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Israel - Palestinian Conflict (4 Viewers)

  • Thread starter napolimp
  • Start date Oct 9, 2023
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Ccfcisparks

Well-Known Member
  • Thursday at 10:54 PM
  • #6,161
covcity4life said:
I'm sure it's just coincidence that so many racists in England "support" Israel in their matchup against Palestine

As for this situation its unfortunate but they wanna s oid violence. Also didn't the Israeli fans cause trouble in Amsterdam aswell?

Plus they shouldn't be allowed in the completion of Russian clubs ain't allowed
Click to expand...
yes the amount of england flags and israel flags in people’s bio on twitter is pretty stark.

is there any surprise their lord and saviour mr robinson is currently promoting his “state” visit to Israel in the last day or two
 
Reactions: wingy and covcity4life

Mucca Mad Boys

Well-Known Member
  • Thursday at 10:54 PM
  • #6,162
SBT said:
They surely would in certain countries. As I’ve said earlier in this thread, I don’t agree with that, but surely some club would ban them for fear of trouble.
Click to expand...
No they wouldn’t. You need to wake up and smell the coffee that this an ugly reflection of how mass migration has changed one our major cities. British Jews report feeling less and less safe in our country and that’s correlated with the increasing sectarianism in our politics. If a city being 30% Muslim makes it a ‘no-go’ area for certain demographics, this is a massive red flag and shameful episode. It also a kicker to our image as a successful multicultural country and the mantra of ‘diversity is our strength’.

Given how view on the Union Jack or St George’s cross making minorities feel unwelcome, your angle on this is strange.

There is no beef between Villa and Tel Aviv, Israel is supposedly an ally of the UK. The security risk is not high from a hooliganism POV. We wouldn’t ban Napoli fans, PSG, Marseille or any other European nation football fans. Heck, Galatasaray came to London twice in 2014 with fans allowed, despite their reputation with English football fans. Fenerbahce too in 2016.
 
Reactions: SIR ERNIE, oakey and nicksar

Ccfcisparks

Well-Known Member
  • Thursday at 10:55 PM
  • #6,163
Evo1883 said:
Well if there is no worry about violence then why are they banned and why are other ultra groups not banned from attending games in birmingham .

Im sure you arent that silly
Click to expand...
you’ve put 2+2 together and got 5. you’ve assumed, like hiraeth have said, because an mp has said it people are going to follow what he says
 

Evo1883

Well-Known Member
  • Thursday at 10:57 PM
  • #6,164
Ccfcisparks said:
you’ve put 2+2 together and got 5. you’ve assumed, like hiraeth have said, because an mp has said it people are going to follow what he says
Click to expand...

So in your opinion the local muslim population wouldnt interfere with their supporters whatsoever, the game would pass by incident free besides racist chanting from the israeli supporters ?

Your view and reality are probably not aligned here
 

Ccfcisparks

Well-Known Member
  • Thursday at 10:59 PM
  • #6,165
Evo1883 said:
So in your opinion the local muslim population wouldnt interfere with their supporters whatsoever, the game qould pass by incident free besides racist chanting from the israeli supporters ?

Your view and reality are probably not aligned here
Click to expand...
My partner is originally from that population and no I’d imagine neither her nor her family would partake in that.

You say my view and reality aren’t aligned but i’d suggest i’m much closer to it than you despite your protests.
 

Evo1883

Well-Known Member
  • Thursday at 11:00 PM
  • #6,166
Ccfcisparks said:
My partner is originally from that population and no I’d imagine neither her nor or her family would partake in that.

You say my view and reality aren’t aligned but i’d suggest i’m much closer to it than you despite your protests.
Click to expand...

Then why are they banned from attending and no other ultra group has been ? Do tell
 

mmttww

Well-Known Member
  • Thursday at 11:00 PM
  • #6,167

the video tries to build a timeline of what happened in Amsterdam last year by verifying locations and times of footage shared live and in the aftermath.

I don't think it's a hot take to understand if the folks responsible for policing the Villa match took those events into account when making their decision.
 
