So now we know

NorthernWisdom

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It was all about unencumbered freehold in those days, although nobody tried offering a longer lease.

What nobody thought of doing, was the randomness of trying a shorter lease! Although since 'returning' SISU actively wanted short term deals.
 

shmmeee

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I will have a look.

I didn't say they did owned the freehold, I said the agreements were soon unpicked ;)
But they weren’t. The argument is that ACL are the leaseholder and so that lease can’t be nullified without agreement fr both owners. I agree it sounds a bit of a shit excuse, but I don’t know contract law.

By basically just buying out ACL nothing needs unpicking as the freehold remains encumbered.

Don’t get me wrong, as a CCFC fan they totally should’ve tried everything twice and come back and offered stuff to CCFC as well as Wasps and everything else. But equally I can understand how they got to a point where all trust had broken down and they just wanted shot of it by then.
 

Rusty Trombone

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It was all about unencumbered freehold in those days, although nobody tried offering a longer lease.

What nobody thought of doing, was the randomness of trying a shorter lease! Although since 'returning' SISU actively wanted short term deals.
The deal where SISU were to buy Higgs shares involved the lease being extended, to 125 years as I recall.
 

MalcSB

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True. Although you’ve “airbrushed” the fact they threw away our option on half. And refused any long term lease deal as they wanted the freehold. And I think, but could be wrong cos I can’t find a source to back me up, have said that they aren’t interested in a long term deal with Wasps either. And of course, broke the long term deal they had when they arrived.

But that doesn’t fit the Sisu are to blame for nothing rhetoric ;)

Facts are we are where we are and we need to get back to a long term stable ground situation. Let’s all hope that’s Warwick for real this time and we aren’t all here in ten years debating another stadium mess (or god forbid the 84th legal battle between Sisu and whoever and the 82nd round of “short term rental negotiations while we build a ground”).
Were sisu offered a 250 Year lease?
 

Grendel

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It never got to that point.

They were offered 50% of ACL for £2m and turned it down, they were offered all of ACL and turned it down. They have repeatedly stated publicly and privately they didn't want what Wasps were asking for.
When was the 50% offer? Higgs turned the £2 million down and the council have never offered their share have they?
 

shmmeee

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When was the 50% offer? Higgs turned the £2 million down and the council have never offered their share have they?
Higgs was the 50% offer.

Council's a little murkier TBF, just rereading the council report. They definitely entered discussions, but just say ' It became clear very quickly that the only terms on which SISU would consider even making an offer for ACL were on the basis that the sale of the Arena was on an unencumbered freehold basis '.

However they also say: 'It has also been made clear that the City Council will listen to all sensible and sustainable offers to acquire an ownership stake in the Arena whether in full or in part and also in relation to the AEHC shares should they wish to sell.'

Fisher claimed we'd made 'a very serious offer' (for the Higgs share), and CCFC still had first option when the sale to Wasps went through.

So I guess as always it comes down to your interpretation of various statements.

But you can add (all before or around the Wasps sale):

“We realised that the business was nothing short of appalling. Half of something very small is nothing – two turkeys do not an eagle make. We were not going to strap ourselves to an ailing business.”

(Seppala) “We will not interfere with any deal between Wasps and Arena Coventry Limited regarding the Ricoh.”

(Seppala to the pro Sisu fans group at the time)

Stuart Cosgrove, of GCBTR, said: “We urged Joy to make clear at this late stage whether there was any hope that a Ricoh sale has privately remained at least one option for the club.

“Her answer is clear in saying that a new stadium makes more sense.”

So it's not unreasonable to say at least that Sisu didn't make an approach as clearly as Wasps and made some very confusing statements that on the face of it line up with what the council claims was said privately.
 

shmmeee

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That's all correct. That being said, Fisher was on record that Wasps overpaid. He may yet be proved right of course...
The fundamental difference from what I can tell is that without a sports tenant ACL was worthless. So Sisu were negotiating assuming that without them it was worthless. Wasps threw a spanner in those works, making CCFC not the only game in town raised the value of ACL. I can see how Sisu would be pissed their tactic didn't work, but equally the council have a legal obligation to ensure their investment is protected and as laid out in the report putting it on the open market wasn't a serious possibility as only a football or rugby club could sustain it. Which means CCFC or Wasps. If CCFC weren't willing to pay what Wasps paid (and they clearly weren't as they had first dibs) then they don't get the deal. If they had, then we'd be sat here talking about the state aid case from Wasps against Sisu/CCC.

