Which would you prefer ? (1 Viewer)

[SuperCov]

But could you not say that what we have seen from SISU so far this season shows a degree of both investment and ambition?

Agree, as soon as MR came in he got 5 loans in. As well as us getting 9 or so new players in the summer.

They're either learning from their mistakes or showing us they are just to screw us over later on. I really hope it is the former though.

OP: I would take promotion over administration.

 

---

[dongonzalos]

I'm not convinced by some of the arguments here. Remember life is a bit of a gamble at times and not for the cautionary tale of an accountants advice. SISU bought in as a gamble to a certain degree. They knew what it was about with Ranson. Its gone a little pear shaped but you can come back from that...look at Southampton, Norwich and before them Manchester City! Its about momentum at the club, the right dynamics in place etc etc. Presently we look to be getting that on track rapidly? Robin's is the ideal man and we compete top end in this league so I would not consider it a slim chance of promotion but a pretty real one within 2 seasons.
Then the momentum could carry that forward to the prem and big pay days. Being in business is about taking risk...logical and risky ones.
SISU's best chance is getting us up through the leagues and see where it takes you. The stadium is a side issue that will come into play later as we gain those promotions and benefit all. They need a deal on it and the council and ACL etc need to help find one. It won't be found in the courts.
SISU know when their backs are to the wall you play hard ball and so would I for my interest. Their interest equates to CCFC interest. There are many ways to skin a cat remember...just one step at a time.

I assume Paxman,
that you believe SISU have completely changed their outlook to last year.

Those little gambles were there last year

If we offer Marlon king the right contract he may believe we are they best bet for him not Birmingham.
If we sell or release 8-9 players then we have to replace them with similar numbers and quality. Otherwise we are taking a gamble that the club may get relegated.
If we allow the club to go into transfer embargo's it hinders us in getting into strong positions to sign our main targets early. (This season for that one, as well).
If we are in a relegation battle in January selling our top striker for 750k is a gamble that is likely to end up with us getting relegated.

I think you are right I think they took a lot of these little gambles last season.
However I think the gamble was will this relegate Coventry.
I think the decision regarding each gamble was not in the interest of CCFC but in the interest of SISU

Yes we are experiencing some success this season.

However I implore you not to forget that this success is in the third division of the English football league.

We are currently excited as we are beating Stevenage and the MK Dons.

This is because SISU made decisions that suited SISU that were not synonymous with success for Coventry.

Like I say I can only assume you believe they have changed.

For me it is simply a case that their negotiating position is better in this division, ie the cost of the rent, wages are lower when you have to prove your intent when you have to sign lots of players. It is easier to get success in this division. When you get success fans will back you whatever ruthless tactics you employ.

They have had to invest in players as it was clearly spelt out to them without doing so the council will block any attempts by them to get their fingers in the Ricoh.

 

[Sick Boy]

I assume Paxman,
that you believe SISU have completely changed their outlook to last year.

Those little gambles were there last year

If we offer Marlon king the right contract he may believe we are they best bet for him not Birmingham.
If we sell or release 8-9 players then we have to replace them with similar numbers and quality. Otherwise we are taking a gamble that the club may get relegated.
If we allow the club to go into transfer embargo's it hinders us in getting into strong positions to sign our main targets early. (This season for that one, as well).
If we are in a relegation battle in January selling our top striker for 750k is a gamble that is likely to end up with us getting relegated.

I think you are right I think they took a lot of these little gambles last season.
However I think the gamble was will this relegate Coventry.
I think the decision regarding each gamble was not in the interest of CCFC but in the interest of SISU

Yes we are experiencing some success this season.

However I implore you not to forget that this success is in the third division of the English football league.

We are currently excited as we are beating Stevenage and the MK Dons.

This is because SISU made decisions that suited SISU that were not synonymous with success for Coventry.

Like I say I can only assume you believe they have changed.

For me it is simply a case that their negotiating position is better in this division, ie the cost of the rent, wages are lower when you have to prove your intent when you have to sign lots of players. It is easier to get success in this division. When you get success fans will back you whatever ruthless tactics you employ.