Last edited: Thursday at 11:08 PM

Ccfcisparks

Well-Known Member
  • Thursday at 11:00 PM
  • #6,168
Evo1883 said:
Then why are they banned from attending and no other ultra group has been ? Do tell
Click to expand...
don’t need to, you know it all as usual.
 

covcity4life

Well-Known Member
  • Thursday at 11:01 PM
  • #6,169
Mucca Mad Boys said:
No they wouldn’t. You need to wake up and smell the coffee that this an ugly reflection of how mass migration has changed one our major cities. British Jews report feeling less and less safe in our country and that’s correlated with the increasing sectarianism in our politics. If a city being 30% Muslim makes it a ‘no-go’ area for certain demographics, this is a massive red flag and shameful episode. It also a kicker to our image as a successful multicultural country and the mantra of ‘diversity is our strength’.

Given how view on the Union Jack or St George’s cross making minorities feel unwelcome, your angle on this is strange.

There is no beef between Villa and Tel Aviv, Israel is supposedly an ally of the UK. The security risk is not high from a hooliganism POV. We wouldn’t ban Napoli fans, PSG, Marseille or any other European nation football fans. Heck, Galatasaray came to London twice in 2014 with fans allowed, despite their reputation with English football fans. Fenerbahce too in 2016.
Click to expand...
Don't know for sure Tel Aviv fans wouldn't have been banned from a game against Nottingham forest though do we?

It's worth remembering that babies are being killed so people will be angry. It's probably human nature to feel it more when it's someone who looks like you I dunno
 

Evo1883

Well-Known Member
  • Thursday at 11:01 PM
  • #6,170
Ccfcisparks said:
don’t need to, you know it all as usual.
Click to expand...
Im asking you , if its not to upset the islamic population then im all ears
 

covcity4life

Well-Known Member
  • Thursday at 11:03 PM
  • #6,171
Evo1883 said:
Im asking you , if its not to upset the islamic population then im all ears
Click to expand...
There were worried about protests iand possible violence n Italy too when they played Israel last week. Talk of wil game go ahead etc.

Not sure Italy has massive Muslim population. Alot of people just opposed the genocide
 
Reactions: Sick Boy

Evo1883

Well-Known Member
  • Thursday at 11:06 PM
  • #6,172
covcity4life said:
There were worried about protests iand possible violence n Italy too when they played Israel last week. Talk of wil game go ahead etc.

Not sure Italy has massive Muslim population. Alot of people just opposed the genocide
Click to expand...


Tel aviv played in greece recently , the only game where fans have been banned is birmingham , i believe
 

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
  • Thursday at 11:09 PM
  • #6,173
Mucca Mad Boys said:
Should Palestine be banned too?
Click to expand...
Absolutely, we should immediately ban all teams from the Gaza Premier League from the Champions League.
 
Reactions: Otis and Evo1883
S

SBT

Well-Known Member
  • Thursday at 11:10 PM
  • #6,174
Mucca Mad Boys said:
You need to wake up and smell the coffee that this an ugly reflection of how mass migration has changed one our major cities. British Jews report feeling less and less safe in our country and that’s correlated with the increasing sectarianism in our politics. If a city being 30% Muslim makes it a ‘no-go’ area for certain demographics, this is a massive red flag and shameful episode. It also a kicker to our image as a successful multicultural country and the mantra of ‘diversity is our strength’.
Click to expand...
It is an extremely ugly situation all round and I’m not sure why you’re suggesting I think otherwise. Maccabi Tel Aviv fans have an element of their fanbase who have acted like thugs, and other fans of theirs have suffered anti-Semitic attacks as well - none of it is acceptable. Where we differ is that you seem to be suggesting we should move to protect one religious group by limiting another. Not sure that’s going to result in the utopia you remember from 10-20 years ago.
 
