The EU: In, out, shake it all about....

As of right now, how are thinking of voting? In or out

  • Remain

    Votes: 23 37.1%
  • Leave

    Votes: 35 56.5%
  • Undecided

    Votes: 3 4.8%
  • Not registered or not intention to vote

    Votes: 1 1.6%

  • Total voters
    62
  • Poll closed .

CCFCSteve

Well-Known Member
Aug 11, 2011
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PVA - Im not getting into the whole argument again but I don’t think every remainer (prominent or not) said the NI issue was project fear at all.

The protocol (which I’m not comfortable with as it stands) was only agreed last year so how could they ?! From memory the government believed they could reach a tech/trusted trader type solution for Irish trade, which they obviously couldn’t as the EU wanted physical checks and Johnson agreed to these in the Irish sea (a mistake I think but probably better than aborder between NI and Ireland) Also, people appear to forget the EU was happy to unilaterally activate article 16 of the protocol a few weeks ago when it suited them (obviously so concerned about the border on Ireland/GFA/peace) so let’s not pretend they haven’t tried to use the NI situation for their own purposes

I don’t think the protocol is even operational currently ?! to blame this behaviour solely on it is disingenuous and attempts to justify/condone terrorism. I don’t claim to understand all of the complexities surrounding NI but just from reading some articles there appears to be plenty of other things at play (in addition to the protocol), a funeral attended by 2k during Covid restrictions last year inc SF ministers and where NI Police/PPS took no action at the time or after, a major one. As well as general concerns about police bias. Not to mention unionist areas feeling their get the rough end of the deal/Covid etc. People also appear to forget that NI didn’t have a functioning government for 3+ years so to pretend everything was going along perfectly is crazy.

That’s not to say a sensible solution doesn’t needs to be found regarding the protocol and quickly, unfortunately even if one is found I’ve got a feeling these problems could well remain
 

skybluetony176

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Aug 2, 2013
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PVA - Im not getting into the whole argument again but I don’t think every remainer (prominent or not) said the NI issue was project fear at all.

The protocol (which I’m not comfortable with as it stands) was only agreed last year so how could they ?! From memory the government believed they could reach a tech/trusted trader type solution for Irish trade, which they obviously couldn’t as the EU wanted physical checks and Johnson agreed to these in the Irish sea (a mistake I think but probably better than aborder between NI and Ireland) Also, people appear to forget the EU was happy to unilaterally activate article 16 of the protocol a few weeks ago when it suited them (obviously so concerned about the border on Ireland/GFA/peace) so let’s not pretend they haven’t tried to use the NI situation for their own purposes

I don’t think the protocol is even operational currently ?! to blame this behaviour solely on it is disingenuous and attempts to justify/condone terrorism. I don’t claim to understand all of the complexities surrounding NI but just from reading some articles there appears to be plenty of other things at play (in addition to the protocol), a funeral attended by 2k during Covid restrictions last year inc SF ministers and where NI Police/PPS took no action at the time or after, a major one. As well as general concerns about police bias. Not to mention unionist areas feeling their get the rough end of the deal/Covid etc. People also appear to forget that NI didn’t have a functioning government for 3+ years so to pretend everything was going along perfectly is crazy.

That’s not to say a sensible solution doesn’t needs to be found regarding the protocol and quickly, unfortunately even if one is found I’ve got a feeling these problems could well remain
Mmmm.

The break up of the Union was very much labelled “project fear”. Northern Ireland is well and truly on that path thanks to Brexit.

Boris thought dealing with the border on the island of Ireland was as simple as exiting/entering the congestion zone in London. He actually likened it to crossing from one borough in London to another borough in London. A simple view to a complicated issue from a simple man. The EU was never happy to trigger article 16. It was discussed at low level and never got any further having being quickly dismissed. The Brexit press wet their pants and then a couple of weeks later cheerleaded Boris to do the same.

The tensions were brewing and skirmishes happening long before the funeral and PSNI bias is always going to be unionist simply for the fact that it’s still predominantly Protestant.
 

skybluetony176

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Aug 2, 2013
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Yeah I just saw that too! It was inevitable that remainers would be blamed. Just blame anyone except themselves.

