Damien Collins MP to mention City in parliament (3 Viewers)

[italiahorse]

Tesco may not have paid that much for the land had it not been part of a bigger development project and vision.


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They might have if the Arena was a further extension of the retail park. I guess they get little footfall from the stadium other than the 25 matchdays.

 

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[Jack Griffin]

Same subject to be discussed on Jeremy Vine's Radio 2 programme in the next hour. Calls invited.

You can listen to the program here.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03y0gk0

1hr 09mins in

 

[Broken Hearted Sky Blue]

Tesco may not have paid that much for the land had it not been part of a bigger development project and vision.


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They wouldn't have cared less

 

[Jack Griffin]

Tesco may not have paid that much for the land had it not been part of a bigger development project and vision.

Correct, the arena park probably gets as much trade as the city centre these days, it is a roaring success and has been expanding constantly.
Now, who had that vision was it BR/CCC/Tesco or what?

 

[stupot07]

Correct, the arena park probably gets as much trade as the city centre these days, it is a roaring success and has been expanding constantly.
Now, who had that vision was it BR/CCC/Tesco or what?

The club and CCC I believe.


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[skybluetony176]

So we have learnt today that an MP from Folkestone understands the plight of the Coventry supporters while the MEP for Coventry and Warwickshire is clueless on the matter.

 

[Jack Griffin]

Would the council have invested £54m without Tesco? Yes or no will do.

Don't be such a simplistic arse, the whole deal was a package neither could exist without the other.

The council put in £33M (£12M cap & seed investment plus £21M loan to be repaid).
- this is documented here http://moderngov.coventry.gov.uk/Da...08 - Arena Construction Completion Report.pdf
They also invested all the profit from the land deal (~£59M-£24M = £34M)

If that hadn't been done Arena Park & the Ricoh would still be a pipe dream and the Gas Towers would still be a scar on the face of the City.

 

[stupot07]

Don't be such a simplistic arse, the whole deal was a package neither could exist without the other.

The council put in £33M (£12M cap & seed investment plus £21M loan to be repaid).
- this is documented here http://moderngov.coventry.gov.uk/Da...08 - Arena Construction Completion Report.pdf
They also invested all the profit from the land deal (~£59M-£24M = £34M)

If that hadn't been done Arena Park & the Ricoh would still be a pipe dream and the Gas Towers would still be a scar on the face of the City.

But the £21m loan was repaid when ACL paid £21m for the 50 year leasehold.


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[Grendel]

Don't be such a simplistic arse, the whole deal was a package neither could exist without the other.

The council put in £33M (£12M cap & seed investment plus £21M loan to be repaid).
- this is documented here http://moderngov.coventry.gov.uk/Da...08 - Arena Construction Completion Report.pdf
They also invested all the profit from the land deal (~£59M-£24M = £34M)

If that hadn't been done Arena Park & the Ricoh would still be a pipe dream and the Gas Towers would still be a scar on the face of the City.

Love it when the council spin doctor gets in full swing

That's council speak for "no" by the way.

 

[Jack Griffin]

But the £21m loan was repaid when ACL paid £21m for the 50 year leasehold.

Then it was taken back when the debt was rescheduled. So there is still a £14M liability.

 

[stupot07]

I'm not sure Tesco think having a football stadium causing traffic jams on matchday is a plus point. The other stores and restaurants could still have happened without the stadium being built.

They might have if the Arena was a further extension of the retail park. I guess they get little footfall from the stadium other than the 25 matchdays.

They wouldn't have cared less

You missed my point. The stadium vision was the catalyst for the regeneration vision for the Ricoh area, including the retail park. No stadium then the gas works may have still been sat there (look at Courtaulds).

Tesco's may well have decided to build there, I never said they wouldn't, but they not of paid the £54m premium without it being part of the larger regeneration vision.


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[chiefdave]

You missed my point. The stadium vision was the catalyst for the regeneration vision for the Ricoh area, including the retail park. No stadium then the gas works may have still been sat there (look at Courtaulds).

Tesco's may well have decided to build there, I never said they wouldn't, but they not of paid the £54m premium without it being part of the larger regeneration vision.