Reactions: mmttww

Evo1883

Well-Known Member
  • Thursday at 11:10 PM
  • #6,175
As stated earlier , not sure israel and its teams belong in european competetions to begin with
 

Hiraeth

Well-Known Member
  • Thursday at 11:12 PM
  • #6,176
covcity4life said:
I'm sure it's just coincidence that so many racists in England "support" Israel in their matchup against Palestine

As for this situation its unfortunate but they wanna s oid violence. Also didn't the Israeli fans cause trouble in Amsterdam aswell?

Plus they shouldn't be allowed in the completion of Russian clubs ain't allowed
Click to expand...
We all have different perspectives and that's fine - I don't personally see much support for the actions of the Israeli government amongst many people in England, whether they are racists or otherwise - personally think that is another fringe group of people. There will of course be some that think like that.

I'm a lot more comfortable with the notion of a ban on Israeli sporting teams based on the politics and actions of the Israeli government in the same vein as current Russian teams or previously South African sporting teams through sporting sanctions.

Banning individual football away fans seemingly because of their nationality or religion is something different and I'm disappointed to see Corbyns' MP appearing to treat that as something to be celebrated.
 
Reactions: wingy

covcity4life

Well-Known Member
  • Thursday at 11:13 PM
  • #6,177
Evo1883 said:
Tel aviv played in greece recently , the only game where fans have been banned is birmingham , i believe
Click to expand...
Yeah I'm not saying it's not cos of Muslim population. I'm just saying it might have been called off in different locations in England full stop just because of the opposition to what's happening

And if they have done it on behalf of Muslims it's their decision not the Muslims who have asked for it or made threats to the tel Aviv fans(that I know of anyway)
 

Otis

Well-Known Member
  • Thursday at 11:15 PM
  • #6,178
Mucca Mad Boys said:
Has anything else happened in the Netherlands? I’m only aware of the one incident.

One thing I’ve observed on social media is that many of the Pro-Pal people have v little to say about Hamas executing political enemies in the streets this week*.

*Or ethnic of the Uighurs in China… or massacres of Christians in the Middle East and Nigeria.
Click to expand...
I have mentioned the awful treatment of the Uighurs on a few occasions. Having watched a documentary on the brain washing taking place there, I was very vested in this story.

Back in Gaza, I was shocked to hear about the Hamas executions. Not quite sure what that's all about. Aren't they saying these were traitors who sided with Israel? Not that, that makes it right. I just haven't heard enough about that.

I thought the Nigerian thing was historical. Is that still going on?

As I have said a number of times, I despise Hamas, but so too this Israeli government.

Be great to see the back of Hamas for once and for all, but the exact same can be said about Netanyahu and his bunch of cronies
 
Reactions: Sick Boy

covcity4life

Well-Known Member
  • Thursday at 11:15 PM
  • #6,179
Hiraeth said:
We all have different perspectives and that's fine - I don't personally see much support for Israel amongst many people in England, whether they are racists or otherwise - personally think that is another fringe group of people. There will of course be some that think like that.

I'm a lot more comfortable with the notion of a ban on Israeli sporting teams based on the politics and actions of the Israeli government in the same vein as current Russian teams or previously South African sporting teams through sporting sanctions.

Banning individual football away fans seemingly because of their nationality or religion is something different and I'm disappointed to see Corbyns' MP appearing to treat that as something to be celebrated.
Click to expand...
Are they banned cos they Jewish though?

More likely that they are Israeli during a time their country is committing genocide and the world isn't happy. They want to avoid violence and people being hurt on both sides

It's not like it's a pub saying no blacks allowed.
 

Mucca Mad Boys

Well-Known Member
  • Thursday at 11:15 PM
  • #6,180
Evo1883 said:
I definitely see some religions as less progressive and more backward thinking than others , and in a progressive society i dont want more of it
Click to expand...
Leaders from the UAE and Saudi have been warning the west for decades about the people we’re letting in.

covcity4life said:
Don't know for sure Tel Aviv fans wouldn't have been banned from a game against Nottingham forest though do we?

It's worth remembering that babies are being killed so people will be angry. It's probably human nature to feel it more when it's someone who looks like you I dunno
Click to expand...

