Do you want to discuss boring politics? (37 Viewers)

[Grendel]

you know fuck all about economics

Would a wage/price spiral cause inflation to run out of control?

Treasury officials’ fear that rising pay in pursuit of rising prices will create a vicious circle may be unjustified

www.theguardian.com

 

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[shmmeee]

What does this even mean? It’s classic Kier word salad.

Which word is giving you trouble?

The aim of the Labour Party is to get into govenrment (“party of Government”), they are not a protest group or a niche party, as such they should aim to attract as many people as possible to vote for them.

More people think Labour have been too supportive of the strikes than too negative. Therefore the correct position, considering their aim of attracting voters, is to be more skeptical of the strikes.

Brighton, and you it seems, are in a very small minority of people who think Labour have been too negative. However electoral politics being what it is means that you won’t be catered to by a party of government as you are a minority. You are also likely to not vote Tory and live somewhere that isn’t a target seat.

 

[shmmeee]

Yes, but the inflation currently is beyond control based on what's happening in Ukraine forcing everything up on the back of a lengthy furlough period protecting jobs. There is no magic nony tree, but surely if you're unhappy with your pay increases, youu could change jobs - I know from trying to recruit that it's certainly an employee's market out there at present.

How do you change employer in a market with only one employer (I.e. public sector or similar).

 

[skybluetony176]

Yes, but the inflation currently is beyond control based on what's happening in Ukraine forcing everything up on the back of a lengthy furlough period protecting jobs. There is no magic nony tree, but surely if you're unhappy with your pay increases, youu could change jobs - I know from trying to recruit that it's certainly an employee's market out there at present.

So if it’s beyond control because of the Ukrain thing then the arguments against pay increases is surely diminished.

Like most people (except the wealthy who continue to get inflation busting richer) in real terms I’m earning less now than I was 10 years ago. My pay packet doesn’t say that but the reality is I have far less expendable income than I did a decade ago and that diminished pot doesn’t go as far due to price increases. Nothing in my circumstances has changed in that time either.

I think the average amongst working and middle class is 19% worse of in real terms than they were a decade ago, while the wealthiest get richer. It’s stagnating growth and the economy. What’s needed is not a bigger money pot but a fairer distribution of wealth. Something as simple as reversing the tax hikes for the average joe and increasing taxes on the wealthiest would help address that. Instead at a time when we’re seeing the biggest drops in living standards, expendable income etc we’re also being lumbered with the biggest tax burdens in generations. No wonder the country is spiralling with no one at the wheel.

 

[rob9872]

How do you change employer in a market with only one employer (I.e. public sector or similar).

Move into the private sector ... but then you know this of course and are being mischievous ... and the reason you wont do this is because actually you know how well off you are in real terms with pension rights etc.

 

[David O'Day]

Move into the private sector ... but then you know this of course and are being mischievous ... and the reason you wont do this is because actually you know how well off you are in real terms with pension rights etc.

so what about teachers and nurses? firefighters and doctors?

 

[shmmeee]

I do get your point, but we are at a stage where if you don't go for Labour/Starmer, you WILL end up with Johnson instead. Which would you prefer?

I don't like the idea of voting for someone because hey aren't someone else, but we're now so desperately in the shit it's something we as a nation really have to consider.

Votes for left wing parties tend to outnumber those for right wing, yet we always seem to get a right wing govenment. There's numerous reasons for that but one big one is that the right wing vote is less fragmented than the left. The vast majority of that persuasion will vote Tory, whereas left has a lot for Labour but in the past has seen decent proportions go to Lib Dem, SNP in Scotland and no the green vote is looking like it could increase significantly. We might look for this perfect fit, but all that seems to result in successive Tory governments.

Political parties are buses, not taxis. You pick the one that’s coming along and gets you closest to your destination.

 

[NorthernWisdom]

Move into the private sector ... but then you know this of course and are being mischievous ... and the reason you wont do this is because actually you know how well off you are in real terms with pension rights etc.

My pension in the public sector is worse than the one I have from the private sector.

 

[shmmeee]

Move into the private sector ... but then you know this of course and are being mischievous ... and the reason you wont do this is because actually you know how well off you are in real terms with pension rights etc.

