Do you want to discuss boring politics? (35 Viewers)

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Sunday at 9:25 PM

Sky Blue Pete said:
Streeting is absolutely right
I never thought I’d see the day when it was ok to say these things again.
shame on us

Reform MP Sarah Pochin's comments about adverts were 'racist', Wes Streeting says

Sarah Pochin apologises for saying "it drives me mad when I see adverts full of black people, full of Asian people".

www.bbc.co.uk

Phrased poorly, but it is a fair point on the demographics of advertising. Calling everything racist isn't exactly helpful towards any cause and the people that scream it the most often show themselves up as not really having any counter arguments.

There seems to be this desire to make the UK a completely mixed society, where as historically white British have been the majority demographic in the UK. This is now becoming a minority at a very alarming rate, and already are in many cities. Point this out and you are called a racist.

It's part of the reason Reform are doing so well, and also why we're seeing people putting Union Jack's up. The reaction to these comments will only add to that. No one has addressed what she has said, but instead just played the outrage card.

Mucca Mad Boys · Sunday at 9:28 PM

Sky Blue Pete said:
It wasn’t normal times
Rioting was happening including people attempting to set fire to hotels containing human beings

Ok, what’s the evidence here tweeting specifically incited violence? None. There’s an implicit acceptance in your response that the harshness of the sentence was politically motivated and that’s kind of the point here.

12 months for sexual assault of a minor is a joke and allows predators to reoffend.

Sky Blue Pete · Sunday at 9:32 PM

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
Phrased poorly, but it is a fair point on the demographics of advertising. Calling everything racist isn't exactly helpful towards any cause and the people that scream it the most often show themselves up as not really having any counter arguments.

There seems to be this desire to make the UK a completely mixed society, where as historically white British have been the majority demographic in the UK. This is now becoming a minority at a very alarming rate, and already are in many cities. Point this out and you are called a racist.

It's part of the reason Reform are doing so well, and also why we're seeing people putting Union Jack's up. The reaction to these comments will only add to that. No one has addressed what she has said, but instead just played the outrage card.

Nah step too far for me sorry
It needs to be called out
She has a responsibility as racists are being emboldened to attack verbally and physically on the back of the words

Sky Blue Pete · Sunday at 9:33 PM

Mucca Mad Boys said:
Ok, what’s the evidence here tweeting specifically incited violence? None. There’s an implicit acceptance in your response that the harshness of the sentence was politically motivated and that’s kind of the point here.

12 months for sexual assault of a minor is a joke and allows predators to reoffend.

I wonder if those within the system know better than you or I?

She pleaded guilty to the offence

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Sunday at 9:37 PM

Sky Blue Pete said:
Nah step too far for me sorry
It needs to be called out
She has a responsibility as racists are being emboldened to attack verbally and physically on the back of the words

I honestly thinking shutting down these types of conversations only serves to make it worse in that sense.

Sky Blue Pete · Sunday at 9:38 PM

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
I honestly thinking shutting down these types of conversations only serves to make it worse in that sense.

I genuinely don’t notice wtaf does it matter what colour skin someone has

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Sunday at 9:58 PM

Sky Blue Pete said:
I genuinely don’t notice wtaf does it matter what colour skin someone has

That isn't the point here.

Sky Blue Pete · Sunday at 10:18 PM

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
That isn't the point here.

Ok

Mucca Mad Boys · Sunday at 10:26 PM

Sky Blue Pete said:
I wonder if those within the system know better than you or I?

She pleaded guilty to the offence

The government did sound tough as the riots happened so it’s not even a secret.

It happened at the same time Labour decided to release criminals early which predictably went down like a lead balloon.

She did plead guilty and she claims she did so because she was allegedly pressured into it.

Sick Boy · Sunday at 10:27 PM

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
Phrased poorly, but it is a fair point on the demographics of advertising. Calling everything racist isn't exactly helpful towards any cause and the people that scream it the most often show themselves up as not really having any counter arguments.

There seems to be this desire to make the UK a completely mixed society, where as historically white British have been the majority demographic in the UK. This is now becoming a minority at a very alarming rate, and already are in many cities. Point this out and you are called a racist.