They have had to invest in players as it was clearly spelt out to them without doing so the council will block any attempts by them to get their fingers in the Ricoh.

so you think it was SISU's intention for us to be relegated? If it happened to be true,then surely it would be illegal? It's a good job MM isn't chairman of the club still, he'd have you up in court faster than you could stir a G & t.

You forgot to include the bizarre appointment of your best mate as well in your post as well.

 

[valiant15]

What useless dickheads employed thorn,was it your beloved sisu?

 

[lordsummerisle]

What useless dickheads employed thorn,was it your beloved sisu?

To be fair there was a big Love Thorn/Hate Sisu camp last season who didn't seem to understand that.

 

[cloughie]

we could remove fisher and put sky blue taylor in charge

operation premiership awaits

But lets not go back tracking ..............as sbt often does

Oh await the 'defend'

 

[dongonzalos]

so you think it was SISU's intention for us to be relegated? If it happened to be true,then surely it would be illegal? It's a good job MM isn't chairman of the club still, he'd have you up in court faster than you could stir a G & t.

You forgot to include the bizarre appointment of your best mate as well in your post as well.

Ha ha, I knew someone would add that one

 

[GaryPendrysEyes]

I'm not convinced by some of the arguments here. Remember life is a bit of a gamble at times and not for the cautionary tale of an accountants advice. SISU bought in as a gamble to a certain degree. They knew what it was about with Ranson. Its gone a little pear shaped but you can come back from that...look at Southampton, Norwich and before them Manchester City! Its about momentum at the club, the right dynamics in place etc etc. Presently we look to be getting that on track rapidly? Robin's is the ideal man and we compete top end in this league so I would not consider it a slim chance of promotion but a pretty real one within 2 seasons.
Then the momentum could carry that forward to the prem and big pay days. Being in business is about taking risk...logical and risky ones.
SISU's best chance is getting us up through the leagues and see where it takes you. The stadium is a side issue that will come into play later as we gain those promotions and benefit all. They need a deal on it and the council and ACL etc need to help find one. It won't be found in the courts.
SISU know when their backs are to the wall you play hard ball and so would I for my interest. Their interest equates to CCFC interest. There are many ways to skin a cat remember...just one step at a time.

So much nonsense in this. Sisu didnt buy for the long term, that's not their business as a hedge fund, they are still here because they royally fooked up. 'gone a little pear shaped' ahem they massively screwed up on due diligence and risk assessment and operations over 5 years and lost investors a lot of money, including our club and its prospects.
We are MILES away from anything approaching a premiership club and that would need very significant investment, which they dont have. This team, with 6 loanees, even with the odd low cost addition would really struggle in the Championship. The stadium is a major issue whether you are pro or anti SISU. Sisu's interest may well include the stadium acquisition as a priority above CCFC.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

we could remove fisher and put sky blue taylor in charge

operation premiership awaits

But lets not go back tracking ..............as sbt often does

Oh await the 'defend'

Your words not mine... But go, 'defend'

 

[Paxman II]

Anyone suggesting they deliberately got relegated is deluded. It happened and that was the big wake up call even for SISU. They agreed to back Thorn after listening to supporters wishes. That was a quick disaster and they quickly changed that. It proved amaster stroke. The fact is they now have to get it right and hold on.
The stadium rent would have been the same situation which ever league we were in! they do right to fight back over it and anything they do to improve their situation has to be considered and that is benefiting CCFC. No business owner wil deliberately ruin the opportunity of improvement and appointing Robin's quickly and bring in players have given us plenty of improving success so far.

I suspect those who think SISU are mere hedge fund people and don't give a darn about their investment have never been in business before? You need to study other football clubs situations before being quite so down hearted about ours.