I work in the private sector and have a private pension so not sure what you’re on about. Who are the private London Underground operators?

 

[shmmeee]

My pension in the public sector is worse than the one I have from the private sector.

TBF Rob seemingly last checked reality around 1974.

 

[fernandopartridge]

Move into the private sector ... but then you know this of course and are being mischievous ... and the reason you wont do this is because actually you know how well off you are in real terms with pension rights etc.

People working in the public sector make a greater contribution to their own pension than most working in the private sector, the take home pay differential is big but there is no way the overall package in the public sector is better. Pay in the public sector has fallen in real terms over the last 15 years and with that so have pension values.

I think it was 2009 under Labour that the civil service changed from final salary to career average pension.

 

[clint van damme]

Perhaps the solution is to have an independent pay review for public bodies and the employee and unions agree to accept the outcome whatever it is

Fairly sure some unions have tried to go down that route before.

 

[Grendel]

I work in the private sector and have a private pension so not sure what you’re on about. Who are the private London Underground operators?

You worked in the public sector and changed profession

 

[skybluetony176]

The thesis behind increased wages leading to increased inflation is centred around one thing: profit margin. If companies were willing to take the hit on their margin then it wouldn’t be an issue. The fact they feel the need to put prices up and restore their margin shows the general greed.

And no, I’m not saying that every business can limit their margins but fuck me, if a rail network which is Government-subsidised can’t then what hope is there?

Wages is not even a driving force in price rises. It’s the same thing that effects everything else, higher prices of raw materials, higher prices in fuel which is then leading to higher prices in shipping, rinse and repeat. Try getting a container of something from Asia, it’s at least 5 times the cost it was 18months-2 years ago if not more. No one is earning 5 times what they were earning 2 years ago. The average pay rise over the last 12 months is 4.8% and even that figure is misleading because most public sector workers have had far less (my wife for instance hasn’t had a pay rise in over a decade because she’s already on the highest grade for her job in the public sector), most working class people won’t have had that either, the figures get skewed by those at the top getting massive pay rises and massive bonuses.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Perhaps the solution is to have an independent pay review for public bodies and the employee and unions agree to accept the outcome whatever it is

Teachers have had such a body for 30 years and it was in fact put forward by the unions

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

In Victorian times when most people had nothing they were far more valuable.

And they're vital in making sure at the very least we don't end up back there.

If you let companies get rid of employees, not give those left pay rises and increase their workload to make more profit then that's where we end up. And that's a possibility if you have a government that constantly demonises and criminalises union activity and strikes.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Well you don't like the current crop, so we need the salaries to represent what an important job they do and ensure it's attractive enough to encourage the next batch to aspire.

Waste collectors do an important job. So do train drivers.

I think I'd notice them not doing anything long before a bunch of self-important arseholes stopped acting like schoolchildren shouting at each other in a fancy old building before writing down some bullshit on goatskin that they have no intention of following themselves.

 

[Grendel]

Waste collectors do an important job. So do train drivers.

I think I'd notice them not doing anything long before a bunch of self-important arseholes stopped acting like schoolchildren shouting at each other in a fancy old building before writing down some bullshit on goatskin that they have no intention of following themselves.

If they are so clever why didn’t they follow the latter route then?

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Perhaps the solution is to have an independent pay review for public bodies and the employee and unions agree to accept the outcome whatever it is

And how often are these actually 'independent'? It's heavily govt influenced under the veneer of independent.

 

[Grendel]

And how often are these actually 'independent'? It's heavily govt influenced under the veneer of independent.

You really need to flick that chip off your shoulder

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

It’s obviously an assumption but based on human nature and the fact that every interview discussing the strike those supporting it (Lynch etc) have focussed on pay and the cost of living crisis. I then asked myself if the workers were offered an 8-10% pay rise would they be striking. I doubt it

As I’ve said it’s each to their own if they support the strike, I can see both sides of the argument. The offer of 2% plus an extra couple of 0.5% rises with tie ins felt derisory under the current climate and so I can understand why they are striking, even if I don’t necessarily agree with strikes (except if there were dangerous working conditions).

