Do you want to discuss boring politics? (23 Viewers)

Mucca Mad Boys · Apr 17, 2021

Grendel said:
Who knows? Possibly as I say there’s a large slice of luck - there always is

I know a fair few people from very average beginnings who’ve significantly enhanced their “status” - a couple who are practically in the millionaire bracket who’ve got zero qualifications but a high ethic to achieve

Really what I’m trying to do is explain why people don’t vote for a party like Labour. It’s a dinosaur concept. A lot of people will ask the question as to how is this party going to make me get out of drudgery and into the middle classes - it is a concept politically that lacks ambition and is jaded

I don’t think forums like this work for political discussion. If you believe this thread you assume most people would vote labour - that’s clearly not true it’s just most people can’t be bothered to enter a discussion - especially those on the “winning” side

The constant undertone that working class people who vote Tory are thick and I’m really clever so you listen to me isn’t a great sales Pitch either

Society has changed fundamentally from the 80s when there was a sizeable industrial working class to speak of and the Labour Party hasn’t adapted well to this since 2005. I think the Gordon Brown ‘bigoted’ comment is probably the key starting point when Labour Party began its disconnect with its core voters.

Generally, left wing parties have moved away from class based politics, adopt more and more fringe issues of ‘marginalised peoples’. It’s a bit disingenuous to claim Labour as a ‘true’ working class party anymore. Just take a look at it’s typically middle class, university educated representatives who have never had a ‘working class’ job in their life.

I play rugby with quite a few ex-lifelong Labour voters who absolutely would not vote for the party after Corbyn.

Which exposes some fundamental issues with the Labour Party because they’re haemorrhaging votes everywhere. They’ve lost Scotland, the Red Wall and their vote share in Wales is declining.

The issue is not the electorate, it’s the party.

Ian1779 · Apr 17, 2021

If Brexit had been totally resolved before 2019 there was no way the Tories would have an 80 seat majority. They would have been the largest party still, and may have gotten a very small majority on their own.

Brighton Sky Blue · Apr 17, 2021

Grendel said:
Who knows? Possibly as I say there’s a large slice of luck - there always is

I know a fair few people from very average beginnings who’ve significantly enhanced their “status” - a couple who are practically in the millionaire bracket who’ve got zero qualifications but a high ethic to achieve

Really what I’m trying to do is explain why people don’t vote for a party like Labour. It’s a dinosaur concept. A lot of people will ask the question as to how is this party going to make me get out of drudgery and into the middle classes - it is a concept politically that lacks ambition and is jaded

I don’t think forums like this work for political discussion. If you believe this thread you assume most people would vote labour - that’s clearly not true it’s just most people can’t be bothered to enter a discussion - especially those on the “winning” side

The constant undertone that working class people who vote Tory are thick and I’m really clever so you listen to me isn’t a great sales Pitch either

Equally G there are many more who work extremely hard and get nowhere. Or as is the case must then ask for handouts at a food bank which seems to be a 2010+ phenomenon unless I’m mistaken. Employment today is less secure and more temporary than it was in the past and a full time job does not offer the financial security it used to, so what is the answer?

Most of my friends are lifelong Tory voters. One is an Asian lad who in seriousness says he would favour immigration policies that keep people like him out of the country. Others vote for them in the belief they’ll get lower taxes despite recognising that the party gives bigger breaks to people much wealthier than them. I don’t really know what you’re meant to say in reply to oxymoronic voters like that.

In any case with the impending collapse of the Union there’ll soon be a place to go more in line with the values I prefer

Mucca Mad Boys · Apr 17, 2021

Ian1779 said:
If Brexit had been totally resolved before 2019 there was no way the Tories would have an 80 seat majority. They would have been the largest party still, and may have gotten a very small majority on their own.

With hindsight, losing Stoke-On-Trent Central and Mansfield was a warning shot to the Labour Party in 2017. Two Labour strongholds since the 1920-30s flipped to Conservative.

