Do you want to discuss boring politics? (12 Viewers)

[mmttww]

I think we can do more , and I dont vote reform

I wouldn't care if you did, doesn't come into it. Labour and the Tories made a big show of talking about immigration to keep possible Reform voters onside. Just saying it's their agenda and they've got everyone dancing to that tune, which for me, is pointless. Rather someone just got the f*ck on with dealing with the underlying root causes.

 

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[Ian1779]

Long story short , how can people suggest migrants / refugees are not being housed first when entire new build housing areas are being taken up by them and they've not been here that long ?

The detail that we don’t know could be vital in answering the question.
Is the housing sold off to private landlords that will house migrants for a tidy sum from the local authorities?
What is the proportion of social housing in there - and what is the need or priority they are working on?
What schemes are in place to actively house young or new families and make these properties accessible?

I refer back to my comment earlier, you can build pop up estates of housing, but if English families can’t afford to buy, or gather a deposit then it’s going to be picked up by people that don’t care who lives in it if it turns a profit.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

But in our lifetime the levels have become unsustainable and out of control , we allowed that to happen , so we can make it unhappen

Staying on the same path but trying to dig out of an ever filling grave isnt the answer

It’s not good for a country to rely so heavily on foreign labour. To change it though will mean a long term commitment to improving pay and working conditions while also giving more thought to state education and workplace training.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

The immediate answer is to control how many people come here to such an extent it gives the country's infrastructure time to catch up whilst still allowing people here to work key jobs and learn

In an ideal situation yes, but the fact is if we did that then you're going to see the NHS collapse under the pressure and old and vulnerable people are going to not have the care and dignity they deserve because there will be nowhere near enough staff to care for them (there already isn't).

Like I say the only way you're going to have even half a chance of filling this jobs is to pay them a fuck ton more money. But then you've got the amount that's going to cost the taxpayer. Before even getting into the fact much of it is now becoming private sector who sure as hell aren't going to pay people more in the interest of profit margins.

There really is no easy answer and while you may talk about the Tories and Labour talking about immigration to talk tough and keep people away from Reform, people haven't realised Reform are pretty much exactly the same.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

They don't always, many developers get round those requirements in any case.

In my opinion the country needs to build estates of 100% houses at social rents at scale.

Trouble with that is that you tend to find those places end up being very very deprived and full of problems. Hence why they try and mix the social and owned houses so there is (in theory) more self regulation.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

I wouldn't care if you did, doesn't come into it. Labour and the Tories made a big show of talking about immigration to keep possible Reform voters onside. Just saying it's their agenda and they've got everyone dancing to that tune, which for me, is pointless. Rather someone just got the f*ck on with dealing with the underlying root causes.

As I said above, Reform would likely be no different. Their last manifesto pretty much said as much. And if they did take any action none of it would be effective as they'd go for the easy targets, not the complex root causes.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

The detail that we don’t know could be vital in answering the question.
Is the housing sold off to private landlords that will house migrants for a tidy sum from the local authorities?
What is the proportion of social housing in there - and what is the need or priority they are working on?
What schemes are in place to actively house young or new families and make these properties accessible?

I refer back to my comment earlier, you can build pop up estates of housing, but if English families can’t afford to buy, or gather a deposit then it’s going to be picked up by people that don’t care who lives in it if it turns a profit.

I think Brits also need to accept they themselves have been part of the problem.

Much of the social housing was sold off decades ago, but when those people have died/gone into care and the house gone on the market how many of the families of those people have cared about who that house got sold too? It's highest offer, and the people who are going to be able to offer the highest are those intending to use it for business purposes as they can whack the rents up to cover the extra outlay.

Around my nan's old area so many of the houses that were once full of owner occupiers with families have become private rents or even HMO's once those people have died. Those that inherit the house don't live there so why should they give a fuck - it's just a saleable asset to them.

 

[fernandopartridge]

Trouble with that is that you tend to find those places end up being very very deprived and full of problems. Hence why they try and mix the social and owned houses so there is (in theory) more self regulation.

They're only very deprived because after the 1970s government policy moved from housing for anybody who wanted it to a "needs based" prioritisation, in the context of right to buy.

 

[The Philosopher]

Declining birth rates is the driver for increased immigration.

