Do you want to discuss boring politics? (13 Viewers)

Deleted member 4439 · Jun 22, 2021

Ian1779 said:
There are so many reasons, poor personal experience of education themselves is often a big one.

One should perhaps look at the positive reasons as why many other ethnic groups do better as to understand the negative reasons why other groups do not. Whilst it may seem stereotypical, from my conservations with mates and colleagues, second and third generation families of immigrants very strongly retain the mindset that education and attainment is the way to break through the glass doors of systemic racism. From another perspective, it's possible that generations of post-war prosperity and privilege has meant that white families have tended to place less value on education, and have been accordingly left behind.

Personally, I was born into a caring and upright white working class family in which doing well in education was almost seen as a prize rather than as a necessity.

Just thoughts.

shmmeee · Jun 22, 2021

Evo1883 said:
The chair of the report on BBC news now , a Jewish immigrant .. says it can't be based on poverty or class because children of other ethnic backgrounds are doing better under similar circumstances.

BTW, I'm not pretending to even know about all this , just relaying Information.
My girls do pretty well at school ,and I know many kids that don't and I know their parents ... so I see what I see and think what I think about that.

Problem with this is a) it clearly is based on class. The white boys at Eton are fine and b) immigrants are self selecting and will value education more. It’s clearly a cultural issue but no politician would ever say that.

Brighton Sky Blue · Jun 22, 2021

All interested in this topic should read ‘Boys Don’t Try?’, written by a pair of white male teachers and packed full of research driven ideas to change the way boys are treated at school. Probably the most important teaching book I’ve read since I started and totally changed how I approach things in a classroom.

shmmeee · Jun 22, 2021

Brighton Sky Blue said:
All interested in this topic should read ‘Boys Don’t Try?’, written by a pair of white male teachers and packed full of research driven ideas to change the way boys are treated at school. Probably the most important teaching book I’ve read since I started and totally changed how I approach things in a classroom.

Definitely want to have a look at that. Can you give us the cliff notes?

Brighton Sky Blue · Jun 22, 2021

shmmeee said:
Definitely want to have a look at that. Can you give us the cliff notes?

Discussion of the ‘Golem’ vs ‘Pygmalion’ effects working to positively reinforce low or high self confidence

Competition in the classroom being quite damaging for those who ‘lose’ and especially those finishing near the bottom

Recognition that boys would rather not attempt something instead of putting effort in then failing

Appreciate that boys will often have to balance being seen to be academic with being more laddish

The gender of the teacher matters much less than the quality, demand higher expectations and it will be returned

Loads more good stuff in there, highly recommended.

Philosoraptor · Jun 22, 2021

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Discussion of the ‘Golem’ vs ‘Pygmalion’ effects working to positively reinforce low or high self confidence

Competition in the classroom being quite damaging for those who ‘lose’ and especially those finishing near the bottom

Recognition that boys would rather not attempt something instead of putting effort in then failing

Appreciate that boys will often have to balance being seen to be academic with being more laddish

The gender of the teacher matters much less than the quality, demand higher expectations and it will be returned

Loads more good stuff in there, highly recommended.

Just in case you haven't seen this BSB.

I guess you already have.

Brighton Sky Blue · Jun 22, 2021

Philosorapter said:
Just in case you haven't seen this BSB.

I guess you already have.

Haven’t watched in years but yes. Main thing for me is for people to be allowed to be comfortable being themselves. But the pressure from peers and society is very real

shmmeee · Jun 22, 2021

Peer pressure works both ways though. My daughter is a middle of the road kid academically. That’s why I pushed for her to go to a better school as she’ll go with the centre of gravity.

I do wonder if Blair’s “choice” agenda has lead to concentrations of “good” and “not so good” kids with little chance for people to see good behaviour and attitudes modelling by their peers. Short of a lottery system for school places not sure how you fix it though as it’s a product of the housing market at much as anything els.

Brighton Sky Blue · Jun 22, 2021

shmmeee said:
Peer pressure works both ways though. My daughter is a middle of the road kid academically. That’s why I pushed for her to go to a better school as she’ll go with the centre of gravity.

I do wonder if Blair’s “choice” agenda has lead to concentrations of “good” and “not so good” kids with little chance for people to see good behaviour and attitudes modelling by their peers. Short of a lottery system for school places not sure how you fix it though as it’s a product of the housing market at much as anything els.

In those cases you need teachers who understand that kind of background but don’t expect less from the kids. PK is excellent for that, fantastic school

shmmeee · Jun 22, 2021

Brighton Sky Blue said:
In those cases you need teachers who understand that kind of background but don’t expect less from the kids. PK is excellent for that, fantastic school

Yeah good teachers solve all. I just wonder how practical it is to expect every teacher to be excellent.

