Paul Fletcher : Ground Share will never work

[Ian1779]

Current £100,000 rent is peanuts- one decent crowd in league one would cover that for the full season -I am sure that the rent would increase the further went up the tree but so would the revenues -great teams such as Bayern Munich, Milan, Roma, Panathinaikos, ground share the list is endless, in Europe it is a common theme - many thousands of business throughout the Uk rent/lease there buildings sorry Mr fletcher

In all of those you list there is a partnership that is mutually beneficial to both clubs in terms of revenue. That is simply not the case for us.

If it were there would be far less to gripe about.

 

[Sick Boy]

Get to the Championship and maybe those behind Wasps might take a keen eye?

Let's hope not.

 

[Sky Blue Kid]

You might want to read the article as he says it would be stupid to build a new stadium!

So what is he saying then? Steal the Ricoh?

 

[italiahorse]

So what is he saying then? Steal the Ricoh?

Why don't we move the team out and then ACL/Wasps will go bust and we can move back in as owners ?

 

[oldskyblue58]

In all of those you list there is a partnership that is mutually beneficial to both clubs in terms of revenue. That is simply not the case for us.

If it were there would be far less to gripe about.

I think I might add to that a long term partnership that is mutually beneficial to both clubs in terms of revenue.

We shouldn't at this stage assume such as thing is not possible at the Ricoh, but the will to do it has to be there on both sides....... is it?

Two basic things need to be sorted out between the two sides - a share of incomes for the right price, and secondly a commitment to being there. Right now those basics create issues for both sides for various reasons.

 

[olderskyblue]

So what is he saying then? Steal the Ricoh?

That's already been tried...

 

[covcity4life]

this is such a messed up situation

leicester fans get to dream about winning prem, we have to worrya bout wether we can ever be a force in division 2

 

[olderskyblue]

I think I might add to that a long term partnership that is mutually beneficial to both clubs in terms of revenue.

We shouldn't at this stage assume such as thing is not possible at the Ricoh, but the will to do it has to be there on both sides....... is it?

Two basic things need to be sorted out between the two sides - a share of incomes for the right price, and secondly a commitment to being there. Right now those basics create issues for both sides for various reasons.

Can you guess at how much in £££ we are actually missing out on with the current arrangement, compared to getting more of the match day income?

 

[oldskyblue58]

Can you guess at how much in £££ we are actually missing out on with the current arrangement, compared to getting more of the match day income?

hard to tell really.

There are certain incomes we do not miss out on at all
Ticket income
prize money/league pay outs
TV money
Sponsorship (excluding stadium naming rights) - shirts, balls, programs, match etc
A lot of the advertising
commercial partnerships
We sell hospitality packages for restaurants & boxes
Academy Grants

Some revenues are shared
Parking on match days
F&B on match days (I think they get 50% but is that after costs?)
shop sales (the club chose to franchise out)
program sales (the club chose to franchise out)

We do not get
Stadium naming rights
stand and room naming rights
conference/event incomes
Any other stadium incomes on non match days

But on the flip side the club doesn't have to pick up a lot of the costs either, particularly the staffing costs/risks, stadium maintenance, and the non match day fixed costs of the whole venue 365 days a year

There maybe match day costs to add in that CCFC pay ACL (it has never been clear if there is or isn't) but the stadium rent works out at £4347 per match (or around 395 season ticket holders). To get more of the other income streams then you would expect CCFC to pay out more for being there.

 

[SkyBlueZack]

How much at present time for half of acl approximately? Would and could half of acl enable the club to be self sustaining?

 

[italiahorse]

How much at present time for half of acl approximately? Would and could half of acl enable the club to be self sustaining?

I believe that even with all those incomes we would need some person/company to gift us the money to get into the PL.

Historically that seems to be the case.

 

[oldskyblue58]

How much at present time for half of acl approximately? Would and could half of acl enable the club to be self sustaining?

no idea I very much doubt it would ever be for sale in the foreseeable future. Ownership of ACL is not what is important to CCFC - the rights to income at the site are. Two different things.

Apparently we are self sustaining in L1 as it is, if we get promoted then we need to find at least 6m imo additional income and very likely have owners that will finance annual losses to maintain The championship status.

 

[SkyBlueZack]

We need to sell out every week, that would help. How many more on the gate in the championship? Increase in tv, sponsorship? Is that in with the 6m shortfall?

 

[oldskyblue58]

they will all be factors

TV money will be greater in the Championship as should attendances assuming we at least hold our own. Match prices might have to go up though £2 on a ticket would probably bring in £500k pa or more on the same attendances as now. An extra 1000 on the gate I would guess would bring in £250k over the season. Should be able to charge more for things like shirt sponsorship. It all adds up but will it be enough and it is all perched on the team succeeding and maintaining that success isn't it

Trouble is the wage bill to be competitive is likely to go from around £2m to over £8m let alone the additional operations staff required.