1.4 births per couple means 14 children for every 20, say 33 year olds.

extended:

for every 20, 66 year olds there are 14, 33 year olds and approximately 10 babies.

Back of envelope slide rule, 20 66 year olds leave workforce, approx 12, say 20 year olds to join workforce pool. Gap has been filled with immigration.

Alternative is a shortage of working age to support aging population. Shortage of workers = over demand = unsustainable inflation = interest rates hike to counter = economic disarray.

We need immigrants. We need workers. We don’t need chancers and health tourists and people jumping the queue.

Immigrants welcome. Send your CV and criminal record check first and join the queue and respect British values.

Don’t come if your only intent is to harass and sponge.

It’s not complicated.

 

[Captain Dart]

It’s not good for a country to rely so heavily on foreign labour. To change it though will mean a long term commitment to improving pay and working conditions while also giving more thought to state education and workplace training.

Besides that we are stripping poor countries of people they have trained. I don't think the labour pool is too small here but for various reasons there are too many people who turn their nose up at socially rewarding jobs. There is also an education bar to some jobs, perfectly capable and motivated people can be excluded because they are not suited to getting a degree.

 

[chiefdave]

The part missing here though is we need immigrants for certain jobs that the British population just does not want to do.

I see friends kids complaining they can't get any work while I see places in the service or care sectors unable to fill vacancies.

We either get the people already here into those jobs or we need to bring people in to fill them.

Which then brings you on to the pay and conditions in those jobs which are no doubt a large part of the reason they aren't being filled by Brits.

 

[Ccfcisparks]

The part missing here though is we need immigrants for certain jobs that the British population just does not want to do.

I see friends kids complaining they can't get any work while I see places in the service or care sectors unable to fill vacancies.

We either get the people already here into those jobs or we need to bring people in to fill them.

Which then brings you on to the pay and conditions in those jobs which are no doubt a large part of the reason they aren't being filled by Brits.

Theres British people, out of work, who feel they are entitled to a certain kind of job. They are too proud to do those jobs which are usually filled by immigrants.

 

[Grendel]

The part missing here though is we need immigrants for certain jobs that the British population just does not want to do.

I see friends kids complaining they can't get any work while I see places in the service or care sectors unable to fill vacancies.

We either get the people already here into those jobs or we need to bring people in to fill them.

Which then brings you on to the pay and conditions in those jobs which are no doubt a large part of the reason they aren't being filled by Brits.

I assume then they are financial comfortable not bothering to work?

 

[Captain Dart]

Declining birth rates is the driver for increased immigration.

1.4 births per couple means 14 children for every 20, say 33 year olds.

extended:

for every 20, 66 year olds there are 14, 33 year olds and approximately 10 babies.

Back of envelope slide rule, 20 66 year olds leave workforce, approx 12, say 20 year olds to join workforce pool. Gap has been filled with immigration.

Alternative is a shortage of working age to support aging population. Shortage of workers = over demand = unsustainable inflation = interest rates hike to counter = economic disarray.

We need immigrants. We need workers. We don’t need chancers and health tourists and people jumping the queue.

Immigrants welcome. Send your CV and criminal record check first and join the queue and respect British values.

Don’t come if your only intent is to harass and sponge.

It’s not complicated.

Japan are trying to overcome the problem with technological approaches.

The real question is why are birth rates falling everywhere, particuarly in well developed countries.

 

[chiefdave]

Theres British people, out of work, who feel they are entitled to a certain kind of job. They are too proud to do those jobs which are usually filled by immigrants.

Just got back from Romania, pretty much all the service workers there were Romanian. If the native population is prepared to do the jobs you're less reliant on immigrants

Having said that one of our clients used to be a chain of luxary hotels (we're talking £400+ a night). The workers were almost exclusively Eastern European and were treated appallingly. On minimum wage, required to live onsite in terrible conditions, and the hotels were in the middle of nowhere, for which rent was deducted. Fed leftovers from the restaurants from which further deductions were taken. If you took one look there's no way you'd take a job there or allow your child to work in those conditions

But if you talk about improving employee pay and conditions the immediate response is it will cause the economy to collapse, inflation to surge etc

 

[The Philosopher]

Well since ive been in my street (6 years ) every family that have moved out has been replaced by foreign born nationals with families .

