The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (28 Viewers)

[Sick Boy]

My missus is threatening to divorce me as I am no longer part of the EU family
Seriously was talking to a Hungarian EU Minister last week who was talking about a EU-type citizenship for those of us resident in EU. Popular in Brussels. Main opposition? The French

I definitely think that those legally resident in the EU should maintain their current rights or be allowed to claim citizenship within 4 years, or whatever the period of time is. I have Irish citizenship as well but will probably get Italian citizenship as soon as I can do.
Let's not lose sight of which country initiated this whole thing.

 

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[Ring Of Steel]

Yep, the direction of travel has definitely done a U turn. Just look how it’s creeping back into the football terraces at all levels of the English game.

Yes you are right. I think I'm right in saying that Villa actually had to release a club statement asking their fans to stop chanting racist songs, about their own players.

Its a difficult one to clarify so I will say again,I am not on here personally branding any of you 'racists. But I am also saying, pretty strongly, that if you are white English then you have no idea what happens with non white English, you really don't, and you just come across as naive and in denial pointing at our 'progress' and comparing us to other countries. The Villa statement is a case in point- the fans saw nothing wrong with chanting about a guy highlighting his blackness, when actually the player said "I don't fucking want thousands of people singing about me being 'different' thank you very much".

In fact here it is Club statement: Response to racist chanting

 

[Ring Of Steel]

Not dismissing your experience and it’s disgraceful when it happens. We have a long long way to go. Sorry if I gave that impression.

Your statement about "we've come a hell of a long way" is wrong, we are regressing badly.

 

[shmmeee]

Your statement about "we've come a hell of a long way" is wrong, we are regressing badly.

Do you think it’s as bad now as the 70s?

 

[Ring Of Steel]

Do you think it’s as bad now as the 70s?

I was age 0 to 5 in the 70s

ie I don't know. But does that matter? Are you looking for us to pat ourselves on the back because its not as bad as it once was

 

[shmmeee]

I was age 0 to 5 in the 70s

ie I don't know. But does that matter? Are you looking for us to pat ourselves on the back because its not as bad as it once was

You were saying me saying we’d come a long way was wrong. We can have both come a long way and regressed recently.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

You were saying me saying we’d come a long way was wrong. We can have both come a long way and regressed recently.

It is wrong, its worse now than any time I remember. Saying that its great news because it may not be as bad as it was in the 70s is just yet another piece of denial & justification, and I'm not sure what it is you are justifying.

 

[shmmeee]

It is wrong, its worse now than any time I remember. Saying that its great news because it may not be as bad as it was in the 70s is just yet another piece of denial & justification, and I'm not sure what it is you are justifying.

Not sure I’ve got the crayons to make this simpler. We are far less racist than we used to be, putting us as one of the least racist countries in the world. This is not negated by the fact we’ve regressed recently. Though the stats I’ve seen suggest there’s been a couple of spikes around the referendum but the overall trend of improvement continues. Maybe not as fast or as far as we’d like but it does.

I’m not sure why you’re desperate to paint everyone as trying to justify racism. I think if something is important it’s worth dealing in facts. Something you’ve been pretty short of in this exchange.

 

[clint van damme]

It is wrong, its worse now than any time I remember. Saying that its great news because it may not be as bad as it was in the 70s is just yet another piece of denial & justification, and I'm not sure what it is you are justifying.

For me the 80s were worse than now (I appreciate everyones personal experiences are different), as I remember seeing the blood on the pavement when Dr. Amal Dharry was murdered close to where I lived.
That was the at the beginning of the 80s.
I can remember the ANL marches and one particular one on Hearsall common which kicked off big time, that was in 79, I was just a kid but saw some crazy stuff going on. There was incredible racial tension. We moved away from that and I never thought we'd go back but we are hurtling back there, some people will say I'm being over dramatic but all the signs are there if we're not on our guard.
Anyone who wants to drag the country back to those days is a wrong un.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

Not sure I’ve got the crayons to make this simpler. We are far less racist than we used to be, putting us as one of the least racist countries in the world. This is not negated by the fact we’ve regressed recently. Though the stats I’ve seen suggest there’s been a couple of spikes around the referendum but the overall trend of improvement continues. Maybe not as fast or as far as we’d like but it does.

I’m not sure why you’re desperate to paint everyone as trying to justify racism. I think if something is important it’s worth dealing in facts. Something you’ve been pretty short of in this exchange.

waffle, semantics, charts, stats, opinions, utter bullshit. The fact you are bringing "statistics" to this is a bit of a joke really. Can you explain to me what counts in those statistics, is there a man going around with a clipboard? Is it only 'reported' incidents? Next time we see, read about, hear about immigrants getting abused we can all hold hands and point at the "statistics" which proves its actually all going to be ok, and if that fails we can say "think yourself lucky you're not in Italy mate". Your stats are meaningless unless you can prove that they capture every incident, which you can't because they don't. Your naivete in even using them as opposed to what you can see with your own eyes is pathetic. You are not living in the real world.

