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So now we know (12 Viewers)

  • Thread starter bradwellskyblues
  • Start date Jul 30, 2020
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skyblueinBaku

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 30, 2020
  • #351
Nick said:
This is where somebody needs to do some digging and find out what the people voting were told in the no minutes, NDA meeting to make them all agree.

The relationship had soured before SISU between the football club and the council. SISU then just poured a tanker full of petrol on that.

We have already seen that it was a condition about CCFC not being damaged and how Duggins laughed that off.

It's alright saying Tim Fisher said something nasty and hated the council, look at how actual Council Leaders have behaved. That goes for Mutton, Lucas and Duggins. Does Tim Fisher being a smarmy c**t give a council leader the excuse to be?
Click to expand...
Do local councils have a 'whipping' arrangement like the parties in central government? Perhaps the leaders of the two parties in the council had privately agreed to accept Wasp's proposal and a three line whip was called.
 

Nick

Administrator
  • Jul 30, 2020
  • #352
shmmeee said:
You’re a CCFC fan of course you have ties to it. You’re ranting and swearing and throwing out personal insults and bringing family into it. As I said, too emotional for me. You want to talk let’s talk, but cut that shit out.
Click to expand...

I am not emotional in the slightest.

I am just pointing out that somebody mentioning particular things and organisations is naturally going to be more cutting. That's fact and human nature.

You are the one who is on every thread calling everything a conspiracy.

Have a rest.
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 30, 2020
  • #353
Nick said:
I am not emotional in the slightest.

I am just pointing out that somebody mentioning particular things and organisations is naturally going to be more cutting. That's fact and human nature.

You are the one who is on every thread calling everything a conspiracy.

Have a rest.
Click to expand...

OK I’ll take that as you can’t take the emotion out of it. I’ll not reply on this topic.
 

Nick

Administrator
  • Jul 30, 2020
  • #354
shmmeee said:
OK I’ll take that as you can’t take the emotion out of it. I’ll not reply on this topic.
Click to expand...

As I said, it isn't me being emotional. You are the one trying to say everything and anything is a conspiracy.

It obviously has nothing to do with trying to play down the wrong doings of organisations your dad has been the leader of.

It is you who needs to step back and take the emotional and personal involvement out of it.

It is every thread where something has been said that makes CCC not look very good at all.
 

Frostie

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 30, 2020
  • #355
Deleted member 5849 said:
It really does. I spent all eternity through Northampton being told I was Tim Fisher, signing up to post here under a comedy pseudonym.

I mean, he's not even Northern ffs!
Click to expand...

Not sure Wisdom is a word you'd associate with him either.
 

ccfcway

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 30, 2020
  • #356
Just so you two know, hotels are now reopen if you want to get a room
 
Reactions: RegTheDonk and Sky Blue Pete

Paxman II

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 30, 2020
  • #357
So just to get this straight.
The council want to be indemnified by the football clubs owners from any consequential outcome relating to the EU complaint, still to be decided?
That was the eleventh hour stumbling block? But was that not always there?
Didn't WASP drop their request for the same indemnity, so talks on a Ricoh return could take place?

So what we are talking about here is the council is still concerned that the EU complaint could go against them, and legal proceedings could follow quickly by SISU resulting in possible astronomical fines, and a re-examination of the deal granted WASP?
I would assume that puts WASP tenure in jeopardy. But if SISU indemnified the council (promising no legal actions against them as a result of the EU decision, and paying any fines etc imposed) then WASP would have no reason for their own indemnity.

In summary then the council have effectively made it impossible for the football club to get a return to the Ricoh. To indemnify the council actions for what may well be decided as illegal state aid would be madness, and financial stupidity to agree such an indemnity.

It's can't blame WASP entirely to allow the council to insist on it, as they are looking at the possibility of any EU decision going against the council which will directly effect their tenure, and may be forced to pay back monies or worse have the lease null and void. While happy to have no indemnity themselves, so long as one exist with the council that would fall on SISU to indemnify all outcomes (which would cover all outcomes effecting WASP that the council would be forced to follow through on) makes sense on their part or is it necessarily?
Clearly in my mind WASP were unable to get such an indemnity with the council themselves to protect them...and niether are CCFC/SISU rightly not willing to do so.

