Something for the Thorn out brigade to think about (1 Viewer)

[torchomatic]

FFS, Lee carsley. Shows us how desperate things are.

 

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[Colonel Mustard]

FFS, Lee carsley. Shows us how desperate things are.

I don't understand how you can write off Carsley - or anyone else, for that matter - but still defend AT's record?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Carsley's come out and said himself that he's more content with the U18's because he's free to make mistakes there without too much pressure-there's still a desire to win of course, but the focus is more on giving the youngsters a footballing education in a low key environment. Thrust him in charge of the senior side and he'll be managing in the complete opposite situation.

 

[torchomatic]

Its got more to do with how low our expectations are. We know we wouldn't bget anyone else.

I don't understand how you can write off Carsley - or anyone else, for that matter - but still defend AT's record?

 

[Colonel Mustard]

Carsley's come out and said himself that he's more content with the U18's because he's free to make mistakes there without too much pressure-there's still a desire to win of course, but the focus is more on giving the youngsters a footballing education in a low key environment. Thrust him in charge of the senior side and he'll be managing in the complete opposite situation.

I really don't have a longing for Carsley. It could be pretty much anyone, as far as I'm concerned...it's just that he and Rioch seem the most obvious candidates (and I'd actually be quite excited to see what Rioch could do). I can't imagine that anyone in Carsley's position wouldn't prefer to move from the school fields to embarking on a managerial career with a big club.

 

[Colonel Mustard]

Its got more to do with how low our expectations are. We know we wouldn't bget anyone else.

I don't believe that. Every time we have sacked a manager in the last decade we've heard "who'd want to manage us"? But then we also hear from the club that there are dozens of candidates who have applied.

I remember when Reid took on the CCFC job. He was still quite a high-profile guy at that time, and a national newspaper ran a piece on him. In one part of the article the interviewer asked about the second-tier and zero-budget status of CCFC, and Reid simply replied "I'm back in football, aren't I?"

I imagine that to be the attitude of most professionals. Tons who want to be back in the game, to have a salary, to get started. And most probably have the hubris to believe that they could turn around any club with their own personal magic.

 

[torchomatic]

Yes, I guess you're right. Boothroyd has gone down the leagues as did Phil Brow. The ones we've got needs to go first, of course.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I really don't have a longing for Carsley. It could be pretty much anyone, as far as I'm concerned...it's just that he and Rioch seem the most obvious candidates (and I'd actually be quite excited to see what Rioch could do). I can't imagine that anyone in Carsley's position wouldn't prefer to move from the school fields to embarking on a managerial career with a big club.

Because he knows he isn't ready. Fact is, someone coming in will be working with an academy side supported by a few token loan signings-and be asked to perform miracles with it. If we're really going to call anyone in to replace Thorn now, I'd go for Paul Hart-firefighting is essentially all the guy does, and he doesn't do it badly. Experienced, wouldn't mind the scant resources, and a relegation battle expert who can work with bugger all; short term only though.

 

[Gaz]

The same Nilsson and Black who have gone on to conquer the footballing world.
Fact is we have had ten different managers since coming down into this league and now we are bottom of the league.
What we need at our club is stability at last.
If I thought we could get a manager who will be a lot better than what we already have then fine, but If Rioch or Carsley is the type of alternatives then no thanks.

To repeat: we will never know because CCFC never implemented the strategy correctly. The whole point of chop-and-change is to keep hold of the rare good ones; but we fired Black and Nilsson.

You're correct in asserting that changing every manager every year will be ineffective, but not if we keep hold of the good 'uns.



Rioch or Carsley.

 

[Colonel Mustard]

Because he knows he isn't ready. Fact is, someone coming in will be working with an academy side supported by a few token loan signings-and be asked to perform miracles with it.

Any would-be manager with their head screwed on should know that all clubs in League Football will be constrained in the seasons to come. It won't be exclusive to CCFC and thus shouldn't be a drawback.

It also overlooks simple human nature. I think most people want to be in 'the show'. It is a bigger salary, it is being around the sweat and blood of the game again, it is giving oneself a new career. If Carsley were laid off from CCFC, the route to managing would become much longer and harder.

If we're really going to call anyone in to replace Thorn now, I'd go for Paul Hart-firefighting is essentially all the guy does, and he doesn't do it badly. Experienced, wouldn't mind the scant resources, and a relegation battle expert who can work with bugger all; short term only though.

Sure, anyone. It's a fire-fighting job right now.

 

[Colonel Mustard]

The same Nilsson and Black who have gone on to conquer the footballing world.