Are you saying the land wouldn't have been available, as in it wouldn't have been cleared? We'll never know that for a fact one way or another. There's plenty of Tescos built next to nothing in particular so I don't think there not being a football stadium on the site would have been an issue.

 

[stupot07]

Are you saying the land wouldn't have been available, as in it wouldn't have been cleared? We'll never know that for a fact one way or another. There's plenty of Tescos built next to nothing in particular so I don't think there not being a football stadium on the site would have been an issue.

No, I said the gas works might still have been there, and Tesco's may not have paid as much as £54m for land. The planned regeneration would have added value to the land.

Is that really inconceivable?


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[torchomatic]

I did mean ownership of the Ricoh in saying I prefer CCC to own it over Sisu.

Guess what? Your wish has already been granted.

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[wingy]

No, I said the gas works might still have been there, and Tesco's may not have paid as much as £54m for land. The planned regeneration would have added value to the land.

Is that really inconceivable?




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The not an unreasonable View Stu. Although Tesco are a Huge name In there own right ,not entirely sure the Ground of a provincial club would guarantee more Prestige or Footfall than say a Huge BHS Homestore Etc.

I believe It was the Club that attracted them through Richardson,not to say CCC could'nt have procured them through someone like CBRE.

The road network etc as much as anything would have helped attract them .

IIRC the land the Actual Arena Is on is still restricted to what development can be permitted due to residual contamination.

 

[shmmeee]

Just a thought, could CCC have had just as much success with the rest of the complex without the football bowl? I don't know and Stu is right in that it was designed as a complete deal.

Had Tesco not bought land, I'd imagine someone else would (ASDA for example). And had the whole thing fallen through I imagine the council would've kept looking for the project elsewhere.

You can doubt the influence of the council in all this, but not at the same time as saying the club were some local yokels taken in by City slicker council. Either they were capable of coordinating the deal and therefore understanding it in detail. Or they weren't.

 

[wingy]

Just a thought, could CCC have had just as much success with the rest of the complex without the football bowl? I don't know and Stu is right in that it was designed as a complete deal.

Had Tesco not bought land, I'd imagine someone else would (ASDA for example). And had the whole thing fallen through I imagine the council would've kept looking for the project elsewhere.

You can doubt the influence of the council in all this, but not at the same time as saying the club were some local yokels taken in by City slicker council. Either they were capable of coordinating the deal and therefore understanding it in detail. Or they weren't.

It's Mr Richardsons Forte and living is'nt It?

 

[letsallsingtogether]

Residual contamination are you on about shitfields again:thinking about:

The not an unreasonable View Stu. Although Tesco are a Huge name In there own right ,not entirely sure the Ground of a provincial club would guarantee more Prestige or Footfall than say a Huge BHS Homestore Etc.

I believe It was the Club that attracted them through Richardson,not to say CCC could'nt have procured them through someone like CBRE.

The road network etc as much as anything would have helped attract them .

IIRC the land the Actual Arena Is on is still restricted to what development can be permitted due to residual contamination.

 

[Jack Griffin]

Back on topic, you should listen to this debate http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Main/Player.aspx?meetingId=15049

Most of the Cov discussion is after 14:46 and there are plenty of mentions, I think every speaker had bad words about CCFC owners, both Labour and Conservative, in fact most of the speakers were Conservative.

 

[fernandopartridge]

............. then CCFC would not exist.

Absolute drivel, complete and utter nonsense.

 

[fernandopartridge]

Does anybody know who submitted the planning application for the Ricoh, i.e. who commissioned the architects and planners?

 

[bigfatronssba]

Absolute drivel, complete and utter nonsense.

So who would have bought the club in 2003 then?

 

[Kingokings204]

Just listened to the debate and its so sad and we must be aware its not just us but Portsmouth and crystal palace and many many others. Football is run badly end of. I believe it will change but unfortunately we will be a club to deal with this.

Needs to change, we need to disclose football owners and we need to disclose money and motives. Sisu are running the club into the ground deliberately for their financial gain. To clarify debts on the club are ok to keep rising and rising as sisu foot the bill in effect what they are doing in increasing the debt like they did with acl and the rent and they know full well all it takes is going to admin again and the debts are all at least halved such as 1.6 owed to acl and end up paying in the end 590k as we know so 1.6 becomes over 1m less.