They probably won’t be now this has kicked off. In fact, it’ll say more about us if they were banned. The problem with sectarianism in our society is that people calling for ‘global interfada’ or ‘jihad’ is that they cannot demarcate ordinary Israeli’s from the IDF.

Many Israeli’s are critical of their regime and want the conflict to end, their citizens should not feel unsafe in neutral countries.
 

Otis

Well-Known Member
  • Thursday at 11:18 PM
  • #6,181
Evo1883 said:
If we cut to the chase , the reason their fans have been banned is because the local authorities cant guarantee their safety because birmingham has a very large muslim population that will probably be out for blood .

Isnt this the truth ?
Click to expand...
Yeah. It's the SAG isn't.

I just think they can see that it's might well all kick off.

They have no political affiliation do they?
 

Ccfcisparks

Well-Known Member
  • Thursday at 11:19 PM
  • #6,182
Mucca Mad Boys said:
Leaders from the UAE and Saudi have been warning the west for decades about the people we’re letting in.



They probably won’t be now this has kicked off. In fact, it’ll say more about us if they were banned. The problem with sectarianism in our society is that people calling for ‘global interfada’ or ‘jihad’ is that they cannot demarcate ordinary Israeli’s from the IDF.

Many Israeli’s are critical of their regime and want the conflict to end, their citizens should not feel unsafe in neutral countries.
Click to expand...
oh yes the saudi’s the real friends we should be keeping
 
Reactions: Sick Boy and Otis

Evo1883

Well-Known Member
  • Thursday at 11:20 PM
  • #6,183
Otis said:
Yeah. It's the SAG isn't.

I just think they can see that it's might well all kick off.

They have no political affiliation do they?
Click to expand...

I think WMP will have had a large say
 
Reactions: RegTheDonk and Otis

covcity4life

Well-Known Member
  • Thursday at 11:20 PM
  • #6,184
Mucca Mad Boys said:
Leaders from the UAE and Saudi have been warning the west for decades about the people we’re letting in.



They probably won’t be now this has kicked off. In fact, it’ll say more about us if they were banned. The problem with sectarianism in our society is that people calling for ‘global interfada’ or ‘jihad’ is that they cannot demarcate ordinary Israeli’s from the IDF.

Many Israeli’s are critical of their regime and want the conflict to end, their citizens should not feel unsafe in neutral countries.
Click to expand...
That's the same as saying Palestinians are not hamas. Yet that's the justification Israel and USA use.

I have no doubt there are Israelis horrified at what they are seeing(seem less vocal about it than Russians though?) but the Tel Aviv fans apparently caused trouble in Amsterdam so have previous
 

Hiraeth

Well-Known Member
  • Thursday at 11:23 PM
  • #6,185
covcity4life said:
Are they banned cos they Jewish though?

More likely that they are Israeli during a time their country is committing genocide and the world isn't happy. They want to avoid violence and people being hurt on both sides

It's not like it's a pub saying no blacks allowed.
Click to expand...
Maybe it is their nationality and not their religion that causes these football away fans to be banned.

I'm not sure banning away fans cos of their nationality is a good thing.

If threats of protests or suggestions of violence were made against away fans of other nationalities, do we similarly ban those away fans as well and pander to any group that might incite trouble.

Where do we draw the line on away fans nationalities?
 

covcity4life

Well-Known Member
  • Thursday at 11:25 PM
  • #6,186
Hiraeth said:
Maybe it is their nationality and not their religion that causes these football away fans to be banned.

I'm not sure banning away fans cos of their nationality is a good thing.

If threats of protests or suggestions of violence were made against away fans of other nationalities, do we similarly ban those away fans as well and pander to any group that might incite trouble.

Where do we draw the line on away fans nationalities?
Click to expand...
We were banned for a while (English)

Not saying it's a good thing. Just saying not banned cos they Jewish. It is their nationality because they may be targeted yes

It's not a good situation at all. But not sure if it's worth crying about when a genocide has taken place last 2 years that's caused this issue with a Europa league game.

