The EU: In, out, shake it all about....

Discussion in 'Off Topic Chat' started by jimmyhillsfanclub, Jun 8, 2016.

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As of right now, how are thinking of voting? In or out

Poll closed Jun 15, 2016.
  1. Remain

    23 vote(s)
    37.1%
  2. Leave

    35 vote(s)
    56.5%
  3. Undecided

    3 vote(s)
    4.8%
  4. Not registered or not intention to vote

    1 vote(s)
    1.6%
  1. fernandopartridge

    fernandopartridge Well-Known Member

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    Jesus wept
     
  2. fernandopartridge

    fernandopartridge Well-Known Member

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    Drivel
     
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  3. fernandopartridge

    fernandopartridge Well-Known Member

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    There is no 'weakening of hand', the respective reality of the positions of the UK and the EU are the same. This is not bargaining to buy some fake clobber in Turkey you cretin.
     
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  4. CCFCSteve

    CCFCSteve Well-Known Member

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    Bit unfair to call him a cretin. Many people believe that Johnson’s apparent seriousness to resolve the matter or else by 31 Oct has focussed EU minds, for example the WA, which was not up for renegotiation, can now be amended (if it delivers the same outcome/protections to the original backstop)

    I find it pretty offensive when people dismiss the removal of No deal as irrelevant by arguing that it isn’t like buying a car, house or ‘fake clobber from turkey’ again, treating people who suggest this as idiots. Most people realise it’s different, however unless you’re involved in the negotiations, how on earth do you know how the EU react to positioning by the UK ? (you don’t !). I know a lot of people (remain and leave) who believe talking No deal off the table would be detrimental to our negotiating position, many of whom I trust the intelligence and judgement of over others that use the alternative argument.

    Ps Let’s reverse the argument. Now the EU can pretty much dictate the terms of the extension due to a remain Parliament. If they say two years and labour refuses a vote of no confidence, what are we supposed to do ? In that time we have to continue to contribute the same amount into the EU pot (£15bn last year apparently as our growth is higher than most EU countries). We could therefore ultimately end up paying more than the agreed divorce bill ?! Also, the longer it drags on, the weaker our economic position due to the continued uncertainty and the more likely the public get weary and may accept staying in (after losing the war of attrition), again strengthening the EUs position.

    So, if you look at it from the other perspective, in any negotiation you need to be willing and prepared to walk away, even if it means a potential negative impact (as the alternative might be even worse than that negative impact). Unfortunately, we haven’t properly prepared (due to people like Hammond and the noise from remainers saying it’s a waste of money....no it’s not, it’s common sense !)....that doesn’t mean we should rule out the option though.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2019
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  5. Astute

    Astute Well-Known Member

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    I agree with you 100%.

    But many won't. All they want is to remain. And if they can't remain they want us to keep close ties. I also fully agree with this. But both sides want what is best for them.

    You have the EU and countries in the EU. They have kept united. But even during them there has been moments when the worry has slipped into the public demain. But they have kept united. This has kept their hand strong.

    Then you come to the UK.

    A deal that would keep harmony and ties was dismissed by the vast majority three times. Those who wanted out saw it as being kept in. Those who wanted to remain saw it as a way of leaving. So no deal.

    Time to stand together? Oh no. Lets have talks. But lets not keep our hand close to our chest. In fact how about giving up our bargaining power. Leaving without a deal isn't allowed. So that means they can offer anything which is well to their advantage as we have to accept it. The priblem is parliament won't let something through that puts us in a massively bad deal. We have tried this already.

    The Irish problem was designed to be a problem. They could have got around a table knowing that if they didn't come to an agreement on trade there would be a problem with a border somewhere in/around Ireland. But we have wasted three years arguing about this border. And what this argument is all about is what happens if we don't come to a trade agreement.

    Everyone should want a trade agreement. It is in the best interests of all. But where it falls down is what happens in the future. Can we make our own trade deals? If it ends up that we can't make our own trade deals and we still have to pay billions into the EU every year what are we leaving for?