But what is stopping WASP from an agreement to bring the football club back in the interim period regardless of the EU outcome? If it goes against the council and WASP tenure is ultimately in question, so what? They could break that lease at any time and kick us out with just several months notice. Becasue SISU will go after the council anyway if the decision is favourable. I really find it objectionable that WASP are not acting in their own interest short term at least, unless the council have some form of arrangement with WASP that effects the lease they have. I can't imagine any legal justification for such an arrangement. This should have been a negotiation to return to the Ricoh between WASP and their ancillary contractors with no bearing on what the council required. Seems like WASP are being played, manipulated.

In these circumstances WASP are the ones being disingenious unless they come out and tell us differently, and are shooting themselves in the foot. I agree SISU turned down the deal for now, but again nothing stopping WASP from having a rethink.
If the EU decision favours the council, then that's the end of that. WASP will look for a long term deal with CCFC for sure. The council will wipe their brow and breath a sigh of relief, and life will go on until we do actually build our own stadium, or find a deal for the Ricoh that is more sustainable long term, perhaps even buying out a failing WASP model.
 
Reactions: rhino1002

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 30, 2020
  • #358
Paxman II said:
So just to get this straight.
The council want to be indemnified by the football clubs owners from any consequential outcome relating to the EU complaint, still to be decided?
That was the eleventh hour stumbling block? But was that not always there?
Didn't WASP drop their request for the same indemnity, so talks on a Ricoh return could take place?

So what we are talking about here is the council is still concerned that the EU complaint could go against them, and legal proceedings could follow quickly by SISU resulting in possible astronomical fines, and a re-examination of the deal granted WASP?
I would assume that puts WASP tenure in jeopardy. But if SISU indemnified the council (promising no legal actions against them as a result of the EU decision, and paying any fines etc imposed) then WASP would have no reason for their own indemnity.

In summary then the council have effectively made it impossible for the football club to get a return to the Ricoh. To indemnify the council actions for what may well be decided as illegal state aid would be madness, and financial stupidity to agree such an indemnity.

It's can't blame WASP entirely to allow the council to insist on it, as they are looking at the possibility of any EU decision going against the council which will directly effect their tenure, and may be forced to pay back monies or worse have the lease null and void. While happy to have no indemnity themselves, so long as one exist with the council that would fall on SISU to indemnify all outcomes (which would cover all outcomes effecting WASP that the council would be forced to follow through on) makes sense on their part or is it necessarily?
Clearly in my mind WASP were unable to get such an indemnity with the council themselves to protect them...and niether are CCFC/SISU rightly not willing to do so.

But what is stopping WASP from an agreement to bring the football club back in the interim period regardless of the EU outcome? If it goes against the council and WASP tenure is ultimately in question, so what? They could break that lease at any time and kick us out with just several months notice. Becasue SISU will go after the council anyway if the decision is favourable. I really find it objectionable that WASP are not acting in their own interest short term at least, unless the council have some form of arrangement with WASP that effects the lease they have. I can't imagine any legal justification for such an arrangement. This should have been a negotiation to return to the Ricoh between WASP and their ancillary contractors with no bearing on what the council required. Seems like WASP are being played, manipulated.

In these circumstances WASP are the ones being disingenious unless they come out and tell us differently, and are shooting themselves in the foot. I agree SISU turned down the deal for now, but again nothing stopping WASP from having a rethink.
If the EU decision favours the council, then that's the end of that. WASP will look for a long term deal with CCFC for sure. The council will wipe their brow and breath a sigh of relief, and life will go on until we do actually build our own stadium, or find a deal for the Ricoh that is more sustainable long term, perhaps even buying out a failing WASP model.
Click to expand...

At the risk of triggering Nick and co.

We don’t know who asked for it. CCC have stated they didn’t. We just know Wasps wanted it in negotiations. TBC on what exactly it is and who requested it.
 

