Do you want to discuss boring politics? (13 Viewers)

[clint van damme]

No ... I've already told you this 10x over .

It's not just about the manifesto ...it's not hard to grasp mate

Well maybe it is if you think like Labour do

you haven't. You've explained why not Labour, but not why tory.

 

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[Evo1883]

You say that, but that’s literally what the Tories entire shtick is “look at that gay/brown/single parent/immigrant/unemployed person of the same class as you”, I get it’s not like that on a guttural level, but I mean big picture that’s the entire game: the wealthy vs the rest.

But what could Labour do that would signal a change? Not talk about racism? Expel MPs who do?

Stop telling its traditional base how privileged they are and how bad they are then try and get their vote by offering them broadband afterwards

People care about family , jobs , education and security .

The rest of the insane nonsense belongs in the bin ...

 

[clint van damme]

The only reason I vote Labour is because of its manifesto and its history .

However I find myself annoyed with alot of things and as somebody who works with people on the lower end of the pay scale I'm telling you ...people don't appreciate being constantly pitted against eachother

Not one bit .

Labour must pull back its working class wall or its absolutely fucked

They won't though, they will continue down the current path

I honestly believe that the worse thing to happen to working class, low paid people in recent times was austerity, it literally killed thousands of them, this is why I struggle with the concept of working class people voting tory.

I can accept the turning away from Labour.

 

[clint van damme]

Stop telling its traditional base how privileged they are and how bad they are then try and get their vote by offering them broadband afterwards

People care about family , jobs , education and security .

The rest of the insane nonsense belongs in the bin ...

fucks sake mate, come on.
Security? 20k police gone, 20k police civilian support workers gone.
Education, 10 years of cuts and now Gavin Williamson in charge.
It doesn't make sense.

 

[Grendel]

I’m loving this thread

 

[Evo1883]

I honestly believe that the worse thing to happen to working class, low paid people in recent times was austerity, it literally killed thousands of them, this is why I struggle with the concept of working class people voting tory.

I can accept the turning away from Labour.

Mate I don't think whatever I say would make you understand .
I say that respectfully ofcourse

 

[shmmeee]

Stop telling its traditional base how privileged they are and how bad they are then try and get their vote by offering them broadband afterwards

But Labour aren’t doing that, people on the left are. Or at worst, some weird backbench MPs are. Starmer isn’t out there saying people are privileged.

I’ve just googled a bunch of phrases and can’t find any reference to it from him, the party, or the shadow equalities minister.

Even in the middle of BLM he was anti defund the police and caught flack for calling BLM a “moment” from the left, he never used that type of language.

I’m not saying this as some kind of gotcha, just it’s interesting to me that the language of Corbyn is still connected despite a clearly very conscious decision to move away from it. I wonder what it would take to change perceptions.

 

[Evo1883]

I’m loving this thread

You go ask the lads and lasses at cov Council who pick up the bins or the workers at cov press (liberty) why they won't vote Labour anymore .

Many of them will say what I've just said

 

[Grendel]

I honestly believe that the worse thing to happen to working class, low paid people in recent times was austerity, it literally killed thousands of them, this is why I struggle with the concept of working class people voting tory.

I can accept the turning away from Labour.

How many working class people were killed by austerity really it’s nonsense

 

[Evo1883]

But Labour aren’t doing that, people on the left are. Or at worst, some weird backbench MPs are. Starmer isn’t out there saying people are privileged.

I’ve just googled a bunch of phrases and can’t find any reference to it from him, the party, or the shadow equalities minister.

Even in the middle of BLM he was anti defund the police and caught flack for calling BLM a “moment” from the left, he never used that type of language.

I’m not saying this as some kind of gotcha, just it’s interesting to me that the language of Corbyn is still connected despite a clearly very conscious decision to move away from it. I wonder what it would take to change perceptions.