Of course this whole mess is the fault of the people who didn’t want it, never did, and still don’t. And definitely not the fault of those who voted it, or the government that agreed it, no siree.
No ownership of vote from leavers. The signs were there.
 
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PVA

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Apr 22, 2011
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PVA - Im not getting into the whole argument again but I don’t think every remainer (prominent or not) said the NI issue was project fear at all.

The protocol (which I’m not comfortable with as it stands) was only agreed last year so how could they ?! From memory the government believed they could reach a tech/trusted trader type solution for Irish trade, which they obviously couldn’t as the EU wanted physical checks and Johnson agreed to these in the Irish sea (a mistake I think but probably better than aborder between NI and Ireland) Also, people appear to forget the EU was happy to unilaterally activate article 16 of the protocol a few weeks ago when it suited them (obviously so concerned about the border on Ireland/GFA/peace) so let’s not pretend they haven’t tried to use the NI situation for their own purposes

I don’t think the protocol is even operational currently ?! to blame this behaviour solely on it is disingenuous and attempts to justify/condone terrorism. I don’t claim to understand all of the complexities surrounding NI but just from reading some articles there appears to be plenty of other things at play (in addition to the protocol), a funeral attended by 2k during Covid restrictions last year inc SF ministers and where NI Police/PPS took no action at the time or after, a major one. As well as general concerns about police bias. Not to mention unionist areas feeling their get the rough end of the deal/Covid etc. People also appear to forget that NI didn’t have a functioning government for 3+ years so to pretend everything was going along perfectly is crazy.

That’s not to say a sensible solution doesn’t needs to be found regarding the protocol and quickly, unfortunately even if one is found I’ve got a feeling these problems could well remain
An excellent thread by Patrick Kielty, of all people.

It was so obvious this was coming. Johnson assured everyone there would be no border. Even sticking to that lie when it was in writing, in his own deal, that there would be a border and checks on goods. He continued to lie about it even when it was there in black and white. And now look.


 

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
24,422
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PVA - Im not getting into the whole argument again but I don’t think every remainer (prominent or not) said the NI issue was project fear at all.

The protocol (which I’m not comfortable with as it stands) was only agreed last year so how could they ?! From memory the government believed they could reach a tech/trusted trader type solution for Irish trade, which they obviously couldn’t as the EU wanted physical checks and Johnson agreed to these in the Irish sea (a mistake I think but probably better than aborder between NI and Ireland) Also, people appear to forget the EU was happy to unilaterally activate article 16 of the protocol a few weeks ago when it suited them (obviously so concerned about the border on Ireland/GFA/peace) so let’s not pretend they haven’t tried to use the NI situation for their own purposes

I don’t think the protocol is even operational currently ?! to blame this behaviour solely on it is disingenuous and attempts to justify/condone terrorism. I don’t claim to understand all of the complexities surrounding NI but just from reading some articles there appears to be plenty of other things at play (in addition to the protocol), a funeral attended by 2k during Covid restrictions last year inc SF ministers and where NI Police/PPS took no action at the time or after, a major one. As well as general concerns about police bias. Not to mention unionist areas feeling their get the rough end of the deal/Covid etc. People also appear to forget that NI didn’t have a functioning government for 3+ years so to pretend everything was going along perfectly is crazy.

That’s not to say a sensible solution doesn’t needs to be found regarding the protocol and quickly, unfortunately even if one is found I’ve got a feeling these problems could well remain
The tech/trusted trader solution was never serious and just bluster.
The fact you've mentioned it just shows they cancome out with any old shite and people will believe it.
People called it up for the bollocks it isat the time. Guess what response they got?

This was always going to happen. Let's not forget customs officers have recently been getting what the police described as credible threats from loyalists.
This is on Johnson and anyone who supported him.
 
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skybluetony176

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Aug 2, 2013
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An excellent thread by Patrick Kielty, of all people.

It was so obvious this was coming. Johnson assured everyone there would be no border. Even sticking to that lie when it was in writing, in his own deal, that there would be a border and checks on goods. He continued to lie about it even when it was there in black and white. And now look.


He’s a victim of the troubles. His dad was killed by loyalists paramilitaries for simply being a prominent Catholic businessman. He done a documentary for the BBC called My dad, the piece process and Me. Good watch. He interviewed Arlene Foster in it who herself lost her father in the troubles and unlike Patrick Kielty voted against the GFA in the referendum.
Patrick Kielty is someone everyone should listen too on this.
 