The problem is the way housing is prioritised , people with families are generally classed as high priority because they are homeless and sometimes living in crowded conditions so will love to band A and top priority for housing .

The new housing estate in Willenhall near the glade seems to be majority African and eastern european .

There is no list anymore , its a bullshit priority system that definitely favours migrants

It’s the woke left who have corrupted the immigration system either by ignorance or design or by advocating lunacy so they look good in front of their similarly sad friends.

This City has a proud history of immigration.

In modern history, first came the Irish, who helped build the city during its huge boom post Victorian age, through to pre war and a further influx post war to rebuild.

Look at the architecture, Coundon, Chapelfields etc and compare to parts of Dublin.

Many of us here have an Irish granny or their gf does.

Hard working Irish immigrants contributed hugely to this City. The fact they had large families is also contributory.

Next waves, Windrush and Ugandan Asians who also contributed to the unique culture of this city (2 Tone, great curry) and also hard working.

Next waves, other Asian and latterly hardworking polish folks.

The issue now? Immigrants arriving on boats not contributing and a load of virtue signalling pillocks sticking up for them.

 

[The Philosopher]

Theres British people, out of work, who feel they are entitled to a certain kind of job. They are too proud to do those jobs which are usually filled by immigrants.

Lot of British people with “mental health” issues who can’t work. Some just need to get over themselves, some have genuine issues.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Theres British people, out of work, who feel they are entitled to a certain kind of job. They are too proud to do those jobs which are usually filled by immigrants.

But when you have developed a system over generations telling people there is no society and the only important thing is money and possessions is it hardly surprising they don't want to do low paid, menial and often physically and emotionally demanding jobs. We're also telling kids to become educated and then wonder why they say they don't want to do jobs like this.

This a problem of our own making because we don't value the right things.

 

[The Philosopher]

As I said above, Reform would likely be no different. Their last manifesto pretty much said as much. And if they did take any action none of it would be effective as they'd go for the easy targets, not the complex root causes.

Where’s your evidence?

 

[Grendel]

But when you have developed a system over generations telling people there is no society and the only important thing is money and possessions is it hardly surprising they don't want to do low paid, menial and often physically and emotionally demanding jobs. We're also telling kids to become educated and then wonder why they say they don't want to do jobs like this.

This a problem of our own making because we don't value the right things.

What are they living on then?

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Japan are trying to overcome the problem with technological approaches.

The real question is why are birth rates falling everywhere, particuarly in well developed countries.
View attachment 43004

I'd say a big part of that is having an economy where most people are struggling to get by even though both partners are working (often long hours) and can't afford to buy a house will there being very few social houses available so you're at the mercy of a profit driven private sector.

If you're worried about the roof over your head then you're hardly going to think the best thing to do is add a child to the mix.

We're also so focused on money and possessions and kids don't fit in with that ethos.

There are other factors as well, such as people being more aware of their own physical and mental health and the strain children can put on that.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Japan are trying to overcome the problem with technological approaches.

The real question is why are birth rates falling everywhere, particuarly in well developed countries.
View attachment 43004

It’s falling because of economic reasons. Having a child is simply becoming unaffordable. Universal childcare would be a huge help and would also allow women to return to full time work sooner.

 

[fernandopartridge]

It’s falling because of economic reasons. Having a child is simply becoming unaffordable. Universal childcare would be a huge help and would also allow women to return to full time work sooner.

That helps a bit but then again doesn't. It is exceptionally difficult to bring up kids and have both parents working full time, regardless of whether it is paid for or not. That is the problem, it's not childcare, it's that both parents must work because the cost of living, in particular accommodation, is completely out of control.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Where’s your evidence?

Well, firstly their last manifesto, which stated they wouldn't be limiting immigration for certain sectors like the NHS and social care, which makes up a large amount of immigration.

Secondly, they would fail because even if they did start deporting people the issues that people face aren't solely affected by that issue. As much as some people want to believe getting rid of the immigrants will solve the problems just a little bit of digging beneath the surface tells you it won't. I will use Brexit as a precedent. Remember when Farage told us that was going to fix all the problems? Only it didn't, because it wasn't addressing the actual problems.