Black has distinguished himself as a coach. Bruce took him everywhere, and he wasn't off the shelf for long - he's now Blackburn's AM. Nobody could blame him for not wanting a managerial hotseat after what happened at CCFC. As for Nilsson, he has been a very successful manager in Scandinavia.

But even if they both sucked in their post-CCFC careers, it wouldn't matter. What matters is what any individual does at CCFC - if they're successful, you roll with them.

Fact is we have had ten different managers since coming down into this league and now we are bottom of the league.
What we need at our club is stability at last.

Facts, perhaps, but ill-fitting in a very questionable theory.

If I thought we could get a manager who will be a lot better than what we already have then fine, but If Rioch or Carsley is the type of alternatives then no thanks.

Yeah, let's stick with the guy who has comfortably led us to bottom months ago...

 

[Gaz]

It won't be exclusive to Ccfc but it will be worse at Ccfc than at most other clubs.
This season we have had the worst budget in our league and brought in the least amount of players.

As for Carsley I'm sure he wouldn't want to rush into a first team managers job to early because if it goes wrong, he could find that the end of his management career.

Any would-be manager with their head screwed on should know that all clubs in League Football will be constrained in the seasons to come. It won't be exclusive to CCFC and thus shouldn't be a drawback.

It also overlooks simple human nature. I think most people want to be in 'the show'. It is a bigger salary, it is being around the sweat and blood of the game again, it is giving oneself a new career. If Carsley were laid off from CCFC, the route to managing would become much longer and harder.



Sure, anyone. It's a fire-fighting job right now.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Any would-be manager with their head screwed on should know that all clubs in League Football will be constrained in the seasons to come. It won't be exclusive to CCFC and thus shouldn't be a drawback.

It also overlooks simple human nature. I think most people want to be in 'the show'. It is a bigger salary, it is being around the sweat and blood of the game again, it is giving oneself a new career. If Carsley were laid off from CCFC, the route to managing would become much longer and harder.



Sure, anyone. It's a fire-fighting job right now.

Restricting expenditure to a percentage of turnover is simply a way of preserving the status quo.

 

[Colonel Mustard]

Restricting expenditure to a percentage of turnover is simply a way of preserving the status quo.

I can't see how it will be business as usual. This ridiculous game of debt blink ought to stop. It will put the onus back on fans to fill out their ground in order to see better squads.

 

[Gaz]

Ah right the same Black who is that good he is only someones assistant and the same Nillsson who is now out of work and has only been successful in the mighty Scandinavia league.

But yeah let's sack yet another manager and 'let Carsley have a go' doesn't matter if he turns out to be crap we can sack him in 6 months pay then rest of his contract off, we have enough money to throw around, it's not like we need it for players or anything.

Black has distinguished himself as a coach. Bruce took him everywhere, and he wasn't off the shelf for long - he's now Blackburn's AM. Nobody could blame him for not wanting a managerial hotseat after what happened at CCFC. As for Nilsson, he has been a very successful manager in Scandinavia.

But even if they both sucked in their post-CCFC careers, it wouldn't matter. What matters is what any individual does at CCFC - if they're successful, you roll with them.



Facts, perhaps, but ill-fitting in a very questionable theory.



Yeah, let's stick with the guy who has comfortably led us to bottom months ago...

 

[Nonleagueherewecome]

Others will find a way around it (they always do), whilst SISU will use it as an excuse for us having just the youth team + Baker, O'Donovan & Bell.

 

[Colonel Mustard]

As for Carsley I'm sure he wouldn't want to rush into a first team managers job to early because if it goes wrong, he could find that the end of his management career.

If a job comes up at a L2 side, there will be tons of applications. Carsley's would just be one among them. It is difficult to get on the ladder; if you're offered a job like that of CCFC, then you take it if you truly have managerial aspirations.

None of us know for sure what he'd do, but I'll bet a couple of hundred quid that he'd take it if offered.

 

[Colonel Mustard]

Others will find a way around it (they always do)

Suggest how.

 

[stupot07]

Others will find a way around it (they always do), whilst SISU will use it as an excuse for us having just the youth team + Baker, O'Donovan & Bell.

Is the (low/free tax) image rights included in ffp rules?

 

[Colonel Mustard]

Ah right the same Black who is that good he is only someones assistant and the same Nillsson who is now out of work and has only been successful in the mighty Scandinavia league.

So you acknowledge that, actually, they have both done well since leaving CCFC. Thanks.

But yeah let's sack yet another manager and 'let Carsley have a go' doesn't matter if he turns out to be crap we can sack him in 6 months pay then rest of his contract off, we have enough money to throw around, it's not like we need it for players or anything.

I'd rather hire Martin O'Neill for five years at £Xm than spend the same amount on players.