Still interested by this rumour that Seppala was interested in buying half of ACL (well I assume half, I heard 'wanted ownership'). Which makes the whole Warwick thing feel very much 'fine I'll build my own stadium with blackjack and hookers' a la 2014, rather than a serious thought through plan.

I maintain the best thing would've been for Sisu to pay the £2m for Higgs shares, that at best would have scuppered the Wasps deal (assuming Wasps wanted full ownership) then they become the only game in town again.
 

Grendel

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The fundamental difference from what I can tell is that without a sports tenant ACL was worthless. So Sisu were negotiating assuming that without them it was worthless. Wasps threw a spanner in those works, making CCFC not the only game in town raised the value of ACL. I can see how Sisu would be pissed their tactic didn't work, but equally the council have a legal obligation to ensure their investment is protected and as laid out in the report putting it on the open market wasn't a serious possibility as only a football or rugby club could sustain it. Which means CCFC or Wasps. If CCFC weren't willing to pay what Wasps paid (and they clearly weren't as they had first dibs) then they don't get the deal. If they had, then we'd be sat here talking about the state aid case from Wasps against Sisu/CCC.

Still interested by this rumour that Seppala was interested in buying half of ACL (well I assume half, I heard 'wanted ownership'). Which makes the whole Warwick thing feel very much 'fine I'll build my own stadium with blackjack and hookers' a la 2014, rather than a serious thought through plan.

I maintain the best thing would've been for Sisu to pay the £2m for Higgs shares, that at best would have scuppered the Wasps deal (assuming Wasps wanted full ownership) then they become the only game in town again.
I don’t think there’s any argument she offered £2m hence the worthless charity jibe and higgs declined
 

shmmeee

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I don’t think there’s any argument she offered £2m hence the worthless charity jibe and higgs declined
I mean, there is argument:

' In separate litigation between the Higgs Charity and a SISU related company just prior to the Judicial Review hearing it became clear that SISU were not prepared to pay a sum quoted at £2m to acquire the Higgs Charity 50% stake in ACL and even if they were prepared to do so would only be on the basis that the Yorkshire Bank debt was discharged at an unrealistically large discount.'

Have we got stuff from the Higgs case we can view do you know?
 

Grendel

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Talks broke down as CCFC couldn't sign an indemnity that prevented them from suing CCC in the future. The indemnity didn't include Wasps.

I guess much of this was known, but for me it clears up the conflicting statements of Wasps and CCFC about indemnity.
Welk it shows both sides indulge in semantics
 
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Grendel

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Got to say, the more I read this stuff, the more I hate the phrase 'it became clear'.
I have met pre Sisu directors and they are certainly of the same opinion about one person and his destructive attitude towards the football club. In one case the language became very industrial.

I actually did also sit very near Jon Mutton in block 36 for many years and one episode really wasn’t very dignified of a council leader and he really didn’t gauge the mood of the people
 

shmmeee

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I have met pre Sisu directors and they are certainly of the same opinion about one person and his destructive attitude towards the football club. In one case the language became very industrial.

I actually did also sit very near Jon Mutton in block 36 for many years and one episode really wasn’t very dignified of a council leader and he really didn’t gauge the mood of the people
Yeah I'm sure, but equally all those others involved? Lawyers, accountants, other cabinet members? In theory at least there should be a brake on it. But you'd expect them all to be working off what 'became clear' according to the people in the room. But then Lucas and Duggins as well?

I have a motto: meet 1 dickhead you met a dickhead, meet dickheads all day and you're the dickhead. It certainly seems like Sisu meet a lot of dickheads.
 

Moff

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True. Although you’ve “airbrushed” the fact they threw away our option on half. And refused any long term lease deal as they wanted the freehold. And I think, but could be wrong cos I can’t find a source to back me up, have said that they aren’t interested in a long term deal with Wasps either. And of course, broke the long term deal they had when they arrived.

