Trump is my favourite comedian of the year already (19 Viewers)

[Grendel]

Is Trump's deal worse than Obama's?

Did the Treaty of Versailles lead to 1939? Was chamberlain right or wrong?

Thoughts?

 

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[PVA]

Fucking hell. That's peak Grendel right there. The contrarian's contrarian

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Again I am not talking about Trump I am talking about a deal that many observers thought would create huge problems and do nothing to stop the Iran nuclear programme

You can squeal contrarian and get laughing emojis out all you like but that is an opinion shared by many people

Dart is right. When challenged you have no ability to discuss. So why post at all.

You have shown on the football side when things are not going to plan you resort to childish tantrums - you just do not like people offering alternative views

‘Many observers’. Who?

Iran was independently and also by the US itself confirmed to be fully co-operating with the terms.

We’ll leave the ad hominem stuff for now, but you have the habit of being rattled when your schtick is pointed out directly. Refuse to answer direct questions as Dartman has done 3 times and there’s nowhere else to go.

It’s the habit of several-make sniggering false statements then run off when challenged. Not me unable to tolerate different opinions I assure you.

 

[Grendel]

Fucking hell. That's peak Grendel right there. The contrarian's contrarian

You look at thinks as goodies and baddies like John Wayne and the Indians so I am trying to simplify it.

You posed an absurd question

The question I posed would be a historical essay. So if I was posed the question you asked I’d answer thus.

“The original idea to make a deal with Iran was foolhardy and ignored the regimes tyranny abroad and its treatment of its own citizens. It gave it a legitimacy and an ability to negotiate with a country it openly admitted was Satan and wanted to destroy.

The removal of sanctions and repayment of the money allegedly owed by a failed military deal effectively made Iran a power broker in the arrangement. It gave the regime a foot in the door.

The arrangement caused Israel to feel under considerable threat and embolden its leaders look at military protectionism on an even greater scale. What Obama failed to acknowledge was that the freedom of expenditure created by his release of sanctions allowed huge expenditure on other weapons and support to terrorist regimes - notably Hamas - to create further threat in the region.

It’s worth noting only 21% of US citizens in a poll supported the deal - astonishing given the support of the Obama administration.

The deal itself only was over a ten year period and allowed Iran an option to withdraw and start uranium enhancement with a one year notification.

Trumps withdrawal was always part of his election strategy. The most telling aspect was the subsequent democrat administration supporting the Trump strategy and acknowledging that it could not negotiate on returning to the arrangement unless the Iranian government restricted non nuclear military expenditure. It was a tacit acknowledgment of the flaws of the original deal.

The escalation of military conflict between Iran and its enemies - most notably Israel - were as a consequence of the original deal.

Many people use simplistic arguments about historic events - did Versailles cause world war 2?

No one can know but the treaty emboldened nationalism and the regime and so chamberlain was left to try and stop the tyranny rising from the arrangement.

You cannot just argue which is a worse deal - I would argue was the original deal the cause of subsequent action”

My view PVA - Shouldn’t we behaving debates like this and not childlike emojis and gifs?

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Which doesn't actually say it would stop Iran constructing nuclear weapons and it does not also address the ramifications of the removal of sanctions and unregulated weapon build ups.

It focuses on assumed risk management and Iranian co-operation

And what deal (that would be agreed to by Iran) do you think would have completely stopped them obtaining nuclear weapons?

You'd have to be a fantasist to think that was actually possible, and the best thing you could get was slowing in down, limiting the amount they could enrich and knowing exactly how much they had.

That's roughly what Obama got. So, as you've been asked many times before, what about Trump's 'deal' is better and would stop Iran constructing nuclear weapons. If the 10 points mentioned are correct how do those prevent Iran obtaining nuclear weapons? Those starting points are a huge US loss compared to what they had before.

Just admit Trump is an idiot lunatic who doesn't have the faintest idea what he's doing. His only tactic is to bully and it's not working.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Trump is really acting out the fantasies of all the previous US presidents pre WW1. They have all tried to pretend some kind of empathy with Western allies but all have considered us inferior and wanted total domination.