It is stressed football is the only business/industry in the uk to run like this. This is what is called the football insolvency rule and this is what needs to change. Clubs can run up numerous debts and know they don't have to pay them back only football related debts are paid such as players wages etc and would explain why sisu have never not paid wages.

Sisu knew full well if they run up the 1.6 rent debt that they would never have to pay back that full amount and obviously saved over a million on this debt which is huge sum. This worries me about Northampton as the millions lost each year are certainly not "footed by a generous owner" Don't make me fucking laugh Mark Labowich. They know all the debts they accumulate will be at least halved and all the time they are hoping acl go bust and they then can take the ricoh for a cheaper price which obviously the game and the "return on their investment"

I always hoped Cov would return to ricoh next year based on figures but now there is nothing in place for the financial situation to off put them. So when you guys all do the figures and correctly state ricoh is better financially its pointless. Its obvious it is the better financial option but its not about that its about not paying increasing debts as no legislation in place to not pay your debts as we have seen and pick up Ricoh on the cheap. As we know and im sure the FL know that a new stadium is BS but again as said in parliament what can the FL do? They would be threated and taken to court which is very scary for them and would cost a lot which they want neither obviously. Its not about them having the balls like we suggest its about not having the power to do otherwise.

Look at other owners in the FL. Carsen Young at BCFC is in jail for money laundering, how was he ever fit and proper to take over a football club and look at leeds now with cellino and he has been done for fraud numerous times and yet still can buy LUFC. Its a joke and needs to change and make no mistake Coventry wont be the last club to go like this so be glad it happening now in a way as when we come through it some how other will be starting.

A good point made was at Portsmouth before the trust took over for 3m it was almost scuppered in a last minute bid by an unknown consortium (hedge fund probably) for more money who no one knew and had never shown an interest in the club but knew PFC owned the ground etc so it was a way to quick money. Luckily for them the trust managed to hold out but was very close by all accounts.

Hope this clears up a few loose ends.

 

[stupot07]

I'm not sure I agree with all you say there, and I don't think it's in sisu's interests to have the debt owed to funds they manage halved for the benefit of the football club, yes would benefit other clubs where substantial amounts are borrowed from banks.


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[Kingokings204]

I'm not sure I agree with all you say there, and I don't think it's in sisu's interests to have the debt owed to funds they manage halved for the benefit of the football club, yes would benefit other clubs where substantial amounts are borrowed from banks.


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It surely has to benefit sisu to have debts payable to a third of the debt. They would save multi mullions as proved with acl and their debt of 1.6m reduced to 590k. That sounds like a result to me especially when they could afford the 1.6 anyway.

 

[stupot07]

It surely has to benefit sisu to have debts payable to a third of the debt. They would save multi mullions as proved with acl and their debt of 1.6m reduced to 590k. That sounds like a result to me especially when they could afford the 1.6 anyway.

But that was external debt, the loans (ARVO, etc) are sisu controlled funds. People pay sisu to invest their money to get a return on the investment.(They won't get a return here), How does sisu planning to halve the debt (I.e money they are payed to invest for a return) benefit sisu?

The lease needed to be broken, I don't agree with how they did it but £1.2m per annum was ridiculously high rent.


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[italiahorse]

Absolute drivel, complete and utter nonsense.

..... so if CCC didn't step in where would we be playing now ?

 

[Kingokings204]

But that was external debt, the loans (ARVO, etc) are sisu controlled funds. People pay sisu to invest their money to get a return on the investment.(They won't get a return here), How does sisu planning to halve the debt (I.e money they are payed to invest for a return) benefit sisu?

The lease needed to be broken, I don't agree with how they did it but £1.2m per annum was ridiculously high rent.

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Yes I agree is as stupidly high rent but sisu chose to pay it when taking on the club in 2007/8. Buy yes we agree not right how they done it.

I also agree with your first point but the return on the investment comes from getting the ricoh on the cheap so while they occur debts like they are now they know they can at least half or more and this combined with getting ricoh on the cheap is the return on investment is how I read it.