 

[SBS]

Joined tonight as I want to give my thoughts. I'm not going to start saying people are wrong, deluded etc. but I think sacking Andy Thorn is not the right idea. Can't make it to as many games as I used to be able to do as I've moved up north, but I was at Blackpool on tuesday which was probably the worst I have ever felt at a game. I would criticise Thorn for not replacing Herman sooner, who was clearly holding his shoulder for about 5 minutes before their first and also for putting 5 in defence, inviting pressure. However, it only took one glance at the bench to realise what he's working with. Not only were Blackpool able to bring on Phillips etc, but Holloway had about three times the staff that Thorn had. I'd have to agree with earlier comments that its like trying to build a cathedral with a play kit. I was also at Thorns first game in charge, Burnley away last year, three or four days after ABs sacking. The football we played that night was impressive, but the spine of that team has been ripped out and not replaced. To be honest, I'm surprised he's not walked away and spilt the beans on what is going on at the club.

Again, I know everyone is entitled to their opinions, but fans criticising other fans for singing the managers name is strange. I'd much rather have our fans chanting Thorns name as opposed to the sort of atmospheres seen at Ewood Park this season. Where I do think there is a problem is Steve Harrison. This chap has been involved in our club through a period that has been pretty poor to say the least. We've seen that Thorns tactics work from the tail end of last season, but when you see the defending for Ipswich's first goal, it does make you think what this bloke brings to the table.

 

[Gaz]

Fact is one can't hack it as a manager and the other is out of work.
Enough said.


I would rather bring in mon than spend that money on new players but let's just come back down to earth and realise thats not going to happen, so back tothe point that sacking manager after manager not only gets us no where, which has been proved and not only that but costs us money that we just don't have.
'Let Carsley gave a go' sounds as alarming as the infamous Richardson comment of ' were going to have a punt '

So you acknowledge that, actually, they have both done well since leaving CCFC. Thanks.

I'd rather hire Martin O'Neill for five years at £Xm than spend the same amount on players.

 

[Gaz]

Welcome to the SBT forum

Joined tonight as I want to give my thoughts. I'm not going to start saying people are wrong, deluded etc. but I think sacking Andy Thorn is not the right idea. Can't make it to as many games as I used to be able to do as I've moved up north, but I was at Blackpool on tuesday which was probably the worst I have ever felt at a game. I would criticise Thorn for not replacing Herman sooner, who was clearly holding his shoulder for about 5 minutes before their first and also for putting 5 in defence, inviting pressure. However, it only took one glance at the bench to realise what he's working with. Not only were Blackpool able to bring on Phillips etc, but Holloway had about three times the staff that Thorn had. I'd have to agree with earlier comments that its like trying to build a cathedral with a play kit. I was also at Thorns first game in charge, Burnley away last year, three or four days after ABs sacking. The football we played that night was impressive, but the spine of that team has been ripped out and not replaced. To be honest, I'm surprised he's not walked away and spilt the beans on what is going on at the club.

Again, I know everyone is entitled to their opinions, but fans criticising other fans for singing the managers name is strange. I'd much rather have our fans chanting Thorns name as opposed to the sort of atmospheres seen at Ewood Park this season. Where I do think there is a problem is Steve Harrison. This chap has been involved in our club through a period that has been pretty poor to say the least. We've seen that Thorns tactics work from the tail end of last season, but when you see the defending for Ipswich's first goal, it does make you think what this bloke brings to the table.

 

[Nonleagueherewecome]

Welcome, SBS. Cracking first post!

 

[Astute]

So we have just lost to a top 6 side team in Blackpool, and now just lost to the team who beat the clear leaders 5-1 in their last game. We have been unlucky in both games, especially today. I keep hearing get rid of AT and replace him with a manager we can't afford, or replace him for Carsley, Oggy, or someone similar who does not have any experience. The reason for getting rid of AT? He makes mistakes through lack of experience :thinking about:

We are now playing the best all season. We have a few new players. AT now has a bit more experience. We will have AT until the end of the season. I still feel hopeful on staying up.

 

[SBS]

Just a thought on boosting bench numbers. Maybe theres a fake baked businessman with no experience of football currently looking for a part time saturday job. It might be the creative input we're missing.

 

[Paxman II]

Martin O'Neill is IMO the best manager in the UK. He should have got the England job when he replied. He is the new Clough.

So, who are we gonna get in who is that good then, Paxman? :facepalm:

BTW Blackpool go 4th today..perspective, eh?

...you don't get it. Think outside the box. I'm not suggesting we get a martin O'Neil. Just a decent manager with experience as Thorn is clearly not good enough for the job and the last person I would want if we go down.
As for perspective? Yes Blackpool 4th today...and your point? Means nothing in this league...we lost at Home to Ipswich that's a bigger point!