 

[CCFCSteve]

“Yes, undoubtedly racists voted for brexit but to say it was a racist vote is probably as much the cause of problem/the outcome of the vote as anything”

False, racism is the cause of the rise of racism.

Never said it wasn’t or couldn’t be (in actual fact I had already indicated in my post it had increased post referendum result) but it’s not that simple, not by a long stretch.

unless you address the causes you won’t control the symptoms. Unfortunately, as I also indicated people with a limited view on the ‘why’s’ are partly to blame for the causes.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

For me the 80s were worse than now (I appreciate everyones personal experiences are different), as I remember seeing the blood on the pavement when Dr. Amal Dharry was murdered close to where I lived.
That was the at the beginning of the 80s.
I can remember the ANL marches and one particular one on Hearsall common which kicked off big time, that was in 79, I was just a kid but saw some crazy stuff going on. There was incredible racial tension. We moved away from that and I never thought we'd go back but we are hurtling back there, some people will say I'm being over dramatic but all the signs are there if we're not on our guard.
Anyone who wants to drag the country back to those days is a wrong un.

100% correct. We are heading right back there very quickly, the evidence is all around and no amount of stupid, pathetic "statistics", wallcharts and whataboutery is going to stop it,-accepting and acknowledging that there is a hideous growing problem growing in England & then changing attitudes is the only way. If you want to ponce about pulling out figures & spewing out platitudes about other countries' then that is actually enabling the problem.

 

[Grendel]

Do you think it’s as bad now as the 70s?

Clearly not - 80’s were pretty dire as well. I still at work when I talked to people in the retail side heard some pretty unpleasant things but far more isolated

There was one guy who worked for me before I left who was very happy to tell anyone who wanted to listen that Muslims were all scruffy and dirty and should only be cleaners but was very much the exception

 

[ccfc92]

Regardless of what way you voted, this is a very historical day and obviously no one knows what lies ahead, but it's been interesting so far and be interesting to see what happens.

 

[CCFCSteve]

Spot on. But apparently there’s a chart that proves we don’t have a problem, and Steve says that calling Brexit-fuelled racism out is causing the problem, so just goes to show how far peoples heads are buried in the sand.

nonsense. I said the Brexit vote itself couldn’t be classed as a racist vote and listed the various reasons why people voted that way (because I actually read and listen to other people’s views !)

I also said the result had empowered racists and it needs be stamped out

Read the posts !

 

[Ring Of Steel]

Never said it wasn’t or couldn’t be (in actual fact I had already indicated in my post it had increased post referendum result) but it’s not that simple, not by a long stretch.

unless you address the causes you won’t control the symptoms. Unfortunately, as I also indicated people with a limited view on the ‘why’s’ are partly to blame for the causes.

Educating people about the rights & wrongs of brexit votes is all fine & dandy. Acknowledging the problem then making sure that people 100% know that racism is disgusting, unacceptable, hideous and cannot & will not be tolerated whatsoever, no matter whats going on in other countries & no matter what the "statistics" show, and calling it our whenever & wherever you see it- I would suggest- would be a better course of action.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

nonsense. I said the Brexit vote itself couldn’t be classed as a racist vote and listed the various reasons why people voted that way (because I actually read and listen to other people’s views !)

I also said the result had empowered racists and it needs be stamped out

Read the posts !

I wasn't talking to you, and in any case I disagree, I am telling you right here & right now that a majority of brexit voters had "immigration" and "foreigners" as their number one reason for voting brexit. Not all, obviously, but a majority.

 

[NorthernWisdom]

There was one guy who worked for me before I left who was very happy to tell anyone who wanted to listen that Muslims were all scruffy and dirty and should only be cleaners

Amazed he'd keep his job tbh.

 

[Mcbean]

My claret passport does not have the EU stuff on the front -I put it in the washing machine by accident and it all washed off - fortunately the British chip remained untouched !!!!

 

[Grendel]

Amazed he'd keep his job tbh.

I did tell him googling where to live where there is no Muslims (he was new to the area) probably wasn’t the best course of action

He was genuinely confused by what he was doing wrong

 

[CCFCSteve]

I wasn't talking to you, and in any case I disagree, I am telling you right here & right now that a majority of brexit voters had "immigration" and "foreigners" as their number one reason for voting brexit. Not all, obviously, but a majority.

You quoted me ! (Out of wider context). Also you are lumping in people’s concern over immigration in one big racist box...it’s ridiculous and I repeat is partially the cause of the problem. I explained in the list of reasons/potential reasons the nuances surrounding the subject of immigration (which was the main consideration) yet you’ve ignored them.