Yes its league 1 but its where the acorn takes root again. Sometimes as in life you have to take a step back before you can go forwards.
SISU are pretty poor owners and not ideal but they are keeping the books in check and improving the football club because they have no other option. Short term or long term is not the issue...its where they are that counts and what they do to tackle it. It's not about the past or whatever they royally fcuked up!
I have no doubt they will want to move the club on when they have a stable club and maybe some interest in the Ricoh that will attract new owners. All I see is them trying to achieve that. We are a premeiership club in waiting and they will release funds to help get there....why wouldn't they? It won't be easy but as I said they have no other choice unless they attract interest from buyers before then?

I think one problem is a lot on here are dreamers hoping for that rich Arab to come along!

 

[dongonzalos]

Anyone suggesting they deliberately got relegated is deluded.


"Second time I have been called deluded this season.

The other was in September when I said this team can make the play offs."




It happened and that was the big wake up call even for SISU. They agreed to back Thorn after listening to supporters wishes. That was a quick disaster and they quickly changed that.

"Very quick 4 matches"

It proved amaster stroke. The fact is they now have to get it right and hold on.


"Master stroke? they got their second choice"


The stadium rent would have been the same situation which ever league we were in!

"Saying the average league one rent is 170k, has not feature prominently in their argument?"

they do right to fight back over it and anything they do to improve their situation has to be considered and that is benefiting CCFC.

"How many decision have they made that have benefited CCFC in the last 5 years apart from this summer?"

No business owner wil deliberately ruin the opportunity of improvement and appointing Robin's quickly and bring in players have given us plenty of improving success so far.

"Quickly? It took 4 defeats in the trot, lots of clubs have the new manager in within days!"
"If they didn't trust AT then they should have done it in the summer they clearly didn't trust him, if they got rid after 4 matches. Those 5 defeats cost us dearly."

I suspect those who think SISU are mere hedge fund people and don't give a darn about their investment have never been in business before? You need to study other football clubs situations before being quite so down hearted about ours.

Yes its league 1 but its where the acorn takes root again. Sometimes as in life you have to take a step back before you can go forwards.

"Yes and sometimes you take the step back as it suits you and not necessarily others "


SISU are pretty poor owners and not ideal

"Agree"


but they are keeping the books in check and improving the football club because they have no other option. Short term or long term is not the issue...its where they are that counts and what they do to tackle it. It's not about the past or whatever they royally fcuked up!

"Clean slate"


I have no doubt they will want to move the club on when they have a stable club and maybe some interest in the Ricoh that will attract new owners. All I see is them trying to achieve that. We are a premeiership club in waiting and they will release funds to help get there....why wouldn't they?

"Because they tried to in their first year and never have done since. League one wages to win over the council is a total different kettle of fish to the 10 million budget you would need to mount a genuine push for the prem. that's fees and wages. "

It won't be easy but as I said they have no other choice unless they attract interest from buyers before then?

I think one problem is a lot on here are dreamers hoping for that rich Arab to come along!

"Or realists about their mistrust of our owners based on history, some may consider based on the last 5 years to suggest they will invest enough to get us in the prem is both delusional and the words of a dreamer "

 

[Grendel]

"Or realists about their mistrust of our owners based on history, some may consider based on the last 5 years to suggest they will invest enough to get us in the prem is both delusional and the words if a dreamer "

Sorry which owners are we talking about sisu or mr Coventry's hapless bunch before them?

 

[dongonzalos]

Sorry which owners are we talking about sisu or mr Coventry's hapless bunch before them?

I try and just focus on our current lot.

To keep going back and back gets too painful

 

[Paxman II]

"Or realists about their mistrust of our owners based on history, some may consider based on the last 5 years to suggest they will invest enough to get us in the prem is both delusional and the words of a dreamer "

Is it me or are you not understanding what I said as largely you seem to be agreeing with me in your replies?
Pay close attention now to what is being said.....

 

[dongonzalos]

Is it me or are you not understanding what I said as largely you seem to be agreeing with me in your replies?
Pay close attention now to what is being said.....

Load and clear

Then the momentum could carry that forward to the prem and big pay days. Being in business is about taking risk...logical and risky ones.

 

[Sky Blue Kid]

@ Pax..