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skybluetony176

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Aug 2, 2013
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On what basis can Remain voters be blamed for the Troubles in the north?
Negative thinking. Remainers are some sort of witches with supernatural abilities that can change the outcome simply with the weapon of thought control. Why we didn’t think to use this power to influence the referendum in the first place given how powerful it is has yet to be addressed.
 

skybluetony176

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Aug 2, 2013
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On this basis, apparently...

(Oh and remember when Grendel called Dan Hodges 'excellent'?)



It isn’t even true. Mays idea of compromise was that the opposition vote for her deal no questions asked.

Also the unionist didn’t support the backstop so even if it had have got through we would still be where we are on the ground in Northern Ireland.
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
Jul 11, 2011
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PVA - Im not getting into the whole argument again but I don’t think every remainer (prominent or not) said the NI issue was project fear at all.

The protocol (which I’m not comfortable with as it stands) was only agreed last year so how could they ?! From memory the government believed they could reach a tech/trusted trader type solution for Irish trade, which they obviously couldn’t as the EU wanted physical checks and Johnson agreed to these in the Irish sea (a mistake I think but probably better than aborder between NI and Ireland) Also, people appear to forget the EU was happy to unilaterally activate article 16 of the protocol a few weeks ago when it suited them (obviously so concerned about the border on Ireland/GFA/peace) so let’s not pretend they haven’t tried to use the NI situation for their own purposes

I don’t think the protocol is even operational currently ?! to blame this behaviour solely on it is disingenuous and attempts to justify/condone terrorism. I don’t claim to understand all of the complexities surrounding NI but just from reading some articles there appears to be plenty of other things at play (in addition to the protocol), a funeral attended by 2k during Covid restrictions last year inc SF ministers and where NI Police/PPS took no action at the time or after, a major one. As well as general concerns about police bias. Not to mention unionist areas feeling their get the rough end of the deal/Covid etc. People also appear to forget that NI didn’t have a functioning government for 3+ years so to pretend everything was going along perfectly is crazy.

That’s not to say a sensible solution doesn’t needs to be found regarding the protocol and quickly, unfortunately even if one is found I’ve got a feeling these problems could well remain
Mate.

The NI situation was clear from day one, it’s basic logic: you can’t be in and out the EU at the same time. The “tech solution” was never a real thing, it was a nonsense brought up to get rid of people pointing out the glaringly obvious.

From day one of us talking about leaving the SM the very obvious truth was pointed out that you will need a border either in the sea or in Ireland. There was never another solution and anyone who pretended there was was doing so to protect the Brexit project not out of any serious belief.
 

shmmeee

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Jul 11, 2011
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It isn’t even true. Mays idea of compromise was that the opposition vote for her deal no questions asked.

Also the unionist didn’t support the backstop so even if it had have got through we would still be where we are on the ground in Northern Ireland.
Quality. “It’s your own fault I broke your ribs because you didn’t take the punch in the face I offered you”.
 

PVA

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Apr 22, 2011
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How could it POSSIBLY be the fault of the people who voted for it, the government and Prime minister that agreed the deal, the people who gave the Prime Minister a huge majority based on it, the MPs that voted it through?

Definitely the fault of the people who didn't want any of it.
 

PVA

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Apr 22, 2011
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There was a discussion on here last week about the apparent pro-EU bias of guests on Question Time, well I just saw this...


 

fatso

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Jun 19, 2017
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It's simple as I see it,
Yes there was always going to be a massive problem for NI to deal with, and a border (hard or soft) was inevitable for at least some time.
But (theres always a but) England wasnt about to be dictated to by the troublesome province of NI. As far as the voters of england are concerned, they were always going ahead with brexit, and NI can sort itself out. Paddy's problems are Paddy's problems.
No politician would ever say as much, but you can bet your last penny that's what happened.

Arguing over who said what is irrelevant,
I hate to break it to you, but politicians dont always tell the truth 😱

NI was never going to be allowed to derail the democratic decision of the UK.