 

[Joy Division]

Paul 'operation premiership' Fletcher.

 

[Bumberclart]

Fletcher is is a good guy, with an impressive track record.
CCFC is a stain on his CV which I'm sure he wishes he'd never got involved with. The club had terminal cancer when he arrived, the only thing he was guilty of was over hyping operation premiership.

Our best hope of owning the Ricoh is for Wasps to go bust, and us picking it up for a song from the liquidators.

 

[Otis]

Stick it on Hearsall Common and build an underpass.

 

[Senior Vick from Alicante]

I do believe that their is a future at the Ricoh on a rental basis. What would need to happen is SISU think outside the box in regards to revenue streams and try to share the financial implications in some way like selling shares back to fans or inviting in an affluent partner. If you look at a club like Man U in this country or some of the big European clubs revenue from ticket sales and ground ownership is tiny compared to income from commercial activities. I am no Sisu lover but they have done right by TM and MV this season with regards to budgets, weather that's down to MV,s financial acumen in negotiating a great deal we will never know. You only need to sustain a contracted squad at the next level in my opinion as you will have to build a squad and players at higher levels want that security of a 2 year contract as a minimum.

 

[Joy Division]

Fletcher is is a good guy, with an impressive track record.
CCFC is a stain on his CV which I'm sure he wishes he'd never got involved with. The club had terminal cancer when he arrived, the only thing he was guilty of was over hyping operation premiership.

Our best hope of owning the Ricoh is for Wasps to go bust, and us picking it up for a song from the liquidators.

What is his track record?

 

[Covstu]

For me I am 'okay' with the current arrangement, the rent is competitive and we see some money back which works. A couple of areas which will change this situation however:
1) Wasps become more settled and do not need the £100k and want to make it their 'own'. This may or may not ever happen, we aren't exactly cutting up the pitch so I guess this may continue.
2) They start making changes to the ground that will stop it feeling like 'home' such as black and yellow seats etc. I know it sounds daft but for home advantage to really be effective it needs to feel like home. We are already seeing some changes, more (and larger logos), friggin flags on the roundabout etc. At some point it wont be our home.

 

[Otis]

What is his track record?

The Shot Put Blues?

 

[SBAndy]

they will all be factors

TV money will be greater in the Championship as should attendances assuming we at least hold our own. Match prices might have to go up though £2 on a ticket would probably bring in £500k pa or more on the same attendances as now. An extra 1000 on the gate I would guess would bring in £250k over the season. Should be able to charge more for things like shirt sponsorship. It all adds up but will it be enough and it is all perched on the team succeeding and maintaining that success isn't it

Trouble is the wage bill to be competitive is likely to go from around £2m to over £8m let alone the additional operations staff required.

Done some digging on the TV money issue. I cannot find a definitive value on the Football League's current TV deal, but suggestions are that it is worth around £3m per club. I am unsure as to whether there is weighting involved within that.

The solidarity payment from the Premier League is the difference. Currently, we receive c£975k from this deal, and if we were to go up to the Championship we could expect £6.5m. If we need to increase our budget from £2m per season to £8m per season, then that will make up £5.5m of this £6m deficit identified. All we need then is to find an extra £500k from somewhere.

 

[Captain Dart]

Done some digging on the TV money issue. I cannot find a definitive value on the Football League's current TV deal, but suggestions are that it is worth around £3m per club. I am unsure as to whether there is weighting involved within that.

The solidarity payment from the Premier League is the difference. Currently, we receive c£975k from this deal, and if we were to go up to the Championship we could expect £6.5m. If we need to increase our budget from £2m per season to £8m per season, then that will make up £5.5m of this £6m deficit identified. All we need then is to find an extra £500k from somewhere.

So if those figures are accurate then the Fisher pronouncement about the Championship being unsustainable renting the Arena looks about as accurate as his we will build a new stadium in 3 years statement.

 

[Limey]

no idea I very much doubt it would ever be for sale in the foreseeable future. Ownership of ACL is not what is important to CCFC - the rights to income at the site are. Two different things.

Apparently we are self sustaining in L1 as it is, if we get promoted then we need to find at least 6m imo additional income and very likely have owners that will finance annual losses to maintain The championship status.

Under what circumstances would it ever be beneficial for wasps to allow ccfc to buy into revenue streams? Can't see sisu offering a bucket load of cash.

Maybe the Ricoh is more profitable to wasps with CCFC there (or is it?) and is a negotiating tool. Either way we know CCFC aren't going anywhere else fast.