Kennedy and Nixon were the closest examples. They would not have entered either World War militarily unless they were threatened. They are not really any better than China but are not the same in terms of culture and behaviours to its population. Its a ruthless and brutal regime.

Interestingly some political correspondent said that he saw Trump as a transparent truth of what all Americans really think - America First, Middle and Last is all it thinks about and fuck anyone else who stands in its way.

I don't disagree that most American's think US first, second and last, but always makes me smile when other countries do the same and Americans moan like a bitch because they're not getting what they want.

'We put the US first, and everyone else should put the US first too'

 

[Grendel]

And what deal (that would be agreed to by Iran) do you think would have completely stopped them obtaining nuclear weapons?

You'd have to be a fantasist to think that was actually possible, and the best thing you could get was slowing in down, limiting the amount they could enrich and knowing exactly how much they had.

That's roughly what Obama got. So, as you've been asked many times before, what about Trump's 'deal' is better and would stop Iran constructing nuclear weapons. If the 10 points mentioned are correct how do those prevent Iran obtaining nuclear weapons? Those starting points are a huge US loss compared to what they had before.

Just admit Trump is an idiot lunatic who doesn't have the faintest idea what he's doing. His only tactic is to bully and it's not working.

Sigh - my point is there shouldn’t have been a deal at all in the first place

 

[Sick Boy]

Surprise, surprise it’s already in doubt.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Sigh - my point is there shouldn’t have been a deal at all in the first place

There has to be

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Sigh - my point is there shouldn’t have been a deal at all in the first place

So how would that have prevented Iran getting a nuclear weapon? Or are you advocating that the US should have started a pre-emptive war to stop them, which would be heavily frowned upon by international law.

I was going to ask how would you feel if the likes of Russia or China did the same in trying to prevent another country getting a nuclear weapon, but then I remembered your stance on Ukraine, so I guess for you might is right.

Though in that case I hope you enjoy our new Chinese overlords.

 

[Grendel]

There has to be

Why?

 

[Grendel]

So how would that have prevented Iran getting a nuclear weapon? Or are you advocating that the US should have started a pre-emptive war to stop them, which would be heavily frowned upon by international law.

I was going to ask how would you feel if the likes of Russia or China did the same in trying to prevent another country getting a nuclear weapon, but then I remembered your stance on Ukraine, so I guess for you might is right.

Though in that case I hope you enjoy our new Chinese overlords.

They were looking at building weapons in the 1990’s - Korea are assembling them - Iran could even within the deal do so if it gave a years notice!

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Sigh - my point is there shouldn’t have been a deal at all in the first place

It was doing what it set out to do. Israel have had designs on attacking Iran for decades-and there have been bogus claims about how close they are to nukes for just as long.

 

[Grendel]

It was doing what it set out to do. Israel have had designs on attacking Iran for decades-and there have been bogus claims about how close they are to nukes for just as long.

Haven’t Iran a declared aim to destroy Isreal and wipe it off the face of the earth?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Haven’t Iran a declared aim to destroy Isreal and wipe it off the face of the earth?

They are mutual enemies.

 

[Grendel]

They are mutual enemies.

Wow

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Why?

That’s how a global world works

 

[Grendel]

That’s how a global world works

We have no nuclear deal with North Korea last time I checked

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

We have no nuclear deal with North Korea last time I checked

Are there no sanctions on North Korea or did I not check properly

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Wow

Your argument is that the deal which was working to get Iran to co-operate on restricting its nuclear program in fact emboldened Israel to want to start attacking Iran.

My point is simply this has been going on for decades-Israel would be doing this with or without the deal under this president.

 

[Grendel]

Your argument is that the deal which was working to get Iran to co-operate on restricting its nuclear program in fact emboldened Israel to want to start attacking Iran.

My point is simply this has been going on for decades-Israel would be doing this with or without the deal under this president.

I think it’s astonishing - genuinely - you try and create an equal argument for Iran’s hatred of Jews and try and legitimise it. Yeah it’s astonishing