So while I can't have evidence unless Farage gets in, I feel very comfortable I'd be proved right if he did and for you to bookmark this and bring it back up should it happen.

 

[The Philosopher]

Well, firstly their last manifesto, which stated they wouldn't be limiting immigration for certain sectors like the NHS and social care, which makes up a large amount of immigration.

Secondly, they would fail because even if they did start deporting people the issues that people face aren't solely affected by that issue. As much as some people want to believe getting rid of the immigrants will solve the problems just a little bit of digging beneath the surface tells you it won't. I will use Brexit as a precedent. Remember when Farage told us that was going to fix all the problems? Only it didn't, because it wasn't addressing the actual problems.

So while I can't have evidence unless Farage gets in, I feel very comfortable I'd be proved right if he did and for you to bookmark this and bring it back up should it happen.

So zero evidence, just your opinion.

 

[chiefdave]

Lot of British people with “mental health” issues who can’t work. Some just need to get over themselves, some have genuine issues.

Given that mental health services are on their knees after years of austerity how do you propose we establish who needs to 'get over themselves' and who has genuine issues.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

So zero evidence, just your opinion.

An opinion backed up by written party policies and previous situations where Farage claimed to have the answers only it turned out he didn't and it just made things worse.

 

[chiefdave]

I'd say a big part of that is having an economy where most people are struggling to get by even though both partners are working (often long hours) and can't afford to buy a house will there being very few social houses available so you're at the mercy of a profit driven private sector.

Bingo, this is also a large part in why young people are reluctant to take jobs with shit pay & conditions. They think what's the point in killing myself for a job I'll hate when I still won't be able to afford a decent standard of living and that then feeds in to the high level of mental health issues that generation reports.

 

[mmttww]

So zero evidence, just your opinion.

a bit like your assertion that the "woke left" is responsible for the immigration levels.

Nevermind that the Tories were in power for more than a decade and nowt changed.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

They're only very deprived because after the 1970s government policy moved from housing for anybody who wanted it to a "needs based" prioritisation, in the context of right to buy.

There is some truth in that. But how many houses would we need to build to be able to give housing on a first come first served basis rather than needs based. And how long would that take?

 

[PVA]

The issue now? Immigrants arriving on boats not contributing and a load of virtue signalling pillocks sticking up for them.

People crossing the channel on small boats really isn't the issue though is it. As much as many people love to think it is.

 

[fernandopartridge]

There is some truth in that. But how many houses would we need to build to be able to give housing on a first come first served basis rather than needs based. And how long would that take?

It would obviously take some time but that's not a reason not to do it

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

That helps a bit but then again doesn't. It is exceptionally difficult to bring up kids and have both parents working full time, regardless of whether it is paid for or not. That is the problem, it's not childcare, it's that both parents must work because the cost of living, in particular accommodation, is completely out of control.

There is that also yes, but women undoubtedly stay part time for longer because of childcare issues.

 

[SBAndy]

There is that also yes, but women undoubtedly stay part time for longer because of childcare issues.

And also the cost:benefit. My partner is going back to work next month after 12 months’ maternity. We’re in the fortunate position that we get 15 hours free childcare per week (universal thing now from 9mths) so she’s going back for 15 hours a week. If she were to go back full-time it might make us an extra £200 per month after you deduct the additional childcare costs. Is it worth slogging for £2.50 an hour beyond the free allowance?

 

[napolimp]

It’s the woke left who have corrupted the immigration system either by ignorance or design or by advocating lunacy so they look good in front of their similarly sad friends.

This City has a proud history of immigration.

In modern history, first came the Irish, who helped build the city during its huge boom post Victorian age, through to pre war and a further influx post war to rebuild.

Look at the architecture, Coundon, Chapelfields etc and compare to parts of Dublin.

Many of us here have an Irish granny or their gf does.

Hard working Irish immigrants contributed hugely to this City. The fact they had large families is also contributory.

Next waves, Windrush and Ugandan Asians who also contributed to the unique culture of this city (2 Tone, great curry) and also hard working.

Next waves, other Asian and latterly hardworking polish folks.

The issue now? Immigrants arriving on boats not contributing and a load of virtue signalling pillocks sticking up for them.

Is that the attitude that the "local" population had towards those groups back in the days you're talking about, when they were coming over?