Brighton Sky Blue · Jun 22, 2021

shmmeee said:
Yeah good teachers solve all. I just wonder how practical it is to expect every teacher to be excellent.

Give them a smaller class to manage for starters

Deleted member 4439 · Jun 22, 2021

shmmeee said:
Yeah good teachers solve all. I just wonder how practical it is to expect every teacher to be excellent.

Do they, or is this as much, indeed much more about parents than teachers?

Admittedly speaking from personal experience, and without a gauge at the time to say what a good teacher was, I went to a school with good teachers but who were never going to be able level up what was in front of them instead of the system level down.

shmmeee · Jun 22, 2021

dubed said:
Do they, or is this as much, indeed much more about parents than teachers?

Admittedly speaking from personal experience, and without a gauge at the time to say what a good teacher was, I went to a school with good teachers but who were never going to be able level up what was in front of them instead of the system level down.

I mean a great teacher can have massive impact on the right kid. And a good teacher can achieve above the average. Similarly I’ve seen whole schools in derived areas have a measurable impact short term before staff burnout/lack of funds/trouble cohort breaks them.

Agree completely that systemic effects are far more impactful and IMO more importantly more persistent than anything a single school or teacher can implement.

When picking for my girls I tried to go for the cohort of kids over the school or head as those both change over a five year secondary experience, but the kids don’t. I lost that fight, cos divorce, but all else being equal I’d have used my above average earnings to get them into a school with a generally higher performing cohort. Which is my right as a parent, but as a system leads to ghettoisation.

Education is a fascinating problem space encompassing almost all of politics. Love discussing it (at a distance, with no marking).

Ian1779 · Jun 22, 2021

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Give them a smaller class to manage for starters

People underestimate what a huge impact this could have.

wingy · Jun 22, 2021

Really depends what the regimen is like at home,then all the other variables.

shmmeee · Jun 22, 2021

Ian1779 said:
People underestimate what a huge impact this could have.

Honesty, cut class sizes below twenty and watch our kids fly. Never happen though, you’d basically have to double the schools budget plus a shit ton of capital investment. So government will just tinker round the edges.

Ian1779 · Jun 22, 2021

shmmeee said:
Honesty, cut class sizes below twenty and watch our kids fly. Never happen though, you’d basically have to double the schools budget plus a shit ton of capital investment. So government will just tinker round the edges.

One of the most obvious differences between state and independent education, and in ‘theory’ the easiest to replicate.

Grendel · Jun 22, 2021

Ian1779 said:
One of the most obvious differences between state and independent education, and in ‘theory’ the easiest to replicate.

or have grammar schools

Ian1779 · Jun 22, 2021

Grendel said:
or have grammar schools

Surely it’s less cost to bulk up school budgets to allow for smaller class sizes than just build different schools?

shmmeee · Jun 22, 2021

Grendel said:
or have grammar schools

Would just worsen the issue at hand. Middle class kids get to move close to schools and get tutored through the 11+ and the majority of white British kids end up at schools with no one with any work ethic or academic skill set around their peer group.

Research shows grammars negatively impact the surrounding schools. Unless you’ve got an equivalent for working class kids (and IMO test later in life, say 14) it doesn’t solve anything.

shmmeee · Jun 22, 2021

What about summer schools or after school tutoring paid for by the state targeted at specific groups through the benefits system?

Let’s be blunt, the issue is when the kids go home more than when they’re at school. Offering free wraparound that included homework help and tutoring would help working parents and give disadvantaged kids some of the advantages their richer peers get.

shmmeee · Jun 22, 2021

Good thread on African immigrants attainment, most relevant posts:

Deleted member 4439 · Jun 22, 2021

shmmeee said:
Good thread on African immigrants attainment, most relevant posts:

Whilst it may be true that there's a preponderance of second and third gens who product of parents who hold overseas degree (though is that a suspicion or fact?), I'm not quite sure what the point is that's being made, unless it's simply that these families are more academically-minded (rather than being pooled from a higher intelligence group). What do you think he is saying, exactly?

Brighton Sky Blue · Jun 22, 2021

shmmeee said:
Would just worsen the issue at hand. Middle class kids get to move close to schools and get tutored through the 11+ and the majority of white British kids end up at schools with no one with any work ethic or academic skill set around their peer group.

Research shows grammars negatively impact the surrounding schools. Unless you’ve got an equivalent for working class kids (and IMO test later in life, say 14) it doesn’t solve anything.