Mucca Mad Boys

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 30, 2020
  • #359
djr8369 said:
That’s a fair point. Could it be that by saying “no action against the council” wasps are protecting themselves while also able to say they are not protected specifically by the indemnity? If so, some of their recent comments seem to have dropped the council in it as they imply it’s because of and for the council. If that was the case you’d expect the relationship between wasps and the council start to sour.
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Regarding the sale of the RICOH. What legal action could SISU even take against Wasps alone?

Obviously all action against the CCC impacts Wasps either directly or indirectly. But, I can’t think of what we take Wasps to court over.
 
Reactions: djr8369 and shmmeee

MusicDating

Euro 2016 Prediction League Champion!!
  • Jul 30, 2020
  • #360


Sound logic.

Bless @smileycov for trying to reason!
 
Reactions: GaryMabbuttsLeftKnee, robbiethemole, smileycov and 2 others

Nick

Administrator
  • Jul 30, 2020
  • #361
You can always tell what they are up to when they have no clue what they are on about.

I always like to scroll back through their timeline to see how they celebrating CCFC being crowned champions. I'd guess that the majority of their shite is discussing politics, brexit with no mention of CCFC until it's starting to look bad for the council or wasps.

There's the same pattern for near enough all of them.
 
Reactions: Bugsy and Fergusons_Beard
D

djr8369

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 30, 2020
  • #362
Mucca Mad Boys said:
Regarding the sale of the RICOH. What legal action could SISU even take against Wasps alone?

Obviously all action against the CCC impacts Wasps either directly or indirectly. But, I can’t think of what we take Wasps to court over.
Click to expand...
Yeah good point. I’ve never though wasps did anything wrong legally they just looked after their own interests. As you say though they are harmed against any action against the council so like I said above this way they protect themselves while being able to say they haven’t asked for protection in an indemnity.
 

Colin Steins Smile

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 30, 2020
  • #363
Woodingdean_Sky_Blue said:
What if CCC is the largest investor in Wasps Bonds? Wouldn't that explain an awful lot?

No actual evidence, just a thought...
Click to expand...
My thought exactly- swop the mortgage money for a bond paying 6%. Then you have a few million pound reasons for praying WAsps do well commercially
 
Reactions: Fergusons_Beard and Sky Blue Pete

Nick

Administrator
  • Jul 30, 2020
  • #364
Colin Steins Smile said:
My thought exactly- swop the mortgage money for a bond paying 6%. Then you have a few million pound reasons for praying WAsps do well commercially
Click to expand...

I know the council invest money like pensions into weapons etc but would they be actually allowed to do it for Wasps?
 

Nick

Administrator
  • Jul 30, 2020
  • #365
I find it surprising how just how much people don't seem to know.

I am by no means saying I know everything and anything, I am a sad c**t who has probably discussed it a lot more than most and looked into things.

People are now seeming surprised when things are being said that happened pre-SISU that I assumed were common knowledge.
 
Reactions: Fergusons_Beard and mr_monkey
D

Deleted member 5849

Guest
  • Jul 30, 2020
  • #366
Nick said:
I know the council invest money like pensions into weapons etc but would they be actually allowed to do it for Wasps?
Click to expand...
I have no idea, but it does sound like it would be rather surprising! I could imagine a small, irrelevant ultimately, amount, but not game changing.
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 30, 2020
  • #367
Deleted member 5849 said:
I have no idea, but it does sound like it would be rather surprising! I could imagine a small, irrelevant ultimately, amount, but not game changing.
Click to expand...

Got to be a public record somewhere surely?
 

Nick

Administrator
  • Jul 30, 2020
  • #368
How was it found out they invested in guns?
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 30, 2020
  • #369
Nick said:
How was it found out they invested in guns?
Click to expand...

Council accounts showed payments to WMPF (pension fund for West Midlands councils) pension fund says what they invest in I believe.
 

Woodingdean_Sky_Blue

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 30, 2020
  • #370
Nick said:
I know the council invest money like pensions into weapons etc but would they be actually allowed to do it for Wasps?
Click to expand...
The investment would have been in bonds, not Wasps. Local Authorities invest in bonds all the time and I think I'm right in saying CCC routinely holds bond investments in it's portfolio.
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 30, 2020
  • #371
Woodingdean_Sky_Blue said:
The investment would have been in bonds, not Wasps. Local Authorities invest in bonds all the time and I think I'm right in saying CCC routinely holds bond investments in it's portfolio.
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Where can we get sight of the portfolio?
 