Brexit sped up a process that has been happening since around 2005.

Grendel · Apr 17, 2021

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Equally G there are many more who work extremely hard and get nowhere. Or as is the case must then ask for handouts at a food bank which seems to be a 2010+ phenomenon unless I’m mistaken. Employment today is less secure and more temporary than it was in the past and a full time job does not offer the financial security it used to, so what is the answer?

Most of my friends are lifelong Tory voters. One is an Asian lad who in seriousness says he would favour immigration policies that keep people like him out of the country. Others vote for them in the belief they’ll get lower taxes despite recognising that the party gives bigger breaks to people much wealthier than them. I don’t really know what you’re meant to say in reply to oxymoronic voters like that.

In any case with the impending collapse of the Union there’ll soon be a place to go more in line with the values I prefer

There won’t be a collapse of the Union - prepare for more disappointing times

Brighton Sky Blue · Apr 17, 2021

Mucca Mad Boys said:
With hindsight, losing Stoke-On-Trent Central and Mansfield was a warning shot to the Labour Party in 2017. Two Labour strongholds since the 1920-30s flipped to Conservative.

Brexit sped up a process that has been happening since around 2005.

County Durham seats going Tory would have my grandad spinning in his grave if he hadn’t been cremated

Brighton Sky Blue · Apr 17, 2021

Grendel said:
There won’t be a collapse of the Union - prepare for more disappointing times

Irish unity and Scottish independence before the decade is up, at least one of them if not both.

Grendel · Apr 17, 2021

Mucca Mad Boys said:
With hindsight, losing Stoke-On-Trent Central and Mansfield was a warning shot to the Labour Party in 2017. Two Labour strongholds since the 1920-30s flipped to Conservative.

Brexit sped up a process that has been happening since around 2005.

If Labour lose Hartlepool Ian will still blame Brexit

Ian1779 · Apr 17, 2021

Grendel said:
If Labour lose Hartlepool Ian will still blame Brexit

If Labour lose Hartlepool it won’t be because ‘of’ Brexit. It’ll be parachuting in a staunch remainer that was all over the PV policy with no connect to the area whatsoever.

Brighton Sky Blue · Apr 17, 2021

Ian1779 said:
If Labour lose Hartlepool it won’t be because ‘of’ Brexit. It’ll be parachuting in a staunch remainer that was all over the PV policy with no connect to the area whatsoever.

Won’t it be the previous MP being naughty

Ian1779 · Apr 17, 2021

Mucca Mad Boys said:
With hindsight, losing Stoke-On-Trent Central and Mansfield was a warning shot to the Labour Party in 2017. Two Labour strongholds since the 1920-30s flipped to Conservative.

Brexit sped up a process that has been happening since around 2005.

That’s a fair comment, so why was the general decline in ‘red wall’ seats that had been happening over the last 25 years start to reverse in 2017?

Ian1779 · Apr 17, 2021

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Won’t it be the previous MP being naughty

Who knows... you’d have thought that kind of behaviour is fair game in the Tory world.

Mucca Mad Boys · Apr 17, 2021

Ian1779 said:
That’s a fair comment, so why was the general decline in ‘red wall’ seats that had been happening over the last 25 years start to reverse in 2017?

Collapse of third party support. This buoyed both the Tories and Labour as they polled above 40% for the first time since the 1970/80s. Brexit nullified UKIPs raison d’être and Lib Democrats were (and still are) a complete non-factor in most constituencies.

Until the Lib Dems become a substantial force in UK politics in terms of vote share, the Tories will be in power because they have won a majority in England in virtually every UK general election. Which is why it baffles me Labour has left the SNP in Scotland unchecked because unless they can muster 15-20 Scottish seats, there’s virtually no hope for a Labour majority government. Pre-2015, they could reliably expect 40 Scottish MPs.

Mucca Mad Boys · Apr 17, 2021

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Irish unity and Scottish independence before the decade is up, at least one of them if not both.