What part of "We are in League 1...Old div 3" under the misguidance of SISU. don't you understand
Former owners dropped bollox financially, taking us to £30m in the red, granted, but tried to give us a good football team. This group of Shysters claim to be £60-70m in debt?!?!.....Lied when saying we're buying half shares in the Stadium(We have got the money required£10m. then promptly Reneged) I wouldn't trust them with my Grans false teeth...they would probably sell them too!:facepalm:

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

@ Pax..

What part of "We are in League 1...Old div 3" under the misguidance of SISU. don't you understand
Former owners dropped bollox financially, taking us to £30m in the red, granted, but tried to give us a good football team. This group of Shysters claim to be £60-70m in debt?!?!.....Lied when saying we're buying half shares in the Stadium(We have got the money required£10m. then promptly Reneged) I wouldn't trust them with my Grans false teeth...they would probably sell them too!:facepalm:

We would've most likely had been relegated had they not took over...

 

[Sky Blue Kid]

@ SBTaylor..

I prefer the old and trusted method....facts. "What ifs" and "Most likely" aren't worth a w**k. The one true fact is..under SISU we're in League 1..No ifs, ands, buts, maybe, most likely...We are, where we are m8!

 

[Godiva]

@ Pax..

What part of "We are in League 1...Old div 3" under the misguidance of SISU. don't you understand
Former owners dropped bollox financially, taking us to £30m in the red, granted, but tried to give us a good football team. This group of Shysters claim to be £60-70m in debt?!?!.....Lied when saying we're buying half shares in the Stadium(We have got the money required£10m. then promptly Reneged) I wouldn't trust them with my Grans false teeth...they would probably sell them too!:facepalm:

@ SBTaylor..

I prefer the old and trusted method....facts. "What ifs" and "Most likely" aren't worth a w**k. The one true fact is..under SISU we're in League 1..No ifs, ands, buts, maybe, most likely...We are, where we are m8!

Interesting.
If you're a believer of facts, then why do you say that they have said the debts are 60-70m? They have never said that!
If you're a believer of facts, then why do you say they were about to buy half the stadium for £10m - they never said that!
(They said they were in talks with Higgs to buy their shares - which Higgs has confirmed, but they never said at what amount).

You accuse them of lying ... but are you not lying yourself?

 

[Sky Blue Kid]

@ Godiva..
What sort of memory span do you have? one of a Goldfish?
SISU said on at least 3 different occasions that they had the £10m to buy the half share. The first time when taking the "Reigns" the second time about 18 months ago, and recently during the talks(For want of a better word) with ACL.
Where have you been Godiva...on the Moon? or do you just hear what you want to hear!:facepalm:
Anybody else remember SISU saying this?

 

[Sky Blue Kid]

@ Godiva..

SISU have spewed out differing figures of debt...One minute it's £70-90m, then it's £30m, then £60-70m.
I quoted £60-70m because it's the "Middle figure" Try opening your Eyes and Ears Godiva, It's a couple of reasons we have these senses!....And NO I'm not lying!:facepalm:

 

[lordsummerisle]

@ Godiva..

SISU have spewed out differing figures of debt...One minute it's £70-90m, then it's £30m, then £60-70m.
I quoted £60-70m because it's the "Middle figure" Try opening your Eyes and Ears Godiva, It's a couple of reasons we have these senses!....And NO I'm not lying!:facepalm:

Don't think you're lying myself, just educationally sub-normal.

Don't think I;ve seem most of those figures you've banded about, think seen about £40 million as a figure which seems to be the consensus.

 

[coundonskyblue]

<p>

We would've most likely had been relegated had they not took over...

Which with hindsight would have been better, as we went down anyway.

 

[Godiva]

@ Godiva..
What sort of memory span do you have? one of a Goldfish?
SISU said on at least 3 different occasions that they had the £10m to buy the half share. The first time when taking the "Reigns" the second time about 18 months ago, and recently during the talks(For want of a better word) with ACL.
Where have you been Godiva...on the Moon? or do you just hear what you want to hear!:facepalm:
Anybody else remember SISU saying this?