No I agree starmer isn't saying these things and he's actively trying to distance himself from this kind of nonsense... but it's going to take a lot more than him to convince people his party isn't full of it

 

[shmmeee]

How many working class people were killed by austerity really it’s nonsense

Not saying you’re wrong, but what else would’ve caused this? UK death rates have stayed the same since 2011 - Full Fact

 

[Ian1779]

Stop telling its traditional base how privileged they are and how bad they are then try and get their vote by offering them broadband afterwards

People care about family , jobs , education and security .

The rest of the insane nonsense belongs in the bin ...

You keep saying insane nonsense, yet don’t actually stipulate what any of the insane nonsense is....

 

[Evo1883]

You keep saying insane nonsense, yet don’t actually stipulate what any of the insane nonsense is....

Why would I though , I'd put it across in an un articulated way , you'd pick it apart with ease and your level of understanding will still be no better

 

[Grendel]

Not saying you’re wrong, but what else would’ve caused this? UK death rates have stayed the same since 2011 - Full Fact

Im not even being funny but if your dead your not voting and if your working class and working your not dying and you will only care about you and your family. If you are in the pits if despair and poverty you’ve given up and are disenfranchised and certainly won’t vote for someone who they think is a knight if the realm

 

[Grendel]

Frankly the Labour Party is dead - it’s ceased to exist - the zombie Tory party (which has ceased to be a Tory Party) will govern the country for eternity and this thread proves it

 

[shmmeee]

Im not even being funny but if your dead your not voting and if your working class and working your not dying and you will only care about you and your family. If you are in the pits if despair and poverty you’ve given up and are disenfranchised and certainly won’t vote for someone who they think is a knight if the realm

I’m not sure what that’s got to do with the question of whether austerity killed people. That mortality stat is the best evidence I’ve seen for it.

I don’t disagree with anything you say, if you’ve somehow got the impression that I love IDPol and modern overly online left wing activism you’ve not been reading much of what I post in threads like these.

Labour’s decline started when mass employment and hence unions decline did. We lost not only a link to the average working man, but a pipeline of pragmatic, working class, effective communicators. None of this is something I haven’t posted on here many times.

But none of that explains why you turn to a party that quite clearly fucking hates you and just wants to line their pockets. It just explains why the alternative is fucking awful.

Fuck me “knight of the realm” is the issue is it? I’ll just vote for the Etonian related to the fucking Queen!

 

[clint van damme]

How many working class people were killed by austerity really it’s nonsense

who knows, there are claims of 120k, I doubt that's true but I know there was something like 45k excess deaths during one phase of it, (think it was a two or three year period), there's all sorts of reports linking cuts to deaths including suicide due the benefits being either cut or withdrawn, there are loads of examples given out in reports by disabled charities.
I doubt the DWP suppressed the report into suicides linked to benefit cuts for nothing

 

[clint van damme]

Frankly the Labour Party is dead - it’s ceased to exist - the zombie Tory party (which has ceased to be a Tory Party) will govern the country for eternity and this thread proves it

so you don't think the Northern Alliance party has a chance then?!

 

[Ian1779]

Why would I though , I'd put it across in an un articulated way , you'd pick it apart with ease and your level of understanding will still be no better

But I actually would like to understand, and not interested in picking apart your points. I have a mum whose pension is going to be short falled when she hits retirement age. When Labour were campaigning for the WASPI women she said it was stupid as it was unrealistic to expect to get what she was entitled to. I can’t fathom that kind of rationale.

 

[clint van damme]

Why would I though , I'd put it across in an un articulated way , you'd pick it apart with ease and your level of understanding will still be no better

not at all, to me you've made it clear what Labour have done wrong, and it's valid enough, what you haven't made clear is what the tories have done right, or what you think other people have perceived they've done right as you yourself voted Labour.

 

[Evo1883]

But I actually would like to understand, and not interested in picking apart your points. I have a mum whose pension is going to be short falled when she hits retirement age. When Labour were campaigning for the WASPI women she said it was stupid as it was unrealistic to expect to get what she was entitled to. I can’t fathom that kind of rationale.