    So yes we need our strongest hand when having talks. It doesn't mean we have to go through with it. Just like the EU doesn't have to go through with their threats. Because when it comes ti it they won't want the massive job losses that would come with us leaving without a deal. They are ready with a disaster fund of half a billion to help countries through it all. Half a billion? That would soon be gone. They say about 25,000 jobs would be lost to German car makers alone. And this is the strongest economy in the EU.

    It is time to drop the soundbites. Get around a bloody table and talk. Look at the priblems of not ciming to a trade agreement and talk trade. Come to an agreement on hiw much membership should cost us afterwards. And stop looking and acting like spoilt children and act like adults. Try and get the respect back from the public.
     
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  6. CCFCSteve

    CCFCSteve Well-Known Member

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    People also forget that the sequencing was the EUs call, this made the Irish border issue a far greater one than it would’ve been if trade talks had been run concurrently (as requested by Davis - for all his faults this was correct)

    I’m not blaming the EU for taking this stance (I would’ve pushed for it if I was them) but many of the people complaining about the risks of No Deal etc never appear to have got the fact that the EU have tried to squeeze this position from day one....it’s in their interests to. I’ve said numerous times before, check previous negative EU referenda and tell me if any have ultimately succeeded. That tells its own story.
     
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  7. Astute

    Astute Well-Known Member

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    Exactly what I have said from the start. The EU has made it difficult from the start.

    I don't have a problem with this. It is their prerogative. What I do have a problem with is the way we have come across in the UK.

    But to have talks about how to not have a border in Ireland whilst talks take place instead of having talks when there is no border?

    So what would happen long term if talks break down and there is a backstop? They would still have us by the balls. We would have gone through all this pain and it would continue as we wouldn't be allowed to leave. We would be a whisper in the background and have those in charge ordering us what to do. Not a good position to be in. This is why hardly anyone wanted the so called May deal. Not in and not out. Paying for a party but not being able to take part.

    This is why I have always been against the backstop. It doesn't benefit us in any way.

    What is needed is talks. Trade, the rights of those who have made lives elsewhere, our future relationships and more. A Switzeland deal? They got such a good deal that the EU said they would bever offer it to anyone again. Of course they would say that.

    But what I want the most is the childish squabbling to end. This is all the way from the bottom to the top. Then we can get somewhere. I just wish it was someone better than BJ that tried to make things happen.
     
  8. Sick Boy

    Sick Boy Well-Known Member

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    If a deal happens if will be because the Tories and DUP will have made a U-turn on different regulations for NI and Great Britain. I expect it will be portrayed as a victory but it would have been far simpler if May hadn’t set her red lines.

    The real problem is going to be division in the UK, which I don’t think will end any time soon.

    There will be millions of people stripped of EU citizenship and their right to live, work or retire in another country who are not going to simply say “oh well”.

    People tend to not like it when their rights are taken away.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2019
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  9. Brighton Sky Blue

    Brighton Sky Blue Well-Known Member

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    Ultimately Steve the EU got their act together and outwitted Team Twat in the negotiations. When No Deal looked possible earlier in the year they made preparations accordingly. It isn’t an ace in the hole if they’re OK with it happening and are ready for it.We have seen some absurd ideas to do with threatening the Irish coming from the more hardline on the right when really, all the EU wants is to know what the hell we’re doing.

    The decision to flip off Europe was ours. We are the ones who have ballsed it up and characterised it by straw manning the EU position. Johnson, the biggest liar in Britain in both literal and metaphorical senses, is asking us to trust him. Yes the usual morons here have done so but the EU will not.
     
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  10. SkyblueBazza

    SkyblueBazza Well-Known Member

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    Who deems them to be 'expert'?

    Me? You? People that like them? Friends in their chosen field?

    Remember 'experts' once told people smoking was good for them? 'Experts' now say it isn't! Science behind agenda appears to be moveable.

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  11. SkyblueBazza

    SkyblueBazza Well-Known Member

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    What are you on about?

    It was your idea not Boris's!

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  12. Brighton Sky Blue

    Brighton Sky Blue Well-Known Member

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    Science validates itself through physical evidence and peer review. When new evidence comes along, ideas get refined or rejected. The medical evidence on smoking didn’t start to emerge until the last few decades once cancer was better understood.