It's part of the reason Reform are doing so well, and also why we're seeing people putting Union Jack's up. The reaction to these comments will only add to that. No one has addressed what she has said, but instead just played the outrage card.

Not that it should matter but the country is over 80% white.

Sky Blue Pete · Sunday at 10:35 PM

Mucca Mad Boys said:
The government did sound tough as the riots happened so it’s not even a secret.

It happened at the same time Labour decided to release criminals early which predictably went down like a lead balloon.

She did plead guilty and she claims she did so because she was allegedly pressured into it.

They had to

The system was about to collapse

she wasn’t

Mucca Mad Boys · Sunday at 10:40 PM

Sky Blue Pete said:
They had to

The system was about to collapse

she wasn’t

‘The system was about to collapse’ doesn’t ring particularly true the way they fast tracked rioters and people who posted mean tweets. Rioters, more than happy to clamp down because no one wants civil disorder.

Again, the back drop is that the government made it it priority to bring these people to justice but not everyday criminals and these perceptions damaged this government significantly.

Sky Blue Pete · Sunday at 10:45 PM

Mucca Mad Boys said:
‘The system was about to collapse’ doesn’t ring particularly true the way they fast tracked rioters and people who posted mean tweets. Rioters, more than happy to clamp down because no one wants civil disorder.

Again, the back drop is that the government made it it priority to bring these people to justice but not everyday criminals and these perceptions damaged this government significantly.

That’s just not true but I’m too tired to discuss

No one was fast tracked the criminal justice system is collapsing but no one who didn’t plead guilty was fast tracked anywhere

nothing I say will convince you that rioters and those egging them on weren’t badly treated

there were no prison places left

Mucca Mad Boys · Sunday at 10:52 PM

Sky Blue Pete said:
That’s just not true but I’m too tired to discuss

No one was fast tracked the criminal justice system is collapsing but no one who didn’t plead guilty was fast tracked anywhere

nothing I say will convince you that rioters and those egging them on weren’t badly treated

there were no prison places left

Did this not happen then?

Starmer says rioters can expect rapid sentencing - BBC News

Teenager James Nelson is thought to be the first person to be jailed for their part in the disorder.

www.bbc.co.uk

SBT · Monday at 12:23 AM

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
There seems to be this desire to make the UK a completely mixed society, where as historically white British have been the majority demographic in the UK. This is now becoming a minority at a very alarming rate, and already are in many cities. Point this out and you are called a racist.

What is "alarming" to you about having fewer white people in the UK?

rob9872 · Monday at 12:38 AM

Demographics of the United Kingdom - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Just for balance, whatever your views, this has numbers for all upur arguments on both sides.

One fact I thought was interesting was the kids at school. In 2004 it was 6.4m classified as white British, in 2021 it was 6.3m, however in 2004 that was 82%, in 2021 it was 66.3%.

So whilst the numbers arent hugely different, the overall number of kids in school has massively increased at the same time the number of teachers has declined.

It also shows how the demographic of the country might look in another generation I guess.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Monday at 9:02 AM

Mucca Mad Boys said:
Based on polling, the public generally want 0-100k net migration.

Ultimately, the public just want reassurance that migration is controlled and people who do come integrate and provide an economic benefit. Post-Brexit, EEA migration has been cut but unfortunately its been supplanted by non-EEA migration. Generally, EEA migrants tend to be economically net-contributors and the opposite is true for most non-EEA nations. In this respect, the public won't necessary care about numbers if there's confidence robust controls on migration are in place.

We should aspire to be a high wage economy like Australia and in order to achieve that aim, you need to regulate the labour market and this is a position traditionally supported by trade unionists so should be a bread and butter Labour position. Take social care as an example, we're reliant on cheap-imported labour but its not without cost because there's been several high profile cases where patients have died because care workers are not proficient enough in English to communicate with emergency services. There's also v little prospect of working conditions and wages to increase when you have an infinite supply of cheap labour.

There are sectors in the economy where the government has created the demand for immigration, particularly the NHS. If you systematically cut training places for doctors and nurses (etc), then of course you need to import labour to fill those gaps. This is being used as a justification for more immigration.

