The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (32 Viewers)

[Grendel]

That is not what I asked. I'll try again: "in your opinion does England have a racism problem that is getting worse?"

If you are looking at It from a perspective of the goal having zero racism unless a country has no ethnicity then the answer will always be there are racists

in my experience are we more tolerant than any country I’ve visited - yes

is it getting worse - no

 

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[CCFCSteve]

I said majority, it is a majority, stop the semantics and trying to bend the truth. Your own study that you put up contradicts you.

"various nuances"- what a load of crap

So you’re saying none of the concerns in relation control of immigration listed are valid concerns for people around the country ? As I say, unfortunately you’re part of the problem

ps 40% isn’t a majority, it’s the no 1 reason yes but sovereignty (c35%) and cost (20%+) together alone make up significantly more than this

 

[Ring Of Steel]

If you are looking at It from a perspective of the goal having zero racism unless a country has no ethnicity then the answer will always be there are racists

in my experience are we more tolerant than any country I’ve visited - yes

is it getting worse - no

More whataboutery and deflection, shock horror. And if you think it isn't getting worse, despite all the evidence & what happens every single day, then you seriously have zero credibility whatsoever, and you are part of the problem. I actually don't think you even believe it yourself, you just don't want to say anything that agrees with me because I showed you up on all those other threads.

 

[Grendel]

More whataboutery and deflection, shock horror. And if you think it isn't getting worse, despite all the evidence & what happens every single day, then you seriously have zero credibility whatsoever, and you are part of the problem. I actually don't think you even believe it yourself, you just don't want to say anything that agrees with me because I showed you up on all those other threads.

yes showed me up on the fact Sisu didn’t spend more than £20m and oddly the trust website said exactly the same as me.

you clearly have some personal issue on this particular topic which is clouding your judgement

 

[Ring Of Steel]

So you’re saying none of the concerns in relation control of immigration listed are valid concerns for people around the country ? As I say, unfortunately you’re part of the problem

If you want to try bending words then I'm here all day, it won't go well for you.

Racism is on the rise. Brexit has worsened it. It is happening every day in every city.
You are trying to link politics into it and deal in semantics & chicanery to disprove the point, I am not, I accept there is worsening racism and that it has to stop and in order to do that people have to sit up and take notice before we end up back where we started.
And yet in your mind, I am the problem
You don't have a leg to stand on.

 

[CCFCSteve]

So you’re saying none of the concerns in relation control of immigration listed are valid concerns for people around the country ? As I say, unfortunately you’re part of the problem

ps 40% isn’t a majority, it’s the no 1 reason yes but sovereignty (c35%) and cost (20%+) together alone make up significantly more than this

not my study by the way ! Just one I googled and was on first page

 

[Ring Of Steel]

yes showed me up on the fact Sisu didn’t spend more than £20m and oddly the trust website said exactly the same as me.

you clearly have some personal issue on this particular topic which is clouding your judgement

If you mean I have personal views that consequently mean I don't like the fact that we have a racism issue in the country then maybe so. If only you had the same personal issues, maybe we'd be living in a better country, you are clearly ok with how things are going, as you refuse to even acknowledge the issue.

 

[Grendel]

If you want to try bending words then I'm here all day, it won't go well for you.

Racism is on the rise. Brexit has worsened it. It is happening every day in every city.
You are trying to link politics into it and deal in semantics & chicanery to disprove the point, I am not, I accept there is worsening racism and that it has to stop and in order to do that people have to sit up and take notice before we end up back where we started.
And yet in your mind, I am the problem
You don't have a leg to stand on.

You think 40% is a majority FFS

 

[Ring Of Steel]

If your mum had bollocks she'd be your dad, what about this, what if that, take the number you first though of and treble it, look at the median & take a weighted average- yeah yeah whatever.

Every single day racism is getting worse, and you seek to put up charts & figures and downplay it & fudge it and explain it away- this is the problem, you are an enabler by point blank refusing to accept that there is a horrible, disgusting issue to be dealt with, you are more concerned with pissing around with polls and studies.

 

[Grendel]

If your mum had bollocks she'd be your dad, what about this, what if that, take the number you first though of and treble it, look at the median & take a weighted average- yeah yeah whatever.

Every single day racism is getting worse, and you seek to put up charts & figures and downplay it & fudge it and explain it away- this is the problem, you are an enabler by point blank refusing to accept that there is a horrible, disgusting issue to be dealt with, you are more concerned with pissing around with polls and studies.

No it’s sneering bigots like you who fuel the fire

 

[NorthernWisdom]

You think 40% is a majority FFS

Well... 43.6% seems to be considered a majority by many...

 

[Grendel]

Well... 43.6% seems to be considered a majority by many...