There should hopefully be a happy medium of say 6-7% pay rise (maybe even a bit more for lowest paid ie sub national average) with some agreement on efficiency savings to try to minimise increased cost/burden on customers

But inflation is running at 9% so you're saying that they should accept a real terms pay cut after years of wage stagnation?

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Political parties are buses, not taxis. You pick the one that’s coming along and gets you closest to your destination.

Except the only bus that gets to the destination is the blue bus because all the other routes don't get enough passengers to make them viable services.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Wages is not even a driving force in price rises. It’s the same thing that effects everything else, higher prices of raw materials, higher prices in fuel which is then leading to higher prices in shipping, rinse and repeat. Try getting a container of something from Asia, it’s at least 5 times the cost it was 18months-2 years ago if not more. No one is earning 5 times what they were earning 2 years ago. The average pay rise over the last 12 months is 4.8% and even that figure is misleading because most public sector workers have had far less (my wife for instance hasn’t had a pay rise in over a decade because she’s already on the highest grade for her job in the public sector), most working class people won’t have had that either, the figures get skewed by those at the top getting massive pay rises and massive bonuses.

I think you missed off the biggest cause of price rises - greed for higher profit margins.

 

[shmmeee]

You worked in the public sector and changed profession

I did, like many teachers who could earn more and have less stress in the private sector.

And that’s why we have a shortage of decent STEM teachers.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

The fucking state of this

And brexit was??

 

[Grendel]

Except the only bus that gets to the destination is the blue bus because all the other routes don't get enough passengers to make them viable services.

That’s because they send you the wrong way, charge more and the driver walks off on strike halfway through the Journey as he decides 3 GCSE’s make him a skilled worker

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

If they are so clever why didn’t they follow the latter route then?

Because they're not self-important arseholes.

Who would empty your bins if everyone decided it was below them?

 

[Grendel]

Because they're not self-important arseholes.

Who would empty your bins if everyone decided it was below them?

My bins are being emptied every week what are you on about - they aren’t even on strike are they?

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Yes, but the inflation currently is beyond control based on what's happening in Ukraine forcing everything up on the back of a lengthy furlough period protecting jobs. There is no magic nony tree, but surely if you're unhappy with your pay increases, youu could change jobs - I know from trying to recruit that it's certainly an employee's market out there at present.

There is if you’re a billionaire or mates with the current government for everyone else no I agree

 

[Grendel]

There is if you’re a billionaire or mates with the current government for everyone else no I agree

More left wing cliche twaddle

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

That’s because they send you the wrong way, charge more and the driver walks off on strike halfway through the Journey as he decides 3 GCSE’s make him a skilled worker

So instead they get a bus that's ageing and has had maintenance skipped on it, where everything has been stripped back to the bare minimum and ideally want you to bring your own seat if they could get away with it, travelling on old routes that have been shown inadequate for the journey for a long time. All for an extortionate price to get on the bus, then get charged per mile and charged to get off while the bus driver looks down on you and calls you a pleb because his dad got him the job through a mate.

 

[Grendel]

So instead they get a bus that's ageing and has had maintenance skipped on it, where everything has been stripped back to the bare minimum and ideally want you to bring your own seat if they could get away with it, travelling on old routes that have been shown inadequate for the journey for a long time. All for an extortionate price to get on the bus, then get charged per mile and charged to get off while the bus driver looks down on you and calls you a pleb because his dad got him the job through a mate.

Boarding that bus has done fine for me - just laid out a quarter of a million on a second home mate paid cash and I come from a council house - work harder and stop being bitter

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

My bins are being emptied every week what are you on about - they aren’t even on strike are they?

But why are those people emptying your bins rather than doing something else that pays more?

The fact is if you take your argument to it's logical conclusion of everyone striving to get better jobs either through intelligence or hard work, there will be no-one left to do the actual jobs that make society function on a day to day basis.

At which case you're left with offering them massive pay increases to get them to do those jobs, because they still need to be done.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

More left wing cliche twaddle

What’s not true about the rich getting sigmicksnlfy richer
The government defrauding the public during the pandemic to give contracts to those that they work and live closely with
And everyone else paying the penalty??

 

[NorthernWisdom]

Boarding that bus has done fine for me - just laid out a quarter of a million on a second home mate paid cash and I come from a council house - work harder and stop being bitter