Of course G laughs at what longitudinal research has shown to be the case

shmmeee · Jun 22, 2021

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Of course G laughs at what longitudinal research has shown to be the case

Im not sure how even on the face of it “pull all the smart kids” is going to raise attainment.

dubed said:
Whilst it may be true that there's a preponderance of second and third gens who product of parents who hold overseas degree (though is that a suspicion or fact?), I'm not quite sure what the point is that's being made, unless it's simply that these families are more academically-minded (rather than being pooled from a higher intelligence group). What do you think he is saying, exactly?

He’s saying that immigrants aren’t a random sample of a population. You emigrate because you want to better your life and that translates into expectations and aspirations for your kids. The point about the degrees is that they don’t show up in the stats clearly, same for FSM. Basically the immigrant kids who are doing well have the same kind of parents as the British kids who are doing well.

Not in that thread but I’ve seen evidence that if you subsection “Asian” and “African” you can see clear groups that do well (Chinese, Nigerian for example) where immigrants tend to be more middle class and groups where they don’t (eg Bangladesh, Caribbean). And that that maps to educational attainment.

SBAndy · Jun 22, 2021

shmmeee said:
Would just worsen the issue at hand. Middle class kids get to move close to schools and get tutored through the 11+ and the majority of white British kids end up at schools with no one with any work ethic or academic skill set around their peer group.

Research shows grammars negatively impact the surrounding schools. Unless you’ve got an equivalent for working class kids (and IMO test later in life, say 14) it doesn’t solve anything.

Restructure of schools, have your primary school run to Y4, middle school Y5-Y8 and high school Y9-Y13. Can then tailor the high schools to a broader range of skills, vocational enterprises, etc. Know very little about the ‘industry’ but would that work?

Skybluefaz · Jun 23, 2021

Fucking weird mate.

Sky Blue Pete · Jun 23, 2021

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Discussion of the ‘Golem’ vs ‘Pygmalion’ effects working to positively reinforce low or high self confidence

Competition in the classroom being quite damaging for those who ‘lose’ and especially those finishing near the bottom

Recognition that boys would rather not attempt something instead of putting effort in then failing

Appreciate that boys will often have to balance being seen to be academic with being more laddish

The gender of the teacher matters much less than the quality, demand higher expectations and it will be returned

Loads more good stuff in there, highly recommended.

That sounds inspiring

shmmeee · Jun 23, 2021

SBAndy said:
Restructure of schools, have your primary school run to Y4, middle school Y5-Y8 and high school Y9-Y13. Can then tailor the high schools to a broader range of skills, vocational enterprises, etc. Know very little about the ‘industry’ but would that work?

Very similar to what I’d like to see. I’d shift it around a bit though. Primary to Y5, 6-9 middle 10-13. I think teaching 11 year olds and 18 year olds in the same building is nuts. Couldn’t believe it when Leicestershire got rid of middle schools. I don’t know anyone involved in them that doesn’t think They’re a good idea.

shmmeee · Jun 23, 2021

Government getting rid of Channel 4, sure that’s nothing to do with their news output and calling Boris Johnson a liar.

Government also getting school kids to sing a creepy nationalistic song.

We slide further to North Korea: no criticism of dear leader, propaganda over education in school.

Sky Blue Pete · Jun 23, 2021

shmmeee said:
Government getting rid of Channel 4, sure that’s nothing to do with their news output and calling Boris Johnson a liar.

Government also getting school kids to sing a creepy nationalistic song.

We slide further to North Korea: no criticism of dear leader, propaganda over education in school.

Song is creepy

skybluetony176 · Jun 23, 2021

Skybluefaz said:
Fucking weird mate.

That’s got to be a wind up. It will be the mandatory displaying pictures of the supreme leader in all businesses next followed by the Johnson youth.

skybluetony176 · Jun 23, 2021

They’ll be getting children to sing two world wars and one World Cup on July 30th next.

Skybluefaz · Jun 23, 2021

skybluetony176 said:
That’s got to be a wind up. It will be the mandatory displaying pictures of the supreme leader in all businesses next followed by the Johnson youth.

Totally legit, it's so weird. If alarm bells aren't going off now for the reasons Shmmeee states will they ever?

shmmeee · Jun 23, 2021

I mean let’s be honest. They aren’t about to start opening gulags because they’re cringingly crap. But generally this sort of stuff doesn’t sit with me and feels distinctly unbritish. Something the Yanks or the French would do.

Do you want to discuss boring politics? (13 Viewers)

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