Side note: its cases like the Epping migrant committing a sex offence within days of arriving via small boats, given a lenient sentence and subsequently released makes a complete mockery of our system and creates a toxic atmosphere around the issue. What better ammunition for those decrying "two-tier justice?"

How many of the general public that want 0-100k net migration have even the slightest idea of how many people we need to run the services they want? So many are massively understaffed and if they actually got what they wanted the mess if would result in would be even worse.

I agree about aspiring to be a high wage economy, but the problem is those in charge of economic policy and those in charge of the big corporations that have the biggest influence on that don't. They want high profits and shareholder dividends. They don't value actual work, they value how much money you have. They move us further and further into a service economy which are largely unskilled, low wage jobs. Until we move away from that mindset we're going to be fucked.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Monday at 9:05 AM

Mucca Mad Boys said:
For sure, my views on immigration are reasonable and possibly influenced more by left leaning people than right.

On students, the student visa route is being used as a trojan horse for permanent settlement and there's many students transitioning from this visa to the social care route and around 1/16th asylum claims are student visa. These loopholes need to be clamped down to ensure any students who are settling permanently are above average earners i.e. net tax contributors.

In short, low ranking universities shouldn't be allowed to be propped up by international students. This is another area where the government is allowing migration to 'prop up' an industry where immigration begets more immigration. It comes back to the central point that we want successful people and elite talent to settle in the UK. It's probably not the case that the University of Bedfordshire is probably not producing many high tax individuals.

There was a case in the news recently when an English Lit graduate at a mickey mouse uni needed an interpreter after murdering his wife.

Migrant murderer with poor English ‘should never have had student visa’

A migrant who murdered his wife as she pushed her pram down the street should never have been given a student visa to enter Britain, the Tories have suggested.

www.yahoo.com

But without foreign students propping up those universities many go out of business and how many people would be out of work if they did?

While I'm not against poor unis and nonsense courses falling by the wayside, you also have to consider the implications on the economy, both national and local, of that happening. The social and welfare costs would be huge.

Brighton Sky Blue · Monday at 9:10 AM

rob9872 said:
So whilst the numbers arent hugely different, the overall number of kids in school has massively increased at the same time the number of teachers has declined.

Almost there…

rob9872 · Monday at 9:16 AM

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Almost there…

I almost @ you when I typed it tbf, but it's not just about pay or attracting more teachers which I know is where you'd want me to join the dots. Oversized classes, harder work and more 'issues' in addition to lots of kids not having English as their first language, takes teachers away from the profession, and if anything just shows the unseen strain on services that unprecedented levels of immigration are bringing. It's ok saying the NHS need staff which is the usual line or we have low paid jobs that need filling, but it brings other challenges too.

Brighton Sky Blue · Monday at 9:40 AM

rob9872 said:
I almost @ you when I typed it tbf, but it's not just about pay or attracting more teachers which I know is where you'd want me to join the dots. Oversized classes, harder work and more 'issues' in addition to lots of kids not having English as their first language, takes teachers away from the profession, and if anything just shows the unseen strain on services that unprecedented levels of immigration are bringing. It's ok saying the NHS need staff which is the usual line or we have low paid jobs that need filling, but it brings other challenges too.

I’d say it shows the strain on services that have come from not being arsed to fund them properly at the same time as diverting funds from the front line service into MAT executives.

14 years of neglecting everything is where it was always going to lead.

Mucca Mad Boys · Monday at 9:48 AM

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
How many of the general public that want 0-100k net migration have even the slightest idea of how many people we need to run the services they want? So many are massively understaffed and if they actually got what they wanted the mess if would result in would be even worse.

I agree about aspiring to be a high wage economy, but the problem is those in charge of economic policy and those in charge of the big corporations that have the biggest influence on that don't. They want high profits and shareholder dividends. They don't value actual work, they value how much money you have. They move us further and further into a service economy which are largely unskilled, low wage jobs. Until we move away from that mindset we're going to be fucked.

Can you find me a country that has high wages, high levels of low skill migration and a comprehensive welfare state? You can’t because the priorities are contradictory.

I’m genuinely interested in your view on this next question too. What’s more important to you; The welfare state or mass migration?