Brexit, ironically, has made the case for Scottish independence even harder. A hard border with England as they join the EU?

Irish unity is a likelihood even without Brexit as the long term demographics trends toward catholics which mostly favours the Republican cause.

Skybluefaz · Apr 17, 2021

British workers 'among worst idlers', suggest Tory MPs

Many British employees "prefer a lie-in to hard work", a group of Conservative MPs claims as they call for measures to boost productivity.

www.bbc.co.uk

The party of the working people. They will be happy when the work houses return.

PVA · Apr 17, 2021

Skybluefaz said:
British workers 'among worst idlers', suggest Tory MPs

Many British employees "prefer a lie-in to hard work", a group of Conservative MPs claims as they call for measures to boost productivity.

www.bbc.co.uk

The party of the working people. They will be happy when the work houses return.

Truss, Raab and Patel, now idolised by the very people they insulted. This country

Skybluefaz · Apr 17, 2021

PVA said:
Truss, Raab and Patel, now idolised by the very people they insulted. This country

Weird isn't it?

Brighton Sky Blue · Apr 17, 2021

Skybluefaz said:
British workers 'among worst idlers', suggest Tory MPs

Many British employees "prefer a lie-in to hard work", a group of Conservative MPs claims as they call for measures to boost productivity.

www.bbc.co.uk

The party of the working people. They will be happy when the work houses return.

They'd quite like to emulate the slave wages and slum working conditions of south Asia I suppose.

PVA · Apr 17, 2021

Skybluefaz said:
Weird isn't it?

They seem to get off on it, it is weird you're right

Skybluefaz · Apr 17, 2021

PVA said:
They seem to get off on it, it is weird you're right

They say they are going to kick immigrants harder though don't they so that's good enough for quite a few.

Deleted member 4439 · Apr 17, 2021

And here we are again. Rather than ask why Labour fail time and time again, it's all the fault of the electorate, the bunch of stupid, racist wankers.

clint van damme · Apr 17, 2021

dubed said:
And here we are again. Rather than ask why Labour fail time and time again, it's all the fault of the electorate, the bunch of stupid, racist wankers.

Have you read the thread?
I've posted several times saying I accept the criticism of Labour, as have others, but what we've asked is whatis the attraction for the working class of voting tory?

Deleted member 5849 · Apr 17, 2021

Grendel said:
Possibly as I say there’s a large slice of luck - there always is

There is a certain luck involved, but then I have no real issue with people who've worked for it, earning their rewards - a friend of mine earns vastly more than me but, given the hours he puts in, I'm not surprised. People gaining money through hard work is somewhat different as well, then people being born into a life of privilege and seeking to ensure they keep that advantage. The Majors, and even Thatchers of this world, I can admire on a personal level for how they made something of themselves, even if I despise the politics. It's harder with some of the others however... and is an interesting cultural shift as well - there was a time that, although slightly patronising, the Tory grandees of the '50s and '60s felt it was their duty to govern and yes, even support people in their own way - I see less and less of the supporting now - it's demonising, and playing on fears. That's irresponsible.

But, it's as much supporting those who aren't so lucky, isn't it? Doing your best to lift them up, too?

Ian1779 said:
That’s a fair comment, so why was the general decline in ‘red wall’ seats that had been happening over the last 25 years start to reverse in 2017?

Corbyn did run a good campaign in 2017. The next election... not so good a campaign.

As mentioned, you really need a Lib-Lab pact. Politics does shift quickly though - Ashdown and Blair were all ready to set one up, but then the Tories were obliterated, so Labour didn't need to. That was, however, maybe the opportunity to go in for the kill and finish off the Tories.

Deleted member 4439 · Apr 17, 2021

clint van damme said:
Have you read the thread?
I've posted several times saying I accept the criticism of Labour, as have others, but what we've asked is whatis the attraction for the working class of voting tory?