No it doesn’t it’s the largest not the majority 52% on the other hand

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Ah stop, that is absolute bollocks, utter crap- you can put up as many charts and white justifications as you like, until you’ve been in the shoes of the people that get abuse, subtle digs, ridicule, excluded every single day because of their colour & place of birth then you can’t say shit like this. This is the very definition of being in denial, the epitome of deflection- we see racism and xenophobia every day and it’s getting worse, but actually “there is no problem cause I have a great chart that shows there isn’t a problem”. It proves absolutely nothing apart from what I have already said- English people don’t come out and say they’re xenophobic, because they don’t actually believe they are xenophobic, they say the right things and they think they mean them, but when push comes to shove, racism and xenophobia are everywhere around us.

I've not seen many, if any, people argue that racism is not a problem here or that Brexit hasn't emboldened the true racists. It's been argued we have a problem many times on this thread alone.

But to say the problem here is worse than elsewhere is nonsense. And to say the problem is almost solely an English one rather than UK is utter bollocks too, just because we voted Leave (as did Wales). England has a far more ethnically diverse population than Scotland. It's also not a one way street. There are blacks/Asians who specifically will target white women because they're 'trash'.

We are, on the whole, far more tolerant than some other EU nations. Look at Italy. They just did that anti-racism campaign and used the face of a monkey in the artwork for it and at no point did anyone think "hang on, that's totally unacceptable". They failed to see what the fuss was about. A friend of mine has a black partner that lives in Italy and people give them disgusted looks at being a mixed race couple. The children stare and point at them. When he came over here he was amazed at how much more tolerant we were.

Then you've got the shit with Eastern Europe, which is much worse, as it is in Russia. Monkey chants and throwing bananas are still commonplace and any fines etc are a joke just to appease Western Europe rather than an actual belief in the message.

Even in places like India racism is rife with the caste system, with darker skin being seen as inferior. IMO that's where the 'brown people' comes from - they wish to disassociate themselves from what they see as inferior 'black'.

We've still got a long way to go to say racism isn't a problem. But in order to provide a comparison it needs people to have experience of a number of different countries. Even different areas of the UK will have different attitudes (and ironically many of those who voted remain are actually those areas with a much higher proportion of white people)

 

[NorthernWisdom]

No it doesn’t it’s the largest not the majority

So, the majority have not endorsed Johnson's Brexit strategy.

 

[CCFCSteve]

If you want to try bending words then I'm here all day, it won't go well for you.

Racism is on the rise. Brexit has worsened it. It is happening every day in every city.
You are trying to link politics into it and deal in semantics & chicanery to disprove the point, I am not, I accept there is worsening racism and that it has to stop and in order to do that people have to sit up and take notice before we end up back where we started.
And yet in your mind, I am the problem
You don't have a leg to stand on.

I was referring back to you saying Brexit was a racist vote

I have agreed racism is on the rise, I have agreed it needs to be stamped out so not quite sure what you’re on about.

The point I am making is that unless you listen to and address people’s genuine concerns, you exacerbate the problem. If some of those issues/concerns relating to controlling immigration (that I listed earlier) had been listened to or addressed pre referendum, remain would’ve won and as we agree that the Brexit vote appears to have empowered/emboldened racists, I rest my case.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

You think 40% is a majority FFS

We have youtube videos of immigrant kids being beaten up & verbally abused every single day, football fans chanting racist songs, everyone can see its getting worse (except you apparently, although you're lying) and your priority is talking figures & charts & random studies and trying to deflect, and because it doesn't happen to you, you don't see any real problem. Great sense of values you have, lovely guy

 

[Ring Of Steel]

So, the majority have not endorsed Johnson's Brexit strategy.

I was going to point this out, plus other examples, but I knew it would be totally lost on them.

 

[Grendel]

So, the majority have not endorsed Johnson's Brexit strategy.

Impossible to say as it’s not a referendum but it’s clear it was far more popular than revoking article 50 or a second referendum

 

[Ring Of Steel]

I was referring back to you saying Brexit was a racist vote

I have agreed racism is on the rise, I have agreed it needs to be stamped out so not quite sure what you’re on about.

The point I am making is that unless you listen to and address people’s genuine concerns, you exacerbate the problem. If some of those issues/concerns relating to controlling immigration (that I listed earlier) had been listened to or addressed pre referendum, remain would’ve won and as we agree that the Brexit vote appears to have empowered/emboldened racists, I rest my case.

Brexit was a xenophobic vote. If you can't see that and want to read academic articles then more power to you, but your head is well and truly buried in the sand.