I think this kind of chat can only be really put across over a beer or 2 ... maybe if the forum ever meet up we will discuss it ..

I confidently speak bollocks after a beer

I'm not good at putting things across in writing , I'd have got straight A's if I could talk my way through my exams trust me lol

 

[shmmeee]

But I actually would like to understand, and not interested in picking apart your points. I have a mum whose pension is going to be short falled when she hits retirement age. When Labour were campaigning for the WASPI women she said it was stupid as it was unrealistic to expect to get what she was entitled to. I can’t fathom that kind of rationale.

You can’t deny that a large amount of left wing activists give off the impression of hating anyone who isn’t university educated middle class or non-white/straight. And a fair few MPs and public figures make their name playing to those same people.

There’s a duplicity about it too, as you claim to be for the working man but don’t like the working man, just know what’s best for him. The Tories may be cheating toff cunts who would sell their granny, but at least you know where you stand kinda thing.

 

[shmmeee]

Someone once said to me “it’s better to be kind than right” and I think that sums up a lot of the lefts communication issue.

 

[Evo1883]

You can’t deny that a large amount of left wing activists give off the impression of hating anyone who isn’t university educated middle class or non-white/straight. And a fair few MPs and public figures make their name playing to those same people.

There’s a duplicity about it too, as you claim to be for the working man but don’t like the working man, just know what’s best for him. The Tories may be cheating toff cunts who would sell their granny, but at least you know where you stand kinda thing.

See I couldn't have wrote this

 

[shmmeee]

See I couldn't have wrote this

Am I close?

 

[clint van damme]

See I couldn't have wrote this

And there's a lot of truth in it, but I'm a working class man and I have absolutely nothing in common with the tory party, they have contempt for me and do not have my best interests at heart.

 

[Evo1883]

Am I close?

This is how many people feel amongst other things yes

 

[Grendel]

You can’t deny that a large amount of left wing activists give off the impression of hating anyone who isn’t university educated middle class or non-white/straight. And a fair few MPs and public figures make their name playing to those same people.

There’s a duplicity about it too, as you claim to be for the working man but don’t like the working man, just know what’s best for him. The Tories may be cheating toff cunts who would sell their granny, but at least you know where you stand kinda thing.

In what way was Margaret Thatcher or John Major cheating toff cunts?

 

[Evo1883]

In what way was Margaret Thatcher or John Major cheating toff cunts?

Well I mean they were posh ...I could have rested my bollocks on thatchers top lip

 

[Grendel]

Well I mean they are posh ...I could have rested my bollocks on thatchers top lip

She was working class from Grantham - Gove is from a very working class background as is Patel

 

[Evo1883]

She was working class from Grantham - Gove is from a very working class background as is Patel

 

[Grendel]

Google them and their background

 

[shmmeee]

In what way was Margaret Thatcher or John Major cheating toff cunts?

They were Tories

In all seriousness you’ve just shown the problem exactly with ID politics. Their characteristics don’t matter, the impact of their policies and the people who’s interests they work for do. Are you seriously telling me their cabinets were full of the working class? That their main policy ideas came from the working class? That the people with power and wealth embedded in this country were against them? Of course not, so who gives a shit that they went to a Grammar instead of Eton?

Also, I didn’t even say that, I was quoting an imaginary person.

 

[Ian1779]

You can’t deny that a large amount of left wing activists give off the impression of hating anyone who isn’t university educated middle class or non-white/straight. And a fair few MPs and public figures make their name playing to those same people.

There’s a duplicity about it too, as you claim to be for the working man but don’t like the working man, just know what’s best for him. The Tories may be cheating toff cunts who would sell their granny, but at least you know where you stand kinda thing.

You say about left-wing activism, but recently we’ve seen people raising concerns about violence towards women, the recent bill the Tories are trying to push through, and more generally concerns around climate change. Are they really things that Labour have to distance themselves from? And if so then what is left for them to stand for other than minimally different governance?

 

[shmmeee]

Google them and their background

Grendel coming out for diversity quotas now.