And the answer that appears to have been concluded is, the tory voting working class are a bunch of stupid, racist wankers.

clint van damme · Apr 17, 2021

dubed said:
And the answer that appears to have been concluded is, the tory voting working class are a bunch of stupid, racist wankers.

Can't you answer the question?
Labour does not appeal to the working class snymore, but why do they vote tory?

Evo1883 · Apr 17, 2021

dubed said:
And here we are again. Rather than ask why Labour fail time and time again, it's all the fault of the electorate, the bunch of stupid, racist wankers.

Can't help themselves

Evo1883 · Apr 17, 2021

clint van damme said:
Can't you answer the question?
Labour does not appeal to the working class snymore, but why do they vote tory?

Because they don't want to vote for identity politics , they don't want to vote for the people that keep telling them how bad they are and how privileged they are , they don't want to align themselves with all the middle class activists on social media that call them bigoted Gammon flag shaggers day in day out ...

You keep asking but it's already been said ..

Don't upset the people whose votes you need to win

Most people I know cant stand Labour and many of them used to vote for them religiously

clint van damme · Apr 17, 2021

Evo1883 said:
Because they don't want to vote for identity politics , they don't want to vote for the people that keep telling them how bad they are and how privileged they are , they don't want to align themselves with all the middle class activists on social media that call them bigoted Gammon flag shaggers day in day out ...

You keep asking but it's already been said ..

Don't upset the people whose votes you need to win

Most people I know cant stand Labour and many of them used to vote for them religiously

but you don't have to vote, it's not compulsory.
I keep telling you, I accept your criticism of Labour, I can't understand why working class people vote tory.
Do you think identity politics is worse than rinsing the public purse of billions?

Evo1883 · Apr 17, 2021

clint van damme said:
but you don't have to vote, it's not compulsory.
I keep telling you, I accept your criticism of Labour, I can't understand why working class people vote tory.
Do you think identity politics is worse than rinsing the public purse of billions?

Labour are shit clint ...many have moved on and don't care about them anymore .

The ones left are hanging on by a thread

They have to be shit if the Tories are that bad but keep winning

clint van damme · Apr 17, 2021

Evo1883 said:
Labour are shit clint ...many have moved on and don't care about them anymore .

The ones left are hanging on by a thread

They have to be shit if the Tories are that bad but keep winning

everyone keeps avoiding my question, it's like the brexit thread, I'll leave it there.

Evo1883 · Apr 17, 2021

clint van damme said:
everyone keeps avoiding my question, it's like the brexit thread, I'll leave it there.

I don't feel any different today than I did 12 years ago ...bills are still too high , my wages are not much different and I can still see a doctor fast , my kids school is doing well etc etc etc ..

Where am I being severely hampered by the Tories as a working class man

Grendel · Apr 17, 2021

clint van damme said:
Can't you answer the question?
Labour does not appeal to the working class snymore, but why do they vote tory?

Because they want aspiration not drudgery

Skybluefaz · Apr 17, 2021

Evo1883 said:
I don't feel any different today than I did 12 years ago ...bills are still too high , my wages are not much different and I can still see a doctor fast , my kids school is doing well etc etc etc ..

Where am I being severely hampered by the Tories as a working class man

Easier to find a food bank under Tory rule I suppose. Every cloud.

Evo1883 · Apr 17, 2021

Skybluefaz said:
Easier to find a food bank under Tory rule I suppose. Every cloud.

Me and my missus have been through some exceptionally difficult times financially ..
And we used a food bank ONCE under a LABOUR government after we'd lost our house as it was repossessed

Labour are no fucking saints .

Also try getting rehoused under this Labour Council, you ain't got a fucking chance they scrapped the waiting list in favour of a banding system that favours everybody but normal hard working people and good families.

Yet I still vote for them because tradition etc etc

clint van damme · Apr 17, 2021

Grendel said:
Because they want aspiration not drudgery

nah. That's not it.
Not saying people aren't aspirational but that's not what the tories offer.

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