And what I mean by that is things like this unfortunately are inevitable
 
S

SBT

Well-Known Member
  • Thursday at 11:26 PM
  • #6,187
Otis said:
Yeah. It's the SAG isn't.

I just think they can see that it's might well all kick off.

They have no political affiliation do they?
Click to expand...
I think it’s hard to be definitive about why this decision has been taken without knowing who even sits on the SAG that made it.
 
Reactions: Otis and Evo1883

Otis

Well-Known Member
  • Thursday at 11:28 PM
  • #6,188
Ccfcisparks said:
oh yes the saudi’s the real friends we should be keeping
Click to expand...
Awful regime. Really annoys me that we still treat them like they are friends
 
Reactions: Sick Boy

Mucca Mad Boys

Well-Known Member
  • Thursday at 11:45 PM
  • #6,189
chiefdave said:
Absolutely, we should immediately ban all teams from the Gaza Premier League from the Champions League.
Click to expand...
Funny man. Palestine still play in FIFA sanctioned matches and were in World Cup qualifying earlier in the year.

SBT said:
It is an extremely ugly situation all round and I’m not sure why you’re suggesting I think otherwise. Maccabi Tel Aviv fans have an element of their fanbase who have acted like thugs, and other fans of theirs have suffered anti-Semitic attacks as well - none of it is acceptable. Where we differ is that you seem to be suggesting we should move to protect one religious group by limiting another. Not sure that’s going to result in the utopia you remember from 10-20 years ago.
Click to expand...

You’ve got it twisted. The people being literally limited are ordinary Israeli football fans. It’s categorised as a ‘high risk’ match not because of a few hundred (if that) Tel Aviv fans.

The reality is that Birmingham has a large Muslim population, routinely has Pro-Pal demos where ugly chats can be heard. Therefore, it’s plainly obvious that the local authorities are not confident they can guarantee the safety of our visitors.

covcity4life said:
That's the same as saying Palestinians are not hamas. Yet that's the justification Israel and USA use.

I have no doubt there are Israelis horrified at what they are seeing(seem less vocal about it than Russians though?) but the Tel Aviv fans apparently caused trouble in Amsterdam so have previous
Click to expand...

Of the people arrested on that week for the riots, Tel Aviv fans numbered small %. Does that sound like they caused the ruckus? The Dutch authorities don’t seem to lay the blame on them.

Besides, this is Britain where cultural identity and religion our protected characteristics. So the failure

The reasons given weren’t to do with hooliganism from a v small group of Tel Aviv fans.

Of course, has nothing to do with stuff like the below being spouted.


Ccfcisparks said:
oh yes the saudi’s the real friends we should be keeping
Click to expand...
They probably understand the dynamics of the Arab and Islamic world better than we do.
 

Hiraeth

Well-Known Member
  • Thursday at 11:46 PM
  • #6,190
covcity4life said:
We were banned for a while (English)

Not saying it's a good thing. Just saying not banned cos they Jewish. It is their nationality because they may be targeted yes

It's not a good situation at all. But not sure if it's worth crying about when a genocide has taken place last 2 years that's caused this issue with a Europa league game.

And what I mean by that is things like this unfortunately are inevitable
Click to expand...
I didn't think English fans were banned because of fears for their safety arising from people conflating their individual English or British nationality with the actions of the British government.

I think it's possible to condemn and argue against all of these whether that was the Hamas attack, the Israeli governments actions in Gaza and banning away fans from matches in England based on the nationality of those fans.
I am not suggesting a false equivalence between the harms of the killings that have been taking place and the harms of the away fans ban.

I just don't know where we draw the line on fans of which nationalities are acceptable and which fans nationalities aren't acceptable?
 
Reactions: oakey
S

SBT

Well-Known Member
  • Thursday at 11:51 PM
  • #6,191
Mucca Mad Boys said:
You’ve got it twisted. The people being literally limited are ordinary Israeli football fans. It’s categorised as a ‘high risk’ match not because of a few hundred (if that) Tel Aviv fans.