Not fully read the attached so may/may not support my argument but appears a sensible analysis

https://ukandeu.ac.uk/wp-content/up...-People’s-Stated-Reasons-for-Voting-Leave.pdf

 

[Grendel]

I wasn't talking to you, and in any case I disagree, I am telling you right here & right now that a majority of brexit voters had "immigration" and "foreigners" as their number one reason for voting brexit. Not all, obviously, but a majority.

Rubbish

 

[Ring Of Steel]

You quoted me ! (Out of wider context). Also you are lumping in people’s concern over immigration in one big racist box...it’s ridiculous and I repeat is partially the cause of the problem. I explained in the list of reasons/potential reasons the nuances surrounding the subject yet you’ve ignored them.

Not fully read the attached so may/may not support my argument but appears a sensible analysis

https://ukandeu.ac.uk/wp-content/up...-People’s-Stated-Reasons-for-Voting-Leave.pdf

The first poll was run by Lord Ashcroft, if you don't know who he is then google him. Credibility= zero. But anyway thats only one aspect of the overall report. In summary the report says that the biggest reason people voted leave was immigration. Remainers guessed that leavers voted leave because of immigration, but they overestimated the importance of immigration compared to other things, such as your points.

But basically it says that the number one reason for voting brexit was immigration, just as I said, with some academic analysis beefing it up.

 

[Grendel]

The first poll was run by Lord Ashcroft, if you don't know who he is then google him. Credibility= zero. But anyway thats only one aspect of the overall report. In summary the report says that the biggest reason people voted leave was immigration. Remainers guessed that leavers voted leave because of immigration, but they overestimated the importance of immigration compared to other things, such as your points.

But basically it says that the number one reason for voting brexit was immigration, just as I said, with some academic analysis beefing it up.

immigration concerns don’t have to equate to racist attitudes you lunatic

 

[Ring Of Steel]

Rubbish

Except not really, as every source confirms.

 

[Grendel]

Except not really, as every source confirms.

The association you make is rubbish

 

[Ring Of Steel]

immigration concerns don’t have to equate to racist attitudes you lunatic

and yet as we see every day around us they kind of do, don't they. Or are you another who is in denial that there is a racism problem

 

[Ring Of Steel]

The association you make is rubbish

I guess that all the racist abuse, assaults, chants, violence, islamaphobia that happens every single day is all rubbish too, all made up. People like you are part of the problem, you refuse to accept that there is an issue.

 

[Grendel]

and yet as we see every day around us they kind of do, don't they. Or are you another who is in denial that there is a racism problem

I think with people who think like you if there is a problem you will make it worse

 

[Ring Of Steel]

I think with people who think like you if there is a problem you will make it worse

Thats right, we should all pretend its not happening and hope it goes away.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

I think with people who think like you if there is a problem you will make it worse

Lay it on the line, do you think there is a worsening racism problem?

Forget charts, statistics, politics, polls- all that waffle, just a straight question- in your opinion does England have a racism problem that is getting worse?

 

[CCFCSteve]

The first poll was run by Lord Ashcroft, if you don't know who he is then google him. Credibility= zero. But anyway thats only one aspect of the overall report. In summary the report says that the biggest reason people voted leave was immigration. Remainers guessed that leavers voted leave because of immigration, but they overestimated the importance of immigration compared to other things, such as your points.

But basically it says that the number one reason for voting brexit was immigration, just as I said, with some academic analysis beefing it up.

look at the percentages, hardly the massive majority you were projecting it is also taking about UK gaining control of EU immigration (although you’re view is backed up as the standard ‘Remainers’ views on leave voters - figure 2)

Ill repeat (again) that there are various nuances in relation to immigration as to why people had this as a concern....some might be ‘because I don’t like foreigners’ but I bet a majority are due to the others listed

 

[Grendel]

Lay it on the line, do you think there is a worsening racism problem?

In my experience towards ethnic communities no worse than I’ve previously witnessed

 

[Ring Of Steel]

look at the percentages, hardly the massive majority you were projecting it is also taking about UK gaining control of EU immigration (although you’re view is backed up as the standard ‘Remainers’ views on leave voters - figure 2)

Ill repeat (again) that there are various nuances in relation to immigration as to why people had this as a concern....some might be ‘because I don’t like foreigners’ but I bet a majority are due to the others listed

I said majority, it is a majority, stop the semantics and trying to bend the truth. Your own study that you put up contradicts you.

"various nuances"- what a load of crap

 

[Ring Of Steel]

In my experience towards ethnic communities no worse than I’ve previously witnessed

That is not what I asked. I'll try again: "in your opinion does England have a racism problem that is getting worse?"

And this stuff about 'in your experience'- what experience is that? are you an immigrant? Are you non-white? Classic ignorance- to be expected of course- but still, amusingly lacking in any kind of awareness of the world around you.