As for me exacerbating the problem, I don't think its me that is trying to tie it all to politics, you are. I am talking about what happens in real life, in real homes, in real schools, in real workplaces every single day, I am not the one pontificating & waxing lyrical about this study and that study and all that garbage, and then you say that if immigration was resolved pre referendum then Remain would have won, thus even then confirming that immigration (and xenophobia) was the biggest issue.

I have no quarrel with you or anyone else, but try living in the real world, stop trying to get inside peoples heads and extrapolate their thoughts.

 

[Grendel]

I was going to point this out, plus other examples, but I knew it would be totally lost on them.

Lost on “them” - ha ha you are the thick fuck who believed Sisu spent £75m as you read it, ironic really as you accuse others of stupidly reading and following propaganda articles

 

[Ring Of Steel]

Impossible to say as it’s not a referendum but it’s clear it was far more popular than revoking article 50 or a second referendum

If we want to go down this route we'd be here all day deliberating how it can be that with our election system, you don't need a majority, history shows that with our ridiculous system you can do what you want with a minority.

 

[Grendel]

If we want to go down this route we'd be here all day deliberating how it can be that with our election system, you don't need a majority, history shows that with our ridiculous system you can do what you want with a minority.

Oh so now it’s the electoral system at fault is it?

 

[NorthernWisdom]

Impossible to say as it’s not a referendum but it’s clear it was far more popular than revoking article 50 or a second referendum

More popular than over 50%. Right...

 

[Grendel]

More popular than over 50%. Right...

The general election is about various issues. It also is not a Pr system. If PR had existed in 2015 Farage could well have formed the largest party - as he did In the European Parliament

 

[Ring Of Steel]

Lost on “them” - ha ha you are the thick fuck who believed Sisu spent £75m as you read it, ironic really as you accuse others of stupidly reading and following propaganda articles

wow I really got inside your head didn't I? How's Sam Allardyce by the way? Is the meter still running for Robins' Uber?

Anyway once again you digress, your ignorance is disgusting .

 

[CCFCSteve]

Brexit was a xenophobic vote. If you can't see that and want to read academic articles then more power to you, but your head is well and truly buried in the sand.

As for me exacerbating the problem, I don't think its me that is trying to tie it all to politics, you are. I am talking about what happens in real life, in real homes, in real schools, in real workplaces every single day, I am not the one pontificating & waxing lyrical about this study and that study and all that garbage, and then you say that if immigration was resolved pre referendum then Remain would have own, thus even then confirming that immigration (and xenophobia) was the biggest issue.

I have no quarrel with you or anyone else, but try living in the real world, stop trying to get inside peoples heads and extrapolate their thoughts.

But the concerns people have/had regarding EU immigration are the real world and ignoring them is my point

I dug out that analysis in one minute after googling as I wanted to check both your/my comments on the Brexit vote. 60% of people who voted leave did so for issues totally unrelated to immigration. I have also already explained that control of immigration (for various reasons - some valid, some not) is very different from ‘I don’t like foreigners’

You’re right with many of your comments on racism, but I don’t agree with all of them, that doesn’t mean I’m burying my head in the sand !

 

[Grendel]

wow I really got inside your head didn't I? How's Sam Allardyce by the way? Is the meter still running for Robins' Uber?

Anyway once again you digress, your ignorance is disgusting .

Your bigotry is revolting

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

But the concerns people have/had regarding EU immigration are the real world and ignoring them is my point

I dug out that analysis in one minute after googling as I wanted to check both your/my comments on the Brexit vote. 60% of people who voted leave did so for issues totally unrelated to immigration. I have also already explained that control of immigration (for various reasons - some valid, some not) is very different from ‘I don’t like foreigners’

You’re right with many of your comments on racism, but I don’t agree with all of them, that doesn’t mean I’m burying my head in the sand !

There is a possibility that some of those who were saying they wanted to regain control of our laws or even said they had issues with immigration due to the number and the pressure it was putting on services and housing may have done so as a cover for a more racist reason which they knew wouldn't be considered socially acceptable. Since voting leave there has definitely been more willingness from those with those attitudes to openly express them, as people haven't just become racist overnight. In a weird way this can be useful because it does bring the issue back into sharper focus and give a truer indication of levels of racism than before when people hid them. It shows how much more we've got to do and how much further we've got to go to truly get on top of this problem.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

There is a possibility that some of those who were saying they wanted to regain control of our laws or even said they had issues with immigration due to the number and the pressure it was putting on services and housing may have done so as a cover for a more racist reason which they knew wouldn't be considered socially acceptable. Since voting leave there has definitely been more willingness from those with those attitudes to openly express them, as people haven't just become racist overnight. In a weird way this can be useful because it does bring the issue back into sharper focus and give a truer indication of levels of racism than before when people hid them. It shows how much more we've got to do and how much further we've got to go to truly get on top of this problem.

very well put :emoji_ok_hand:

That was kind of my point, English people say all the right things, and lots don't actually think they are racist, but soon as it became acceptable to air their real views they have jumped at the chance, out come all the previously hidden xenopohobic attitudes. And they now fight to protect their "right" to be racist, under the banner of liberalism. You are also dead right about the fact that Brexit didn't somehow convert people to racism, these attitudes and beliefs were there already, they just had to be kept private before, or at least more private. Now we see what we are dealing with, and its sickening & disgusting, and we have a huge problem with it.

