Trump is my favourite comedian of the year already (15 Viewers)

[Grendel]

You asked what was good about it. The obvious answer is that it got Iran to comply with restrictions on its nuclear programme, that was the main objective.

Since Trump pulled the US out of the agreement and started bombing the country and killing its leaders, they have instead been given every reason to try and get a nuclear weapon as soon as possible.

What will likely end up happening is that another version of the JPCOA will be signed but with more terms in Iran's favour.

It's a monumental fuck up and your contrarianism is showing big time if you claim otherwise.

Sorry but again many saw it as an appeasement to the regime. You can’t keep going on about contrary behaviour. It gets you a like from the stooge PVA but only one fifth of the US population at the time agreed with it.

Historians will make a decision on its validity and some will conclude this outcome was entirely predictable as they will argue it enabled the Israeli regime to become emboldened as Iran used the extra income to weaponise itself against them.

Obama had a terrible foreign policy record in the Middle East. You can’t decide all by yourself your opinion is a fact when many experts would blow your argument apart.

 

---

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Sorry but again many saw it as an appeasement to the regime. You can’t keep going on about contrary behaviour. It gets you a like from the stooge PVA but only one fifth of the US population at the time agreed with it.

Historians will make a decision on its validity and some will conclude this outcome was entirely predictable as they will argue it enabled the Israeli regime to become emboldened as Iran used the extra income to weaponise itself against them.

Obama had a terrible foreign policy record in the Middle East. You can’t decide all by yourself your opinion is a fact when many experts would blow your argument apart.

I haven’t gone on about stating my opinion as fact, I’ve stated facts as facts. The nuclear deal was working as designed, that’s a fact supported even by the Trump administration in 2017. Your take in the second paragraph is pure contrarianism.

What % of the US population supports this war?

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Trump: "I agree to suspend the bombing and attack of Iran for a period of two weeks.

This will be a double sided CEASEFIRE! The reason for doing so is that we have already met and exceeded all Military objectives, and are very far along with a definitive Agreement concerning Longterm PEACE with Iran, and PEACE in the Middle East.

We received a 10 point proposal from Iran, and believe it is a workable basis on which to negotiate.

Almost all of the various points of past contention have been agreed to between the United States and Iran, but a two week period will allow the Agreement to be finalized and consummated.

On behalf of the United States of America, as President, and also representing the Countries of the Middle East, it is an Honor to have this Longterm problem close to resolution."

=================

Iran's 10-point conditions that the US has accepted (allegedly):

The US is fundamentally committed to:

Non-aggression
Continuation of Iran's control over the Strait of Hormuz
Acceptance of enrichment
Lifting all primary sanctions
Lifting all secondary sanctions
Termination of all UN Security Council resolutions
Termination of all IAEA Board of Governors resolutions
Payment of compensation to Iran
Withdrawal of US combat forces from the region
Cessation of war on all fronts, including against the heroic Islamic Resistance of Lebanon.

via @PressTV

If that's real, even as a starting point, then it looks poor for the US. Pretty much amounts to capitulation. Iran would have more than they did under previous arrangements.

Most likely it's Trump threatening people and expecting them to back down, but they haven't and now he needs a route out and is selling this as a win as he thinks everyone is stupid and won't realise it's terrible. Of course his MAGA base and Fox will lap it up.

 

[Northants Sky Blue]

Here's Sky News take on the deal ie. Iran have Trumps trousers down. What other conclusion is there!?

 

[PVA]

Sorry but again many saw it as an appeasement to the regime. You can’t keep going on about contrary behaviour. It gets you a like from the stooge PVA but only one fifth of the US population at the time agreed with it.

Historians will make a decision on its validity and some will conclude this outcome was entirely predictable as they will argue it enabled the Israeli regime to become emboldened as Iran used the extra income to weaponise itself against them.

Obama had a terrible foreign policy record in the Middle East. You can’t decide all by yourself your opinion is a fact when many experts would blow your argument apart.

It doesn't matter how good or bad Obama's deal was, it doesn't matter how many people agreed with it at the time or not - it's better than the one at the table at the moment.

So what was the point of the war?

What point are you trying to make?

 

[wingy]

It doesn't matter how good or bad Obama's deal was, it doesn't matter how many people agreed with it at the time or not - it's better than the one at the table at the moment.

So what was the point of the war?

What point are you trying to make?