 

[stupot07]

Yes I agree is as stupidly high rent but sisu chose to pay it when taking on the club in 2007/8. Buy yes we agree not right how they done it.

I also agree with your first point but the return on the investment comes from getting the ricoh on the cheap so while they occur debts like they are now they know they can at least half or more and this combined with getting ricoh on the cheap is the return on investment is how I read it.

Any return would go to those that owe the debt (I.e the investors/share holders) not to sisu personally, so I don't see how halving the debt to these investors (I.e losing half or more of their money) would be beneficial.

I can't see them ever getting their money back, but whilst it is written down as loans on paper they technically have lost nothing yet.


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[Kingokings204]

Any return would go to those that owe the debt (I.e the investors/share holders) not to sisu personally, so I don't see how halving the debt to these investors (I.e losing half or more of their money) would be beneficial.

I can't see them ever getting their money back, but whilst it is written down as loans on paper they technically have lost nothing yet.


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I agree with they as loans have lost nothing yet on paper and I also don't think and see how they will get a return on their investment.

Debts is money owed to companies though not debts from their investors so surely halving the debts owed to companies so the investors don't have to fork out as much is beneficial?

 

[torchomatic]

I'm not trying to throw eggs at anyone. It's good that the subject is discussed, but the problem is the subject is discussed and discussed again with lots of sympathetic tutting from the newpapers, Five Live, Talk Sport, etc etc but nothing ever gets resolved and it never will. If SISU were bothered by bad publicity, etc then we'd have been playing at the Ricoh all season.

Quite a few people seem to be coming out and trying to spread the word of our plight and all some of us can do is throw eggs at them .Why is that ?

 

[fernandopartridge]

So who would have bought the club in 2003 then?

It was more attractive than the club bought in 2007, it had the option to buy back Highfield Rd I believe.

 

[fernandopartridge]

..... so if CCC didn't step in where would we be playing now ?

Northampton?

 

[The Gentleman]

I'm not trying to throw eggs at anyone. It's good that the subject is discussed, but the problem is the subject is discussed and discussed again with lots of sympathetic tutting from the newpapers, Five Live, Talk Sport, etc etc but nothing ever gets resolved and it never will. If SISU were bothered by bad publicity, etc then we'd have been playing at the Ricoh all season.

Not necessarily, I do think that the more it gets highlighted then Sisu/Otium will feel more uncomfortable. This in itself will not make Sisu panic but if it were directed in the right place ie. who their investors are and them knowing exactly what their money is doing would put Sisu into a different corner. How you do that, I don't know but for me that is where you get a good investigative journalist. Because despite people saying their investors trust Sisu and they would happily go along with, I disagree because with our situation there seems to be no end in sight as the upcoming JR will just be appealed by the losing side and even if Sisu win that doesn't mean they will get what they are after and proving loses from the council will be even harder in my opinion.

 

[RoboCCFC90]

Sisu are running the club into the ground deliberately for their financial gain.

I get that the above sentiment is probably the thought of most and I won't argue that it isn't, however we have to also admit that with FFP Rules now every Club has to be bringing 100% revenue possible, Coventry City has never been close to achieving this at the Ricoh Arena despite who ever's fault it may be.

Problem is with that while we aren't bringing in the revenue, it also means we are not bringing in good enough players to compete, which means we are falling like a ton of bricks through the Football League.

I am all for changing the way football is run, but to an extent with our situation this is based on three parties not adult enough to discuss a deal suitable for everyone, forgetting trust issues, personal opinons, public attacks in the press and blind ignorance, Coventry City FC is being run into the Ground and has been for numerous years.

Alas while no sensible discussion or morale stances are obtained, the fans continue to suffer, the Club continues to struggle, the Club's employee's continue to struggle and the City itself continues to struggle, Coventry City needs to come home to the Ricoh, what is most important is that someone sensible brings all these parties to a table and handcuff them to it until a deal is agreed, whether it's CCFC obtaining ACL, or a rental deal with Matchday revenues or whether CCFC purchase the whole thing, it needs to be done.

Every person connected with the heirachy of Sisu, Coventry City FC, Arena Coventry Limited and Coventry City Council over the years, hang your heads in shame, you have let every fan down of this Football Club.