I am reassured that people like you can see this for what it is and call it for what it is, as opposed to trying to explain it away, put up a few charts and pretend that its not getting worse.

I am full of admiration for your eloquence and understanding, Mr Dreamer.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

But the concerns people have/had regarding EU immigration are the real world and ignoring them is my point

I dug out that analysis in one minute after googling as I wanted to check both your/my comments on the Brexit vote. 60% of people who voted leave did so for issues totally unrelated to immigration. I have also already explained that control of immigration (for various reasons - some valid, some not) is very different from ‘I don’t like foreigners’

You’re right with many of your comments on racism, but I don’t agree with all of them, that doesn’t mean I’m burying my head in the sand !

In that case, if I have indeed labelled you incorrectly then please accept my apologies. I am passionate about this- I still 'feel' English and I despair at what I see & hear every single day, I want to be proud of the the country when it comes to racial attitudes, and its truly scary how bad it is getting.

edit... you will notice that not once have I asked who voted for or against brexit, that is not my concern, its not my business how anyone voted- my concern is the racist undertones that are on the increase in all walks of life right now in England. Brexit enabled it and was a great opportunity for racist attitudes to be legitimised, but racism itself didn't just sprout up overnight, brexit will happen and people will get on with their lives.. racism though- that has to be stopped.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

Oh so now it’s the electoral system at fault is it?

No, people like you who don’t think there is a racism problem and think that it’s not getting worse are at fault :emoji_thumbsup:

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

very well put :emoji_ok_hand:

That was kind of my point, English people say all the right things, and lots don't actually think they are racist, but soon as it became acceptable to air their real views they have jumped at the chance, out come all the previously hidden xenopohobic attitudes. And they now fight to protect their "right" to be racist, under the banner of liberalism. You are also dead right about the fact that Brexit didn't somehow convert people to racism, these attitudes and beliefs were there already, they just had to be kept private before, or at least more private. Now we see what we are dealing with, and its sickening & disgusting, and we have a huge problem with it.

I am reassured that people like you can see this for what it is and call it for what it is, as opposed to trying to explain it away, put up a few charts and pretend that its not getting worse.

I am full of admiration for your eloquence and understanding, Mr Dreamer.

While that very kind of you I did also have an earlier post that disagreed about Brexit being just a 'racist decision' - racism will have played a part in it but so would many other factors - and that the problem is an English rather than British problem.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

While that very kind of you I did also have an earlier post that disagreed about Brexit being just a 'racist decision' - racism will have played a part in it but so would many other factors - and that the problem is an English rather than British problem.

I know, thats why I didn't lavish admiration on that one, we respectfully have different opinions on those points, but I guess we agree on the 'big picture', thats all, and I like the way you presented your views. No issue with anyone if they can lucidly argue a point, :emoji_thumbsup:

 

[CCFCSteve]

There is a possibility that some of those who were saying they wanted to regain control of our laws or even said they had issues with immigration due to the number and the pressure it was putting on services and housing may have done so as a cover for a more racist reason which they knew wouldn't be considered socially acceptable. Since voting leave there has definitely been more willingness from those with those attitudes to openly express them, as people haven't just become racist overnight. In a weird way this can be useful because it does bring the issue back into sharper focus and give a truer indication of levels of racism than before when people hid them. It shows how much more we've got to do and how much further we've got to go to truly get on top of this problem.

Can’t argue with much of that. We’ll never know peoples underlying thoughts I guess (I suppose I try to err on the optimistic side of things when it comes to my views of people in general.... I appreciate possibly sometimes incorrectly !)

 

[SIR ERNIE]

I guess that all the racist abuse, assaults, chants, violence, islamaphobia that happens every single day is all rubbish too, all made up. People like you are part of the problem, you refuse to accept that there is an issue.

I struggle to imagine a more hideous manifestation of racism than selecting vulnerable children of a particular race to groom, drug and gang rape them.

Given that you’ve spent the last few days telling us all what a nasty racist country England is, why have made no mention of the grooming gangs scandals that have ruined the lives of thousands of white children in our towns and cities?