How we deal with NI from now on will be very interesting. I think theres a lot of people in England that would be quite happy to give them back to ireland, but if the majority of the province wish to remain in the UK, then Brexit is part of that.
 

fatso

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Jun 19, 2017
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Last night I told my mrs her shepherds pie was the best I've ever had.

Result = a pleasant evening watching what I wanted on tv, with no aggro.
 

skybluetony176

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Aug 2, 2013
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Wake the fuck up NW
That's what politics is!!!
We couldnt handle the truth!
The truth is always out there. You just need to make the decision wether you want it to cloud your judgment or not, at which point you’ll seek the truth. Or not. Baaa
 

fatso

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So I repeat... who cares if we're lied to? That is the acceptable standard for people to aspire to, to get on in this country? Barefaced lies?
Politics is telling people what they want to hear, when they want to hear it.
The people rarely get any truth.
That's the way of the world, we couldnt deal with the truth.
Sad, but that's what its come to.
Infact it's always been like that.
Even Jesus was a politician!
 
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shmmeee

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Wake the fuck up NW
That's what politics is!!!
We couldnt handle the truth!
But everyone was telling you and your heroes were saying it was nonsense.

Knew this would happen once the whole “oh all politicians are corrupt” bollocks started after the expenses scandal. All it does is give free reign to the actual arseholes because now you think that’s just what they do.

No, it’s not what politics is. Demand better.
 
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skybluetony176

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Last night I told my mrs her shepherds pie was the best I've ever had.

Result = a pleasant evening watching what I wanted on tv, with no aggro.
So how come there’s trouble in Northern Ireland? Boris told them that their shepherds pie is the best ever yet they’re up in arms. It’s almost as if your analogy doesn’t work when it comes to politics.
 
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shmmeee

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So how come there’s trouble in Northern Ireland? Boris told them that their shepherds pie is the best ever yet they’re up in arms. It’s almost as if your analogy doesn’t work when it comes to politics.
Wait until he has that shepherds pie every meal for the rest of his life and can’t complain because “husbands lie” 🙄

The cap doffing cuckoldry of the working class in this country will never cease to amaze me.
 
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fatso

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But everyone was telling you and your heroes were saying it was nonsense.

Knew this would happen once the whole “oh all politicians are corrupt” bollocks started after the expenses scandal. All it does is give free reign to the actual arseholes because now you think that’s just what they do.

No, it’s not what politics is. Demand better.
They arnt my heroes Shmmeee I can assure you.
What did you honestly expect BJ to say?
He had a mandate from the people to deliver brexit, and he did just that.

He was never going to say, i can deliver it but it will cause the mother of all problems in NI, and I havnt a fucking clue what to do about it.

Even now, I havnt got a clue what Corbyn's stance on Brexit was, or even if he had one.

The only thing that was certain, was that issues would rumble on for quite a while.
 

shmmeee

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Jul 11, 2011
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They arnt my heroes Shmmeee I can assure you.
What did you honestly expect BJ to say?
He had a mandate from the people to deliver brexit, and he did just that.

He was never going to say, i can deliver it but it will cause the mother of all problems in NI, and I havnt a fucking clue what to do about it.

Even now, I havnt got a clue what Corbyn's stance on Brexit was, or even if he had one.

The only thing that was certain, was that issues would rumble on for quite a while.
Yes, because leadership isn’t the weak ass, slopey shouldered crap Johnson does. He’s a pussy who just wants to be liked so he told everyone they’d get what they wanted then hid when it was time to pay the piper.

Look at how NZ handled lockdown for instance “it’s shit but we’re all in it together and we’ll get out” instead of “lol sure it’ll just be a few weeks” like we got. Political leadership does exist.

Labour’s Brexit solution was a customs Union brexit which would’ve solved this entire problem. The issue wasn’t Brexit it was the weird extreme Brexit the ERG insisted on and Johnson was too weak to refuse.
 

chiefdave

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Politics is telling people what they want to hear, when they want to hear it.
The people rarely get any truth.
That's the way of the world, we couldnt deal with the truth.
Sad, but that's what its come to.
Infact it's always been like that.
Even Jesus was a politician!
The acceptance of lies is how we've ended up in a mess. The lies have got bigger and bigger and nobody has batted an eyelid. We literally had Gove on TV telling everyone we'd had enough of experts!
 
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