Economic distortion as much as anything IMO.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Economic distortion as much as anything IMO.

Trying to spin what Trump has done as the inevitable consequence of Obama’s deal is a take even for him.

Up there with arguing that Putin was provoked into invading Ukraine.

 

[wingy]

Trying to spin what Trump has done as the inevitable consequence of Obama’s deal is a take even for him.

Up there with arguing that Putin was provoked into invading Ukraine.

It'll be somewhere else getting it shortly I'm sure,piracy is the aim.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

It'll be somewhere else getting it shortly I'm sure,piracy is the aim.

Pirate is a good way of describing him and his regime to be honest.

 

[Super Frank]

This is not going to end well.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

No defending trumps actions here
Are Iran a danger absolutely
Were they an imminent danger to USA - no

 

[Grendel]

I haven’t gone on about stating my opinion as fact, I’ve stated facts as facts. The nuclear deal was working as designed, that’s a fact supported even by the Trump administration in 2017. Your take in the second paragraph is pure contrarianism.

What % of the US population supports this war?

Its not a fact - when you get challenged you cannot answer

The second paragraph is a deflection as has zero to do with the discussion - though more support the war I think than the Obamas deal.

Captain Dart is correct - when challenged you have no cognitive or valid responses

 

[Grendel]

It doesn't matter how good or bad Obama's deal was, it doesn't matter how many people agreed with it at the time or not - it's better than the one at the table at the moment.

Of course it clearly matters - there are many people on both sides of the political spectrum who hold the opinion the "deal" has led us to where we are now.

What I find fascinating is you think the removal of sanctions from Iran was a positive step forward

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Its not a fact - when you get challenged you cannot answer

The second paragraph is a deflection as has zero to do with the discussion - though more support the war I think than the Obamas deal.

Captain Dart is correct - when challenged you have no cognitive or valid responses

The supprt numbers for each just shows middle America is full of morons and racists.

 

[PVA]

Of course it clearly matters - there are many people on both sides of the political spectrum who hold the opinion the "deal" has led us to where we are now.

What I find fascinating is you think the removal of sanctions from Iran was a positive step forward

I never said anything about sanctions.

But again, the initial basis of this new deal includes lifting of sanctions. So it's still a worse deal.

 

[Grendel]

Trying to spin what Trump has done as the inevitable consequence of Obama’s deal is a take even for him.

Up there with arguing that Putin was provoked into invading Ukraine.

Again I am not talking about Trump I am talking about a deal that many observers thought would create huge problems and do nothing to stop the Iran nuclear programme

You can squeal contrarian and get laughing emojis out all you like but that is an opinion shared by many people

Dart is right. When challenged you have no ability to discuss. So why post at all.

You have shown on the football side when things are not going to plan you resort to childish tantrums - you just do not like people offering alternative views

 

[Grendel]

I never said anything about sanctions.

But again, the initial basis of this new deal includes lifting of sanctions. So it's still a worse deal.

The original deal was purely based on getting rid of sanctions and then allowing the spend to go onto funding ballistic missiles.

Actually show me any observer who said the original deal would do a thing to stop the Iranian nuclear programme

 

[PVA]

Actually show me any observer who said the original deal would do a thing to stop the Iranian nuclear programme

Well here's 70 of them for starters:

70-Plus Nuclear Nonproliferation Experts Announce Support for Iran Nuclear Deal | Arms Control Association

www.armscontrol.org

 

[Grendel]

Well here's 70 of them for starters:

70-Plus Nuclear Nonproliferation Experts Announce Support for Iran Nuclear Deal | Arms Control Association

www.armscontrol.org

Which doesn't actually say it would stop Iran constructing nuclear weapons and it does not also address the ramifications of the removal of sanctions and unregulated weapon build ups.

It focuses on assumed risk management and Iranian co-operation

 

[PVA]

Honestly what's the point, you either move the goalposts or fail to see what's right in front of you (intentionally or otherwise).

 

[chiefdave]

Were they an imminent danger to USA - no

There was a voxpop segment on BBC News. Mostly what you'd expect, ranging from concern at the consequences of Trumps actions to he's a dangerous lunatic who needs to be removed from office. But there was a couple of people still right behind him, the reason both gave was that a nuclear strike on the US by Iran was imminent.

 

[Grendel]

Honestly what's the point, you either move the goalposts or fail to see what's right in front of you (intentionally or otherwise).