Oh, I must have missed it then ... can you provide a link to where they say they have £10m to spend on the Higgs shares?

I don't thnk you can, because they have never expressed any number.

You point to when they took over - at that time Ranson said they would 1. Stabilize the finanses 2. Bring promotion to PL 3. Buy the Higgs shares.
They never mentioned a number.

And btw - I believe the club have/had an option to buy the shares at £6m.

 

[Godiva]

@ Godiva..

SISU have spewed out differing figures of debt...One minute it's £70-90m, then it's £30m, then £60-70m.
I quoted £60-70m because it's the "Middle figure" Try opening your Eyes and Ears Godiva, It's a couple of reasons we have these senses!....And NO I'm not lying!:facepalm:

Ok - so you don't believe in facts then?

The debt is around £40m - it has never been told to be £60 or higher.

 

[Sky Blue Kid]

The new investors insist they have £30million ready to pump into the club with £10m set aside to strengthen Andy Thorn’s threadbare squad and help build a successful team capable of getting back to the Premier League.
They also hope to direct £10m towards buying back half of the Ricoh Arena with the rest of the money to fund the club’s ongoing losses.


Read More http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/co...eover-questions-92746-29299361/#ixzz2H0t4SvjU​

 

[Sky Blue Kid]

The new investors insist they have £30million ready to pump into the club with £10m set aside to strengthen Andy Thorn’s threadbare squad and help build a successful team capable of getting back to the Premier League.
They also hope to direct £10m towards buying back half of the Ricoh Arena with the rest of the money to fund the club’s ongoing losses.


Read More http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/co...eover-questions-92746-29299361/#ixzz2H0t4SvjU​

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

The new investors insist they have £30million ready to pump into the club with £10m set aside to strengthen Andy Thorn’s threadbare squad and help build a successful team capable of getting back to the Premier League.
They also hope to direct £10m towards buying back half of the Ricoh Arena with the rest of the money to fund the club’s ongoing losses.


Read More http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/co...eover-questions-92746-29299361/#ixzz2H0t4SvjU​

They certainly talked a good game, but didn't put their money where their mouth was.

 

[Godiva]

The new investors insist they have £30million ready to pump into the club with £10m set aside to strengthen Andy Thorn’s threadbare squad and help build a successful team capable of getting back to the Premier League.
They also hope to direct £10m towards buying back half of the Ricoh Arena with the rest of the money to fund the club’s ongoing losses.


Read More http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/co...eover-questions-92746-29299361/#ixzz2H0t4SvjU​

That is Hoffman saying he has £10m to buy the Higgs shares ... not sisu.

 

[torchomatic]

Ha! Great article: GARY Hoffman and his investors have said they are more than happy to answer all the questions Coventry City require in order to get his proposed takeover back on track.

CCFC: Gary, do you have the money
GH: Er....
CCFC: Gary, do you have the money
GH: Er....
CCFC: Gary, do you have the money
GH: Er....oh look you can nearly see the trains from this window.

Read More http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/co...eover-questions-92746-29299361/#ixzz2H0v0GPB0

Read More http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/co...eover-questions-92746-29299361/#ixzz2H0t4SvjU[/COLOR][/LEFT]

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

<p>

Which with hindsight would have been better, as we went down anyway.

We don't know what would've happened though, to say with such confidence it "would've been better" is wrong, we don't know if we would've done a Pompey, Luton, Plymouth etc.

We have got relegated, brought a whole new team, got a new manager, and we're on the up.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

@ SBTaylor..

I prefer the old and trusted method....facts. "What ifs" and "Most likely" aren't worth a w**k. The one true fact is..under SISU we're in League 1..No ifs, ands, buts, maybe, most likely...We are, where we are m8!

Had we gone into admin, which was supposedly 30 minutes away from doing so, we would've got relegated that season!

That is worth something.