On public services, you’re referring to the NHS, predictably. This is an area where UK government policies has systematically cut training places for nurses and doctors at university and in the NHS. So the policy has created condition where more immigration is needed - this needs to be reversed.

On social care, you consistently have more people arriving on social care visa than filling vacancies in that sector. When talk about raising standards, I have social care specifically in mind because the endless supply of cheap labour is allowing employers to exploit workers.

The bottom line is that migrants on a salaries less than £35,000 per year will be a net drain on the treasury. That figure probably isn’t static and moving up with inflation too.

rob9872 · Monday at 9:48 AM

Why always 14 years? It specifically started the day the coalition took power and ended the day they left? Same trotted out excuse for every service. Absolutely nothing to do with a coalition, Brexit or a pandemic with half the country on furlough in that time period either. The numbers are there that immigration has put a huge strain on the profession.

rob9872 · Monday at 9:50 AM

And I've even been more gracious than most in highlighting Starmer's issues that lots of his own supporters don't give him credit for on here, in that you can't expect change as soon as he's taken office. Things take time and he's only 18 months in. Lots of the 'good stuff' is always in the second half of a government's time.

SBT · Monday at 9:52 AM

Mucca Mad Boys said:
Can you find me a country that has high wages, high levels of low skill migration and a comprehensive welfare state? You can’t because the priorities are contradictory.

Canada? Sweden? Norway?

Mucca Mad Boys · Monday at 9:56 AM

Brighton Sky Blue said:
I’d say it shows the strain on services that have come from not being arsed to fund them properly at the same time as diverting funds from the front line service into MAT executives.

14 years of neglecting everything is where it was always going to lead.

You say this with a straight face despite the fact that the coalition never cut NHS spending.

‘Real term’ cuts aren’t cuts, you can’t run a business (or a healthcare system) like that.

Besides, this government has increased the NHS budget above ‘real terms’ and we’ll see how they get stuck into waiting lists. Also in the news this weekend that the amount of people going abroad for treatments has grown again to 500k.

rob9872 · Monday at 9:56 AM

It is alarming and that data is 4 years out of date, that the number of children in school increased from 2012 to 2021 by 25%. If that trend continues then we really will have an issue for the next generation and it's the kids who will suffer.

SBT · Monday at 10:04 AM

Mucca Mad Boys said:
You say this with a straight face despite the fact that the coalition never cut NHS spending.

This is ridiculously disingenuous of you

chiefdave · Monday at 10:05 AM

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
How many of the general public that want 0-100k net migration have even the slightest idea of how many people we need to run the services they want? So many are massively understaffed and if they actually got what they wanted the mess if would result in would be even worse.

I agree about aspiring to be a high wage economy, but the problem is those in charge of economic policy and those in charge of the big corporations that have the biggest influence on that don't. They want high profits and shareholder dividends. They don't value actual work, they value how much money you have. They move us further and further into a service economy which are largely unskilled, low wage jobs. Until we move away from that mindset we're going to be fucked.

Spot on. Think it was YouGov who did a more in depth poll recently and all it ended up showing is that people have no idea what the numbers around migration actually is and gave massively contradictory answers.

The majority massively over estimate the number coming in, say they want it to stop but then when questioned on individual things, like care workers or students, say they're fine to come in.

A higher wage economy would be great, the increasing inequality is the root of many issues we see, but how do we achieve that. The second there is talk of increased pay or conditions all we hear is either those at the top saying it will lead to economic collapse, while they take out billions, or other workers saying they should be grateful for what they get. We are an economy that has grown accustomed to a never ending supply of cheap labour, either by having that labour here or outsourcing to other low wage countries. Not sure there's an easy fix for that unless you are ready to take on the people at the top hoarding the wealth.

Saw a post on twitter at the weekend. Someone a few years into their working life wondering why everything was so expensive but wages so low, maybe people are close to joining the dots.

chiefdave · Monday at 10:09 AM

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
But without foreign students propping up those universities many go out of business and how many people would be out of work if they did?

While I'm not against poor unis and nonsense courses falling by the wayside, you also have to consider the implications on the economy, both national and local, of that happening. The social and welfare costs would be huge.