Er its not moving the goalposts - I asked specifically show anything that said the deal would stop the Iranian Nuclear Programme.

You've googled and listed a group that supports the principle of an arrangement but even the text concludes that

"these restrictions ensure that Iran’s capability to produce enough bomb-grade uranium sufficient for one weapon would be extended to approximately 12 months for a decade or more."

In other words its a 10 year deal which the Iranians had to give notice of one year before it started building a bomb.

Its even there on the link you provided

 

[Grendel]

Even Biden realised the folly of the deal as it essentially gave the Iranians free reign to spend unlimited amounts on ballistic missiles and massive arms spending with the money released by the sanction capitulation. He insisted that the deal to be resurrected had to include limiting these supplies which is why he also would not re-engage with the regime.

 

[Super Frank]

No defending trumps actions here
Are Iran a danger absolutely
Were they an imminent danger to USA - no

They weren’t before. Trumps saber rattling has no doubt upset them.

Russia, Iran & Turkiye may all have a united response. Hopefully I’m just worried about nothing.

 

[PVA]

Er its not moving the goalposts - I asked specifically show anything that said the deal would stop the Iranian Nuclear Programme.

You've googled and listed a group that supports the principle of an arrangement but even the text concludes that

"these restrictions ensure that Iran’s capability to produce enough bomb-grade uranium sufficient for one weapon would be extended to approximately 12 months for a decade or more."

In other words its a 10 year deal which the Iranians had to give notice of one year before it started building a bomb.

Its even there on the link you provided

You said: "Actually show me any observer who said the original deal would do a thing to stop the Iranian nuclear programme"

I showed you 70 people saying it would do several things to stop the program.


And again, a point you still haven't addressed - the new deal is likely to be worse than Obama's. So given how bad you seem to think Obama's deal was, surely you will admit that Trump's is an appalling strategic failure?

 

[Grendel]

They weren’t before. Trumps saber rattling has no doubt upset them.

Russia, Iran & Turkiye may all have a united response. Hopefully I’m just worried about nothing.

Trump is really acting out the fantasies of all the previous US presidents pre WW1. They have all tried to pretend some kind of empathy with Western allies but all have considered us inferior and wanted total domination.

Kennedy and Nixon were the closest examples. They would not have entered either World War militarily unless they were threatened. They are not really any better than China but are not the same in terms of culture and behaviours to its population. Its a ruthless and brutal regime.

Interestingly some political correspondent said that he saw Trump as a transparent truth of what all Americans really think - America First, Middle and Last is all it thinks about and fuck anyone else who stands in its way.

 

[Grendel]

You said: "Actually show me any observer who said the original deal would do a thing to stop the Iranian nuclear programme"

I showed you 70 people saying it would do several things to stop the program.


And again, a point you still haven't addressed - the new deal is likely to be worse than Obama's. So given how bad you seem to think Obama's deal was, surely you will admit that Trump's is an appalling strategic failure?

They have not said it would stop the programme? They admit it doesnt.

I think you have forgot that Joe Biden was President and he decided the deal was folly

 

[tisza]

They weren’t before. Trumps saber rattling has no doubt upset them.

Russia, Iran & Turkiye may all have a united response. Hopefully I’m just worried about nothing.

Turkey certainly isn't going to be in favour of any deal that strengthens Iran's position in the region.

 

[PVA]

They have not said it would stop the programme? They admit it doesnt.

I think you have forgot that Joe Biden was President and he decided the deal was folly

But but Biden, but but Obama

Trump has fucked it, it's clear for all to see.

 

[Grendel]

But but Biden, but but Obama

Trump has fucked it, it's clear for all to see.

Amazing political insight and debate

 

[Captain Dart]

I've told you what I think. What I've asked 3 times is what you think happened instead.

Wouldn't you like to know.

 

[PVA]

Amazing political insight and debate

Well I'm trying to simplify it for you.

You've said how bad Obama's deal is but can't bring yourself to comment on Trump's, because you know it's worse and once again you've backed yourself into a corner.

 

[Grendel]

Well I'm trying to simplify it for you.

You've said how bad Obama's deal is but can't bring yourself to comment on Trump's, because you know it's worse and once again you've backed yourself into a corner.

Ok mate

 

[PVA]

Hormuz Strait seemingly closed again, because of Israel still fucking about and firing missiles everywhere.

 

[PVA]

Ok mate

Is Trump's deal worse than Obama's?