But that doesn’t fit the Sisu are to blame for nothing rhetoric ;)

Facts are we are where we are and we need to get back to a long term stable ground situation. Let’s all hope that’s Warwick for real this time and we aren’t all here in ten years debating another stadium mess (or god forbid the 84th legal battle between Sisu and whoever and the 82nd round of “short term rental negotiations while we build a ground”).
To be honest I just couldn't be bothered to write it all out, you did me a favour ;)

I know they are very culpable, just there was history of ineptitude on a colossal scale prior to their arrival.

I'm hopeful on the Uni idea, I may be wrong be I feel one way or another we will have some clarity by this time next year. I would rather we built our own stadium but if we go back to the Ricoh, so be it, but if it was with Wasps gone all the better!
 
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shmmeee

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To be honest I just couldn't be bothered to write it all out, you did me a favour ;)

I know they are very culpable, just there was history of ineptitude on a colossal scale prior to their arrival.

I'm hopeful on the Uni idea, I may be wrong be I feel one way or another we will have some clarity by this time next year. I would rather we built our own stadium but if we go back to the Ricoh, so be it, but if it was with Wasps gone all the better!
Agree. Feels very much like this though:

1596220836773.png

Though I suppose after 22 years he was right!
 

NorthernWisdom

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The worst thing about digging back to 2014 is how eerily similar the noises from Sisu are to today. Which I guess depending on your flavour means either they've always been telling the truth or never have 🙃
I've always thought it's the same house, different curtains.

Doesn't stop it being more complex than a simple good v bad.

If they have been telling the truth about a ground, they've been uniquely inept about realising it!

This is one roundabout I'd like to stop turning.
 
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shmmeee

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I've always thought it's the same house, different curtains.

Doesn't stop it being more complex than a simple good v bad.

If they have been telling the truth about a ground, they've been uniquely inept about realising it!

This is one roundabout I'd like to stop turning.
Honestly think we won't see anything concrete until the state aid judgement.

Maybe we should be sending letters and protests to the ECJ?
 

Moff

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Agree. Feels very much like this though:

View attachment 16241

Though I suppose after 22 years he was right!
I could be wrong, but things seem to be changing.

I hear rumours like everyone else, and this time it seems different, whether it be plans to build our own stadium or to get back to the Ricoh. I think there is more going on in the background than we know, and I hear and suspect Wasps financial situation is extremely poor at best, and precarious at worst.

Somethings going to give.
 
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shmmeee

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I could be wrong, but things seem to be changing.

I hear rumours like everyone else, and this time it seems different, whether it be plans to build our own stadium or to get back to the Ricoh. I think there is more going on in the background than we know, and I hear and suspect Wasps financial situation is extremely poor at best, and precarious at worst.

Somethings going to give.
Agreed. Like I said (I think) I heard Sisu wanted ownership during talks. Could be they've been spending too much time on here and think Wasps will go pop and they can pick up the pieces.

Just always feels like the resolution is just over the horizon. Wait for the JR. Wait for JR2. Wait for State Aid. Wait for Wasps to die. Wait for the heat death of the universe.

Meanwhile I've literally grown a new fan from scratch in this time and I want her to see her club play in Cov.
 

Moff

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Agreed. Like I said (I think) I heard Sisu wanted ownership during talks. Could be they've been spending too much time on here and think Wasps will go pop and they can pick up the pieces.

Just always feels like the resolution is just over the horizon. Wait for the JR. Wait for JR2. Wait for State Aid. Wait for Wasps to die. Wait for the heat death of the universe.

Meanwhile I've literally grown a new fan from scratch in this time and I want her to see her club play in Cov.
Im probably just a bit more patient than you ;)
 

CCFC54321

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I went to the stadium meetings last time around and was frankly embarrassed as there was no way this was happening. This time I get the feelings it’s happening.

I also feel the 5 year window for the new stadium is time for the appeal to be completed. If it doesnt go in city’s favour then awaiting the eventual collapse of wasps in the next couple of years to pick up the Ricoh. If these don’t happen in the next 2 years then full steam ahead with the new stadium.

CCC’s problem with the Ricoh when wasps eventually go into liquidation and the ground hasn’t got a tenant.