Europeans can’t fish in them at all, France and a few others wanted same/pretty much access to UK waters as before. We’ve refused and want to do annual quotas. I could bore you all again with a balancing view on such matters but views are so entrenched there’s no real point. But at least consider whether some of the requests by the EU or nationals are fair/reasonable...some are, some aren’t.

I personally believe the fish argument is crazy in the grand scheme of things (and is separate to trade agreement/tariffs) but Macron has got reelection in 18 months so wants to appear tough and protecting French fishing industries, Johnson is under pressure from ERG, who see any compromise on such matters as some kind of betrayal of Brexit (idiotic on both counts)

ps in any event my point was that how do you ‘transition’ when you don’t know the final trade agreement and what/whether tariffs will be applied ?! This is why the structure of the talks have never worked. The trade and withdrawal agreements should’ve been negotiated concurrently, with transition to follow
You couldn’t negotiate both at the same time, but this whole deadline is entirely self imposed. The only reason we aren’t extending it is because Brexit voters would get upset. That’s it. And we’ve been told for ages a deal will come at the last minute because that’s the best way to negotiate, so whatever deadline was set according to the government this was always the plan.

This whole thing is ludicrous Steve. Of course other countries have their own interests, that’s what we apparently wanted was for countries to work in their own interests. It was supposed to be a massive win for us because we’re so great and they want us to buy cheese or whatever. Now we’re whining that they’re being big meanies and won’t do what we want?

We’ve been saying since day one we wouldn’t hold all the cards in negotiations with the EU. For me that was reason number one to vote Remain: we will be a small country getting kicked about by large trading blocks. Now I’m supposed to get angry at a basic fact of trade we all saw coming?

come on man. You’re a sensible guy. Take the blue tinted specs off for a minute.
 
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wingy

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As the ex WTO guy said yesterday , with sovereignty does not come entitlement, you have to give to get , basically.
 

NorthernWisdom

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The only reason we aren’t extending it is because Brexit voters would get upset. That’s it.
I honestly believe many / most wouldn't, given we've had a global pandemic to contend with at the time! It's a willed political act, distorting the view of the people to become an ideology of power and control for themselves, not for the people.
 

shmmeee

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I honestly believe many / most wouldn't, given we've had a global pandemic to contend with at the time! It's a willed political act, distorting the view of the people to become an ideology of power and control for themselves, not for the people.
I mean enough Brexit voters have changed their minds that they’re a significant minority now anyway, so probably more accurate to say Brexit backers than Brexit voters. As in the likes of Farage, Dyson, etc.

Everything Johnson does is about his immediate friendships anyway.
 

CCFCSteve

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You couldn’t negotiate both at the same time, but this whole deadline is entirely self imposed. The only reason we aren’t extending it is because Brexit voters would get upset. That’s it. And we’ve been told for ages a deal will come at the last minute because that’s the best way to negotiate, so whatever deadline was set according to the government this was always the plan.

This whole thing is ludicrous Steve. Of course other countries have their own interests, that’s what we apparently wanted was for countries to work in their own interests. It was supposed to be a massive win for us because we’re so great and they want us to buy cheese or whatever. Now we’re whining that they’re being big meanies and won’t do what we want?

We’ve been saying since day one we wouldn’t hold all the cards in negotiations with the EU. For me that was reason number one to vote Remain: we will be a small country getting kicked about by large trading blocks. Now I’m supposed to get angry at a basic fact of trade we all saw coming?

come on man. You’re a sensible guy. Take the blue tinted specs off for a minute.
As I say no point debating. I’ve also said I’d reserve judgement until final position is delivered (for example I never wanted a ‘hard Brexit’ so my views might well alter depending on the outcome)

You may choose to side with other European nations, however unreasonable their demands might be, on the pretence that we deserve it for voting Brexit, or that’s what you get as a small nation rather than a trading block. I try to keep a relatively balanced view.