 

[chiefdave]

Under what circumstances would it ever be beneficial for wasps to allow ccfc to buy into revenue streams? Can't see sisu offering a bucket load of cash.

Only way that would happen is if Wasps had cashflow issues and needed some cash short term. There would be no other reason for them to give up revenue streams for less than they make from them.

 

[stupot07]

So if those figures are accurate then the Fisher pronouncement about the Championship being unsustainable renting the Arena looks about as accurate as his we will build a new stadium in 3 years statement.

But all teams not getting the parachute payments will also receive the £6.5m solidarity payments, they will also get more from their matchday and 365 day incomes, and FFP allows teams to lose £13m pa, so if it is anything like the season we were relegated our revenues will likely be in the bottom 4 in the championship (despite better attendances than 9 other clubs), if we're going to continue to limited our wage bill to 60% turnover in the championship.


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[dongonzalos]

But all teams not getting the parachute payments will also receive the £6.5m solidarity payments, they will also get more from their matchday and 365 day incomes, and FFP allows teams to lose £13m pa, so if it is anything like the season we were relegated our revenues will likely be in the bottom 4 in the championship (despite better attendances than 9 other clubs), if we're going to continue to limited our wage bill to 60% turnover in the championship.


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Doesn't very little income actually come from having 365 day incomes?

 

[The Gentleman]

But all teams not getting the parachute payments will also receive the £6.5m solidarity payments, they will also get more from their matchday and 365 day incomes, and FFP allows teams to lose £13m pa, so if it is anything like the season we were relegated our revenues will likely be in the bottom 4 in the championship (despite better attendances than 9 other clubs), if we're going to continue to limited our wage bill to 60% turnover in the championship.


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So with what we were told by CA the other day about the Championship model being looked at by the club, will you change your stance about us not being able to compete in it or do you still believe 100% that it won't work?

 

[stupot07]

Doesn't very little income actually come from having 365 day incomes?

it's not huge but must be worth the hassle given every club does it. And it's not just about weddings, functions, etc. Stadium sponsorship, stand sponsorship, selling advertising outside ground, parking, f&b's (but full control on costs not the compass model of 11% profit ref: ACL QnA), sub letting offices, renting pitch out for U21's games, etc.


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[stupot07]

So with what we were told by CA the other day about the Championship model being looked at by the club, will you change your stance about us not being able to compete in it or do you still believe 100% that it won't work?

I said on an other thread a couple of days ago that I don't believe him.


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[The Gentleman]

I said on an other thread a couple of days ago that I don't believe him.


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I don't spend much time anymore so didn't read what you said. Why don't you believe him?

And lets not forget that you've been proved wrong on here before.....

 

[stupot07]

I don't spend much time anymore so didn't read what you said. Why don't you believe him?

Because of the previously accounts against our peers when we were in the championship (only Peterborough, Barnsley and Doncaster had lower turnovers than us), because FFP rules are different and we don't have owners who will put in the level of funding required to be competitive, and CA seems to be the only expert who thinks it will be all ok - 2 independent experts (1x CWR and 1x CT), Fisher (don't laugh ), fletcher, and others have all said that its fine in league one but not for the championship. People will point to Bournemouth (their turnover was about 500k less than ours in the championship) but their owner was throwing in an extra £10-15m pa to fund their rise. Sisu won't do that.

It's not in CA's interests to down play our championship chances as that will have a negative impact on ticket sales and sponsorship, if they turn around as say we will struggle next season. We have been constantly lied to by the board, why would we believe everything CA says. He said Maddison asked to move, Mowbray said he didn't, he said he didn't believe in a short term deal at the Ricoh, then signed a 2 year deal. We sold Maddison and then Mowbray says there's no money.

Tbh we need to forget about next season and just concentrate on trying to get promoted first.


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[The Gentleman]

I'd love to just think about this season and promotion but it pisses me off (and others) when people piss on bonfires before anything has actually happened about being in the championship. Despite you and other supposed 'experts' pouring scorn over being in the championship, I like a lot of fans would just love the chance of being in the championship and then lets see what happens, rather than every time promotion is mentioned we seem to get people fucking moaning about how bad it'll be. After years of shit, just enjoy the thought a bit more.

 

[Kingokings204]

Yes agreed, surely if we are back in the championship then it's up to the management to find a way to keep us there and progress again? All well and good saying we won't have the revenues etc but then we need to find a way and good solutions not just simply be a league 1 to yo club and that's our limit.

 

[Ian1779]

Doesn't very little income actually come from having 365 day incomes?

Using Wasps as an example - they are claiming that they will end up with the greatest revenue streams of all rugby teams in UK (if not Europe) and we've seen what their attendances are like. So to generate all that revenue it must be coming from somewhere like the non-match day operations