    As for climate change the basics are irrefutable

    We burn fossil fuels, which releases CO2

    We chop down or burn large areas of forest, which means less ability to remove CO2

    CO2 in the atmosphere absorbs more heat from the sun so the planet’s temperature rises

    Methane trapped in ice near the Arctic gets released and absorbs heat even better than CO2

    But then again I could give you plenty of schoolchildren who understand this.
     
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  13. Brighton Sky Blue

    Brighton Sky Blue Well-Known Member

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  14. NorthernWisdom

    NorthernWisdom Well-Known Member

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    Personally I go for the bloke down the pub for my predictions, rather than people who have studied it.
     
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  15. skybluetony176

    skybluetony176 Well-Known Member

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    Especially if the same bloke is a card carrying member of the flat earth society.
     
  16. SkyblueBazza

    SkyblueBazza Well-Known Member

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    Yes...science also demonstrates drugs (scientific papers are scrutinised by peers, & establishment scientists) are safe & effective. Then occasionally they are withdrawn because they are not safe.


    Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
     
  17. SkyblueBazza

    SkyblueBazza Well-Known Member

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  18. Astute

    Astute Well-Known Member

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  19. skybluetony176

    skybluetony176 Well-Known Member

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    It would be given that no one except Boris believes it’s even possible to build.
     
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  20. SkyblueBazza

    SkyblueBazza Well-Known Member

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    Just one bloke spouting one side of the story? Or do you listen to other sides too?

    Some of the 'experts' people spout about are deemed to be so by the media outlets that refer to them to add credibility to their news piece.

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  21. NorthernWisdom

    NorthernWisdom Well-Known Member

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    It's my job to do so...
     
  22. skybluetony176

    skybluetony176 Well-Known Member

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    So global warming is a conspiracy theory from a media outlet?
     
  23. Brighton Sky Blue

    Brighton Sky Blue Well-Known Member

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    Must have missed out on the conspiracy in my scientific career Baz. You really have no clue about it do you?
     
  24. Brighton Sky Blue

    Brighton Sky Blue Well-Known Member

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    Is it a good idea or not old man?
     
  25. Astute

    Astute Well-Known Member

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    Old man? Got the wrong person there.

    So a waste of money is a good idea?

    I love the way you try and twist things.
     
  26. Astute

    Astute Well-Known Member

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    And a good article for you to read as you have constantly had a go at older generations for having it easier than yourself. And it is even about Brighton.

    House-buyer time machine
     
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  27. Brighton Sky Blue

    Brighton Sky Blue Well-Known Member

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    I'm not twisting anything I'm asking a question. Is it a good idea or not to spunk £15 billion on a bridge nobody thinks can be built?
     
  28. Astute

    Astute Well-Known Member

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    Would you like to explain what the words 'waste of money' means if it is said by me and then what it means if said by someone that you always agree with?
     
  29. skybluetony176

    skybluetony176 Well-Known Member

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    Oh come on. It’s not like Boris has history of spanking millions on pipe dreams that never come to fruition. Does he?
     
  30. Brighton Sky Blue

    Brighton Sky Blue Well-Known Member

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    Just answer the question dude
     
  31. Brighton Sky Blue

    Brighton Sky Blue Well-Known Member

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    Water cannon bought for £322k, sold for £11k. Bargain!
     
  32. skybluetony176

    skybluetony176 Well-Known Member

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    Not his first bridge either. He only spanked £50M on the bridge that never was as London mayor.
     
  33. SkyblueBazza

    SkyblueBazza Well-Known Member

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    Then I am surprised you put so much faith in some experts, but not others

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  34. SkyblueBazza

    SkyblueBazza Well-Known Member

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    Is it? Where did you hear that Tony?

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  35. SkyblueBazza

    SkyblueBazza Well-Known Member

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    Well what I have referred to has happened a fair number of times. In fact I know that two drugs can be compared with the same inclusion criteria & be found to show different results. No mention of conspiracy there btw...except from yourself. Science is not always exacting!

    Think about experts like...the meteorologists! They are weather experts. They get it right all the time in ypur little world I'm sure. Meanwhile in the real world...

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