 

[Sky Blue Kid]

Quoting Gary Hoffman...
"All Coventry fans, including me, are frustrated by that. That's why I am talking to potential investors who can either help Sisu or replace them.
"The fact is, whatever they talk about, they have been incapable of buying the stadium over the last three years from a relationship and money point of view.
"Right from the start they were going to buy it when they first came in but reneged on it at the last minute."
Ex-professional player Ranson brokered Sisu's takeover and then became chairman to use his football knowledge to advise them.
But he became increasingly marginalised as star players like Scott Dann were sold and manager Aidy Boothroyd sacked last month.
Hoffman added: "There has been unfair criticism of Ray Ranson. He has not been given the tools to do the job.
"He has put his heart, soul and some money into the club.
"He leaves with his head held high. Players have been sold against his wishes:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

Ps..Lord Summerisle, you don't do so bad youself, for a retard

 

[Godiva]

Quoting Gary Hoffman...
"All Coventry fans, including me, are frustrated by that. That's why I am talking to potential investors who can either help Sisu or replace them.
"The fact is, whatever they talk about, they have been incapable of buying the stadium over the last three years from a relationship and money point of view.
"Right from the start they were going to buy it when they first came in but reneged on it at the last minute."
Ex-professional player Ranson brokered Sisu's takeover and then became chairman to use his football knowledge to advise them.
But he became increasingly marginalised as star players like Scott Dann were sold and manager Aidy Boothroyd sacked last month.
Hoffman added: "There has been unfair criticism of Ray Ranson. He has not been given the tools to do the job.
"He has put his heart, soul and some money into the club.
"He leaves with his head held high. Players have been sold against his wishes:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

Ps..Lord Summerisle, you don't do so bad youself, for a retard

This is what Ranson said immidiately after taking the chair (from the FAQ 3 in the finanse section):
We want to gain financial stability and a platform to achieve the clubs commercial and sporting aspirations, which is promotion to the Premiership followed by repurchase of a 50% share in the Ricoh Arena home”

Hoffman was one of the Trinity Brothers 5 years ago ... Ranson and Elliot were the other two. The three of them ran the club for three years.

So you can't really trust Hoffman on this. He left in anger and has been plotting his revenge ever since. He has raised hope by the fans and delivered just as much damage doing so as he did when he was effectively running the club.

 

[Sky Blue Kid]

The council has yet to receive any dividend from its 50 per cent share. Any profits would first be used to pay back a £21million ACL loan to Yorkshire Bank. The loan was originally taken out by the council to rescue the Ricoh project in 2003 and ensure the stadium was built on the contaminated former Foleshill gasworks site.
Development of the “leisure land” – including more hotels to support the stadium’s hotel and conferences, and events including concerts – is seen as crucial in raising Ricoh revenue. The council also wants the development to create jobs in return for taxpayer investment in the disadvantaged north-east of Coventry.
The 2003 deal gave the council and football club 50 per cent each of ACL shares. But the Sky Blues sold its half-stake to the Higgs charity in 2007 for a reported £6million, to stave off a threat of administration.
A complicated formula giving the football club an option to buy back the shares has long been rumoured to price Higg’s charity’s 50 per cent at £10million.
The Higgs charity’s Peter Knatchbull-Hugessen told the Telegraph in June Sisu’s initial rejected offer had been outside the formula.
News of the headline agreement comes days after Daniel Gidney resigned as ACL chief executive, and was understood to be increasingly disillusioned over the prospect of a deal with Sisu over stadium ownership.
Coun Mutton said the council still had a “not for sale” policy on its 50 per cent share.
But he added, if “a fantastic offer came in” for the council’s shares, the full council could vote on a change of policy.
Tim Fisher, Sky Blues chief executive, said: “We have made an undertaking not to discuss this matter publically. It is a highly-sensitive commercial negotiation which all sides have undertaken to conclude before speaking to other parties. On the issue of financial debt and creditor profile of the football club, I am more than happy to go through the appropriate details with Coun Mutton in person and in private.”


Read More http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/co...na-stadium-deal-92746-31880394/#ixzz2H1CyFdPd​

The only mention of £6m is when CCFC SOLD their shares to ACL.