Look I don't want to insult you but you really should read more carefully before leaping on someones back with pointless argument.
If your username is anything to go by it's all academic to you anyway isn't it? You have us as a non league club before we even played a game! :wave:

 

[Astute]

As for perspective? Yes Blackpool 4th today...and your point? Means nothing in this league...we lost at Home to Ipswich that's a bigger point!

And Ipswich beat the league leaders 5-1 in the game before us. And your bigger point?

 

[dadgad]

Dear me, What a fuss.
AT was given the job by Sisu because he cost peanuts, they sacked off the fitness coach, our four best players have gone and not been replaced. Recently we got a fee for our top scorer and got in a couple of unproven loans. And yet people think that we need to change the manager.
Listen, it does not matter what we think. Every single decision is made for short term fiscal reasons. SO, until AT's bosses change their identity nothing will change and certainly not the manager.
This is clear, it has been apparent for years. To argue the case that AT should go for footballing reasons cuts no ice with Sisu, none whatsoever.
Any debate on this issue is diversionary, turns fan against fan and supporters against a manager who hasn't thrown in the towel. Given that there is no alternative and he's doing his best what is the fucking point?

 

[Paxman II]

dadgag; are you saying then that Thorn's management has not cost us points at all?

The overall consensus seems to be that he has to work within these restraints but he has now also failed to deliver when we have for the most part been the better team on the day? (nothing to do with selling top goal scorers etc)
He is failing to get that extra bit from his team for what ever reason. If we can come so close each game to winning and win a few too recently then why can't we win a few more? The manager and coach are ultimately responsible for the performance of the players. I firmly believe a manager of more experience (and perhaps a different personality and presence about him) would do better. Do you think Roy Keane would stand for late goals constantly?
What will it take? Harder training? Put the fear of God into them? get rid of Harrison and others? I don't know but Thorn's style is failing and that is now a sad fact with excuses running thin I'm afraid.
You may even make the analogy that a footballer will score goals - somehow you just know it like Kevin Philips right? OK the same goes for a manager....you just know that some of them will always succeed. Thorn's not one of them unfortunately.

Maybe everyone needs to stop bemoaning the squad and lack of money and concentrate on one question and you will have your answer:

Given we could have Simon Grayson tomorrow taking charge of the team with exactly the same circumstances, would you replace Thorn or keep Thorn?

I know which I'd choose!

For those that think Grayson would not do any better than Thorn is doing......really? Seriously really? You'd bet your house on it?

The club is in a bad enough state as it is without us all feeling sorry for those that are only making it worse week in week out.
We can no longer take the charitable road here guys. SISU must make a change it's not too late - yet.

 

[Nick]

Dear me, What a fuss.
AT was given the job by Sisu because he cost peanuts, they sacked off the fitness coach, our four best players have gone and not been replaced. Recently we got a fee for our top scorer and got in a couple of unproven loans. And yet people think that we need to change the manager.
Listen, it does not matter what we think. Every single decision is made for short term fiscal reasons. SO, until AT's bosses change their identity nothing will change and certainly not the manager.
This is clear, it has been apparent for years. To argue the case that AT should go for footballing reasons cuts no ice with Sisu, none whatsoever.
Any debate on this issue is diversionary, turns fan against fan and supporters against a manager who hasn't thrown in the towel. Given that there is no alternative and he's doing his best what is the fucking point?

His best isnt good enough, I reckon if they advertised his job we could get somebody better until the end of the season! Maybe a survival bonus!

All this "he is trying is best" is silly.

 

[Otis]

It's not a very strong defence is it. We all know he's 'doing his best.'

I'm sure I'd do my best if i was a nuclear physicist. Doesn't mean I wouldn't be crap at it though.

 

[Gaz]

But who is going to come in that is realistic and be better than Thorn.

Sack him just for the sake of trying somthing new just smacks me as panicking and pointless.
It's was obvious we were going to struggle this season and the bookies even had us down for relegation before we kicked the season off against leicester.

 

[Otis]

Well, I understand that.

I had us down to struggle this season for sure. What I didn't have down though was us being rock bottom and 7 points adrift.

As I said on another thread, did Leeds sack Grayson because he was crap or because they needed to try something different because they felt it wasn't working?

It clearly isn't working here for Thorn and it has now gone past the argument of whether he is good, bad or indifferent. We need to change the mentality and belief and spirit. That is only going to come from a new manager bringing in fresh ideas and a new approach.

 

[stupot07]

And the reason Leeds have struggled to hit the play offs is because they lost their best players from last season.

In fact I was listening to Talksport and most of the Leeds fans who rang up were bemused to why he was sacked.