The reality is that Birmingham has a large Muslim population, routinely has Pro-Pal demos where ugly chats can be heard. Therefore, it’s plainly obvious that the local authorities are not confident they can guarantee the safety of our visitors.
Click to expand...
Not sure how many times I need to say that I don’t think the Tel Aviv fans should have been banned. Despite the ugly elements among their support, they don’t deserve to be tarred with the same brush, and you should deal with any trouble as it happens, not just throw them on the scrap heap. Can you say the same about Birmingham’s Muslim population, or should our working assumption be that they’re all “out for blood”?
 
Reactions: Sick Boy and covcity4life

covcity4life

Well-Known Member
  • Thursday at 11:55 PM
  • #6,192
Hiraeth said:
I didn't think English fans were banned because of fears for their safety arising from people conflating their individual English or British nationality with the actions of the British government.

I think it's possible to condemn and argue against all of these whether that was the Hamas attack, the Israeli governments actions in Gaza and banning away fans from matches in England based on the nationality of those fans.
I am not suggesting a false equivalence between the harms of the killings that have been taking place and the harms of the away fans ban.

I just don't know where we draw the line on fans of which nationalities are acceptable and which fans nationalities aren't a?
Click to expand...
Like I said it's not a good situation but its inevitable

If they let them come and some psycho kills one or they kill a Brummie during a fracas then things are much worse

If England were bombing Holland to shit and then a English club played in Belgium I could imagine them saying no to fans coming

The fact Muslims are more united than other races (obviously I know there some exceptions that with different seats etc)definetly plays a part I won't deny that.
 

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
  • Thursday at 11:55 PM
  • #6,193
Mucca Mad Boys said:
The people being literally limited are ordinary Israeli football fans.
Click to expand...
Don't think anyone is going to be worried about regular football fans, far more likely the concern is around the very right wing Maccabi Fanatics who have been travelling to away games in Europe in large numbers and causing trouble.

The idea that the SAG in conjunction with the police, who are quite happy to go around rounding up people who protest against genocide in Gaza, have suddenly decided to put the ban in place based on politics, religion or anything other than a risk assessment is far fetched to say the least and an argument could be made to make such claims is anti-semitic in itself people are happily conflating supporters of the club, or Israelis, with all Jews and making statements claiming Jews are banned.
 
Reactions: mmttww and covcity4life

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
  • Thursday at 11:57 PM
  • #6,194
SBT said:
Not sure how many times I need to say that I don’t think the Tel Aviv fans should have been banned.
Click to expand...
Its entirely possible, or at least should be, to believe supporters shouldn't be banned while acknowledging this isn't a one off and other clubs have in the past, and no doubt will in the future, had to play without their fans in attendance.

Not sure why this is being made out to be some unique situation.
 

Mucca Mad Boys

Well-Known Member
  • Yesterday at 12:05 AM
  • #6,195
SBT said:
Not sure how many times I need to say that I don’t think the Tel Aviv fans should have been banned. Despite the ugly elements among their support, they don’t deserve to be tarred with the same brush, and you should deal with any trouble as it happens, not just throw them on the scrap heap. Can you say the same about Birmingham’s Muslim population, or should our working assumption be that they’re all “out for blood”?
Click to expand...
Why are you putting something I didn’t say in quotation marks? That is incredibly misleading and disingenuous.

You regularly go down weird rabbit holes. I stated the reason was that authorities considered the demographics made the call, you seemingly disagreed by pointing to examples of hooliganism. Fine.

When that flawed logic was exposed, you imply I want to ‘limit’ minorities and attribute a quote to me that isn’t what I remotely said.

I just shared a video of a local cleric basically saying the usual rules of Islam do not apply to the IDF visiting Birmingham. For example, usury is heavily condemned in Islam yet the cleric said it’s ok to do it against the IDF i.e. Israelis of whom are mostly Jewish people.

A bemusing and veiled antisemitic statement.
 
Reactions: oakey and nicksar
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