If we are that insignificant, why are the EU still pissing about with level playing field discussions, when we have apparently agreed to non regression clauses ?! Merkel appears to have taken a sensible approach throughout ie appears to want a close future relationship, knows its economically and socially beneficial for EU/UK to do so, but doesn’t want us to take the piss (by cutting employment or environmental standards). I’m not sure I can say the same about Macron

edit - just a little ps - most of the country just want this done one way or the other, I personally would’ve extended due to Covid but if you think that matters wouldn’t have gone down to exactly the same last min negations at a future deadline you’re being naive
 

skybluetony176

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Agreed, it does appear different types of Brexit and no realistic alternative with GFA. Will see what NI business says once people in the know have properly reviewed the details (DUP/ERG won’t be happy but as I say what’s the the realistic alternative based on EU/UK positions on Brexit)

If the solution helps to maintain GFA and works for NI (majority of people and business), I’ll take it
It’s not just NI businesses. It’s directly effecting the U.K. business I work for. A shitload of paperwork time and costs have just been created at an expense to our profits. Have about 8 transactions a month going to Ireland if you average it out over the year and about 4 a month to Northern Ireland. That’s 8 extra pieces of paperwork, costs and man hours both north and south as we have double the paperwork for for the new U.K. to U.K. border. Imagine if I worked for a company doing hundreds and thousands of transactions. We would have to take on extra staff if we were in that situation and companies are from manufacturing to wholesaling to the transport companies themselves. Many of these if not the majority have been built on a free market economy. The U.K. mainland is about to stop being a land bridge between mainland Europe and Ireland with new routes from France to Ireland due to start in January. I know for a fact that the transport company we use is holding its breath on that one given that is 50% of what they move.
 

CCFCSteve

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It’s not just NI businesses. It’s directly effecting the U.K. business I work for. A shitload of paperwork time and costs have just been created at an expense to our profits. Have about 8 transactions a month going to Ireland if you average it out over the year and about 4 a month to Northern Ireland. That’s 8 extra pieces of paperwork, costs and man hours both north and south as we have double the paperwork for for the new U.K. to U.K. border. Imagine if I worked for a company doing hundreds and thousands of transactions. We would have to take on extra staff if we were in that situation and companies are from manufacturing to wholesaling to the transport companies themselves. Many of these if not the majority have been built on a free market economy. The U.K. mainland is about to stop being a land bridge between mainland Europe and Ireland with new routes from France to Ireland due to start in January. I know for a fact that the transport company we use is holding its breath on that one given that is 50% of what they move.
It’s hard for me to comment Tony, as I don’t know enough about the final agreement or current/future paperwork. I’ve read some of the stuff on the government website which indicated ‘minimum changes’, which I wouldn’t necessarily believe, hence me saying Ill see what the people in the know say (noted that it will be impacting UK business as well as NI so will see what’s said by them as well)
 

chiefdave

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Struggling to see how the border issue has been resolved other than by us backing down. There just doesn't seem another viable alternative.
 

skybluetony176

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It’s hard for me to comment Tony, as I don’t know enough about the final agreement or current/future paperwork. I’ve read some of the stuff on the government website which indicated ‘minimum changes’, which I wouldn’t necessarily believe, hence me saying Ill see what the people in the know say (noted that it will be impacting UK business as well as NI so will see what’s said by them as well)
Minimum impact to trade to where though Steve?
We send stuff to all corners of the world and the paperwork exercise and the associated costs to send a 40ft container containing 22/23 pallets to the UAE will be simpler than sending 1 pallet on the back of a lorry from one part of the U.K. to another part of the U.K.. That’s the reality of Brexit. I can send 3 pallets in a mix load container to a war torn country like Libya and the paperwork exercise and associated costs easier and cheaper than I can from 1 part of the U.K. to another part of the U.K.. That’s the reality of Brexit. In fact the only countries that will be harder will be countries that insist imports are subject to third party inspection in country of origin. Which for us is 2 countries that we regularly deal with.
Michael Gove admitted to a select committee today that the EU will have a mini embassy in NI which will be part of the mechanism controlling goods traveling from one part of the U.K. to another and then from part of the U.K. across an open border into the E.U.. they’re not just policing goods going from the U.K. to the EU they’re policing goods going from one part of the U.K. to another part of U.K.. #takingbackcontrol. They’ve now got more authority on the movement of goods within the U.K. than they ever could have dreamed of having when we were members, that’s how much of a joke it’s become.
 