Its another problem we've created for ourselves that we're now struggling to get out of. If you cut the nonsense courses, and set the numbers on the courses remaining so there was a realistic chance of getting a job at the end of it, how many people are you adding to the job market.

At some point we may need to have a discussion around the viability of everyone working a 40+ hour week with increased automation and technological advances.

Mucca Mad Boys · Monday at 10:13 AM

SBT said:
Canada? Sweden? Norway?

Canada’s wages are stagnating, hasn’t recovered to pre-pandemic levels. Coincidentally, at the same point net migration has reached its highest point.

Sweden has turned its on immigration and has introduced several measures to make entering and settling in Sweden more difficult. It’s reducing its net migration. Norway is introducing similar measures because in 2022 & 2023 net migration hit a peak and an anti-immigration sentiment followed.

From ‘open hearts’ to closed borders: behind Sweden’s negative net immigration figures

Record low asylum applications ‘surprising’ when global displacement is at all-time high, with aid agencies blaming fear and far-right rhetoric

www.theguardian.com

https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/norway-immigration-welfare-state

SBT said:
This is ridiculously disingenuous of you

View attachment 46815

Correct me if I’m wrong, your graph shows a positive growth.

SBT · Monday at 10:14 AM

Mucca Mad Boys said:
Correct me if I’m wrong, your graph shows a positive growth.

“We’re not starving the patient, we gave him a piece of toast only yesterday!”

Grendel · Monday at 10:14 AM

duffer said:
Just a correction of an obvious error. There was no two-tier justice here, the man in question received the maximum sentence that can be given at a magistrates court.

The release was also an obvious error. One of 262 in a year.

So the idea that this bloke has been treated leniently is a complete fiction. In fact he got the maximum sentence that he could receive at the magistrates, and then was subject to a huge manhunt that none of the the other 261 mistaken releases had.

I'm all in favour of not giving ammunition to the two-tier justice myth, because it doesn't stand up to analysis.

Also, given that 40% of those arrested in the immigration riots had previous convictions for things like domestic violence, I feel a bit sick when their cheerleaders talk about law and order or protecting women. It's a tad hypocritical.

https://www.essex.police.uk/news/essex/news/news/2025/september/epping-man-jailed-over-sexual-assaults/

Shocking amount of prisoners released in error as numbers more than double in a year

Thousands of inmates have also been freed early since then in a bid to cut jail overcrowding

www.independent.co.uk

He was hardly subjected to a huge manhunt

There was CCTV of him in libraries, town centres and boarding the train.

He was only caught as someone recognised him and rang the local police.

It now appears this poor chap who fled Ethiopia wanted to return and not go to prison. He then tried to say he should not be released but still was.

chiefdave · Monday at 10:19 AM

Mucca Mad Boys said:
Canada’s wages are stagnating, hasn’t recovered to pre-pandemic levels. Coincidentally, at the same point net migration has reached its highest point.

I listen to a fair bit of Canadian radio to get hockey news. Its quite funny to hear them talking about the collapse of public services and then talking about having to wait a couple of hours in the ER. If only we had their 'problems'

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Monday at 10:19 AM

chiefdave said:
Its another problem we've created for ourselves that we're now struggling to get out of. If you cut the nonsense courses, and set the numbers on the courses remaining so there was a realistic chance of getting a job at the end of it, how many people are you adding to the job market.

At some point we may need to have a discussion around the viability of everyone working a 40+ hour week with increased automation and technological advances.

I have increasingly thought about whether we should start considering a working week much lower than FT which people can get buy on. Work-life balance is increasingly important and could help mental health in this country (and the problems caused by it) no end.

It would also increase the number of people in employment as you could effectively have 2 PT workers instead of 1 FT and many people who don't want to feel their life is literally get up, go to work, come home, go to bed, repeat could be tempted. Of course it does increase costs on employers as you have extra costs involved with training more people etc. but I think it would improve productivity and reduce absenteeism enough to not be an issue.

Of course you'll have the usual lot saying people can't afford to or that those people are just lazy and work-shy, but frankly prices have to be set at a level that is affordable enough for people to buy them.

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