Plymouth shooting (1 Viewer)

Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Well-Known Member
There is a very ugly trait on this forum, and which seems to be getting worse, which is to take a statement or comment, add on a non sequitur or ad hominem, and direct anger and aggression at another poster.

If you look at my posts, I argued two points, one was whether the killer was mentally instable, and latched onto a meme that fuelled his hate, or, whether he was politically motivated. That seems to me to be a rational area of debate, and yet it just brings attacks and outrage.

In supporting the view that this was a man who was mentally instable, rather than politically motivated, I made reference to the fact that the posts on the incel site seemed to be motivated by the felt pressure to be a man (cause, individual feelings) with the effect of misogyny, rather than misogyny itself being the originating cause. I then get a barrage of posts with a non sequitur, about the 'pressure of being a man', as if I was arguing that point that simply making an observation of what the posters were saying, and towards the point I have made above.

That's all, a position of debate over whether this was 'politically motivated'. Yet, in common with so many posts here, before you know it I'm defending the guy, and otherwise subject to other's misplaced anger.

I don't do social media other than this forum, but I'm now seeing posts from people who I thought were, yes a little edgy, but fair and reasonable. I've always been socially naive. and I see I have been equally naive about this particular social media.

Can he not be mentally unstable AND politically motivated? The mental instability that has led to him seeking out those with a like mind (Incel's) which have entrenched his views and thus become politically or ideologically motivated? Because that sounds like a lot of terrorist groups, including Islamic fundamentalism and the alt-right.
 

Sky Blue Pete

Well-Known Member
Is it an individual any more than say a lone wolf Islamist fundamentalist going around killing people then killing themselves? Is there no longer a threat from them because the individual that carried out the attack is dead?

The Incel movement seems to have entrenched his views and helped him become radicalised. Is that much different to Islamic fundamentalism?
I think I’d want to review any firearm licences given back to violent people!

The information coming out now is just madness. The initial Twitter stories sounded like a family issue. The reality is truly terrible. Just wandering round the streets shooting whoever was in his way
 

Sky Blue Pete

Well-Known Member
It does make you wonder how the incident would be viewed if he were not white though? I reckon we'd be hearing a lot more about 'radicalised' and 'terror' if he wasn't.
We do have this discussion each time. When is a terror filled incident not terrorism. Think we probably need to start to look at the idealism as a thing and work needs to be done on what moves someone from being a dick to stabbing and shooting strangers and your mum
 

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
There is a very ugly trait on this forum, and which seems to be getting worse, which is to take a statement or comment, add on a non sequitur or ad hominem, and direct anger and aggression at another poster.

If you look at my posts, I argued two points, one was whether the killer was mentally instable, and latched onto a meme that fuelled his hate, or, whether he was politically motivated. That seems to me to be a rational area of debate, and yet it just brings attacks and outrage.

In supporting the view that this was a man who was mentally instable, rather than politically motivated, I made reference to the fact that the posts on the incel site seemed to be motivated by the felt pressure to be a man (cause, individual feelings) with the effect of misogyny, rather than misogyny itself being the originating cause. I then get a barrage of posts with a non sequitur, about the 'pressure of being a man', as if I was arguing that point that simply making an observation of what the posters were saying, and towards the point I have made above.

That's all, a position of debate over whether this was 'politically motivated'. Yet, in common with so many posts here, before you know it I'm defending the guy, and otherwise subject to other's misplaced anger.

I don't do social media other than this forum, but I'm now seeing posts from people who I thought were, yes a little edgy, but fair and reasonable. I've always been socially naive. and I see I have been equally naive about this particular social media.

You weren't being attacked, I was questioning your point of view.
It sounded to me like you were close to defending the guy.
I think the points you made would be relevant in a general debate about male mental health but not in relationship to this argument, just my opinion of course but I see its now come to light that the police have foiled two other planned incel attacks in this country so this lone madman argument really doesn't hold water.
 

Skybluefaz

Well-Known Member
We do have this discussion each time. When is a terror filled incident not terrorism. Think we probably need to start to look at the idealism as a thing and work needs to be done on what moves someone from being a dick to stabbing and shooting strangers and your mum
It's a horrible thing to debate. With this one though, where the perpetrator seems to be linked to a certain ideology it seems strange to dismiss the terrorism link. It might be the newness of this particular brand of dickhead and I expect it will be retrospectively changed to an act of terror.
 

Sky Blue Pete

Well-Known Member
It's a horrible thing to debate. With this one though, where the perpetrator seems to be linked to a certain ideology it seems strange to dismiss the terrorism link. It might be the newness of this particular brand of dickhead and I expect it will be retrospectively changed to an act of terror.
That’s where I am too
 

SBT

Well-Known Member
There is a very ugly trait on this forum, and which seems to be getting worse, which is to take a statement or comment, add on a non sequitur or ad hominem, and direct anger and aggression at another poster.

If you look at my posts, I argued two points, one was whether the killer was mentally instable, and latched onto a meme that fuelled his hate, or, whether he was politically motivated. That seems to me to be a rational area of debate, and yet it just brings attacks and outrage.

In supporting the view that this was a man who was mentally instable, rather than politically motivated, I made reference to the fact that the posts on the incel site seemed to be motivated by the felt pressure to be a man (cause, individual feelings) with the effect of misogyny, rather than misogyny itself being the originating cause. I then get a barrage of posts with a non sequitur, about the 'pressure of being a man', as if I was arguing that point that simply making an observation of what the posters were saying, and towards the point I have made above.

That's all, a position of debate over whether this was 'politically motivated'. Yet, in common with so many posts here, before you know it I'm defending the guy, and otherwise subject to other's misplaced anger.

I don't do social media other than this forum, but I'm now seeing posts from people who I thought were, yes a little edgy, but fair and reasonable. I've always been socially naive. and I see I have been equally naive about this particular social media.

PARKLIFE
 

Northants Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
The UN definition of `political' terrorism is nearly 30 years old and doesn't recognise the internet as we know it today.

As the Home Office recently said, Incel isn't covered by current anti-extremism laws so I'd be surprised if these aren't now looked at.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
You weren't being attacked, I was questioning your point of view.
It sounded to me like you were close to defending the guy.
I think the points you made would be relevant in a general debate about male mental health but not in relationship to this argument, just my opinion of course but I see its now come to light that the police have foiled two other planned incel attacks in this country so this lone madman argument really doesn't hold water.

he was being attacked and to even hint he defended him is pretty offensive and ridiculous in equal measure. I’ve read back all that he said and there was never any suggestion - the very accusation is attacking him.
 

oakey

Well-Known Member
Yep it’s quite a leap to say he did this for some warped reasons about his disrespect for women to then say they have to take some of the blame for his murders and his suicide. Mmmm
Not really. Blame the woman is embedded in patriarchal societies like ours. The list is endless but start with "she was asking for it", "she provoked me", nagging wives etc in relation to sexual and domestic violence.
The first words Adam speaks in Genesis are, "the woman told me to do it."
 

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