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CCFCSteve

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Minimum impact to trade to where though Steve?
We send stuff to all corners of the world and the paperwork exercise and the associated costs to send a 40ft container containing 22/23 pallets to the UAE will be simpler than sending 1 pallet on the back of a lorry from one part of the U.K. to another part of the U.K.. That’s the reality of Brexit. I can send 3 pallets in a mix load container to a war torn country like Libya and the paperwork exercise and associated costs easier and cheaper than I can from 1 part of the U.K. to another part of the U.K.. That’s the reality of Brexit. In fact the only countries that will be harder will be countries that insist imports are subject to third party inspection in country of origin. Which for us is 2 countries that we regularly deal with.
Michael Gove admitted to a select committee today that the EU will have a mini embassy in NI which will be part of the mechanism controlling goods traveling from one part of the U.K. to another and then from part of the U.K. across an open border into the U.K.. they’re not just policing goods going from the U.K. to the EU they’re policing goods going from one part of the U.K. to another part of U.K.. #takingbackcontrol. They’ve now got more authority on the movement of goods within the U.K. than they ever could have dreamed of having when we were members, that’s how much of a joke it’s become.
I was saying ‘minimum changes’ not minimum impact to trade ie government website suggesting not huge amounts of additional paperwork etc. As I say I wouldn’t necessarily believe that or what Gove says, but Im also not sure it’s quite the huge loss of control for the UK that youre indicating (although I guess the ERGs view may differ) However it’s not really an area I know a huge amount of knowledge of so will wait to see what various people/trade/political bodies etc who do, say.

ps I’m also not suggesting whatever delivered is a perfect solution either but as I say with GFA, NI business and trying to find a solution that appeases the EU to consider (‘protect the single market’) it’s always going to be a balancing act/trade off, like everything else
 
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skybluetony176

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I was saying ‘minimum changes’ not minimum impact to trade ie government website suggesting not huge amounts of additional paperwork etc. As I say I wouldn’t necessarily believe that or what Gove says, but Im also not sure it’s quite the huge loss of control for the UK that youre indicating (although I guess the ERGs view may differ) However it’s not really an area I know a huge amount of knowledge of so will wait to see what various people/trade/political bodies etc who do, say.

ps I’m also not suggesting whatever delivered is a perfect solution either but as I say with GFA, NI business and trying to find a solution that appeases the EU to consider (‘protect the single market’) it’s always going to be a balancing act/trade off, like everything else
But we’ve traded of an entire country. Which was apparently project fear. Minimum paperwork would be what we have with the rest of the world which is pretty much what will happen deal or no deal with the EU including the south of Ireland, not what we’re getting though within our own shores though. The trade of has been one of the hardest borders in the world and it’s within the U.K. itself. We’ve not only lost free trade with the EU we’ve lost free trade with ourselves. I don’t think you should be blaming this on the GFA either, it was always there and was always going to remain, leavers either ignored it, failed to have any understanding of it or believed the lies. All your blame of the GFA belongs to the people that sold leave firstly and to a lesser extent the people that voted for it because I’m yet to meet a voter that called this situation and as they constantly tell us they know what they voted for.
 
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CCFCSteve

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Don’t disagree with last sentence about lack of understanding of the issue and options relating to it (it was never really discussed in detail prior to the vote). Not quite sure I’m blaming the GFA though...I was saying that its a major consideration when seeking a solution to the problem
 

skybluetony176

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Has a country ever voted to create a border within itself before? We’ve essentially created two, remembering that lorries will need a passport to enter Kent.
 
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skybluetony176

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Australia deal!!!! Makes me laugh every time . Bunch of well spoken bellends
I was reading that Australia deal is actually better than the no deal we’ll possibly end with because Australia has a number of bilateral agreements with the EU that we won’t. It’s bullshit from top to bottom.