Colin Steins Smile

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 30, 2020
  • #372
Nick said:
I know the council invest money like pensions into weapons etc but would they be actually allowed to do it for Wasps?
Click to expand...
Councils are allowed to invest in bonds and shares
 

Nick

Administrator
  • Jul 30, 2020
  • #373
Would it not be a conflict of interest if they invested in Wasps Bonds though?
 

jordan210

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 30, 2020
  • #374
Nick said:
Would it not be a conflict of interest if they invested in Wasps Bonds though?
Click to expand...

I would guess so. But with CCC it's in for a penny in for a pound.
 
D

djr8369

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 30, 2020
  • #375
Woodingdean_Sky_Blue said:
What if CCC is the largest investor in Wasps Bonds? Wouldn't that explain an awful lot?

No actual evidence, just a thought...
Click to expand...
Feel like somebody would have spotted this by now but if it’s through a couple of layers of funds it wouldn’t be obvious. If that’s the case though there’s every chance it’s accidental and it probably wouldn’t be enough to affect anything as any fund would be split amongst loads of bonds.

I’d imagine any bonds would be government ones rather than risky ones for individual businesses anyway.
 

Woodingdean_Sky_Blue

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 30, 2020
  • #376
shmmeee said:
Where can we get sight of the portfolio?
Click to expand...
I doubt someone like I can get this information, even though a FOI request. Someone who has ties to the council might be able to find out.

An FOI request has been made to CCC on the subject of Wasps Bonds in the past and the answer given by CCC is not the straightforward denial it could have been.
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 30, 2020
  • #377
Woodingdean_Sky_Blue said:
I doubt someone like I can get this information, even though a FOI request. Someone who has ties to the council might be able to find out.

An FOI request has been made to CCC on the subject of Wasps Bonds in the past and the answer given by CCC is not the straightforward denial it could have been.
Click to expand...

Surely investments are public and in the accounts?
 

tisza

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 30, 2020
  • #378
shmmeee said:
Where can we get sight of the portfolio?
Click to expand...
Draft accounts seem to show not holding any bonds but had about 7 million worth last year.(doesn't say what bonds they were)
 
Reactions: shmmeee

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 30, 2020
  • #379
@oldskyblue58 ??
 

tisza

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 30, 2020
  • #380
shmmeee said:
Surely investments are public and in the accounts?
Click to expand...
Not necessarily. Gets back to the old "commercial sensitivity" local authorities like to hide behind if they are uncomfortable.
 
Reactions: Woodingdean_Sky_Blue

tisza

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 30, 2020
  • #381
Nick said:
Would it not be a conflict of interest if they invested in Wasps Bonds though?
Click to expand...
Wasn't part of it was used to pay CCC to enable them to clear outstanding bank loan?? If so would be a bit murky plus obviously a poor investment looking at bond price performance.
 
S

skybluesam66

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 30, 2020
  • #382
I think the pcwh threats at the time were to put anybody off the scent - I questioned whether he was on the payroll, and quickly got the lawyers threat
 
Reactions: Sky Blue Pete

Sky Blue Pete

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 30, 2020
  • #383
skybluesam66 said:
I think the pcwh threats at the time were to put anybody off the scent - I questioned whether he was on the payroll, and quickly got the lawyers threat
Click to expand...
What was it please don’t ask or I’ll sue huh
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 30, 2020
  • #384
Warning Nick ⚠

I have just instructed my solicitors to buy my house.
 
Reactions: Sky Blue Pete

Nick

Administrator
  • Jul 30, 2020
  • #385
tisza said:
Wasn't part of it was used to pay CCC to enable them to clear outstanding bank loan?? If so would be a bit murky plus obviously a poor investment looking at bond price performance.
Click to expand...

Yeah.

The timings would all be interesting too and when money was actually paid.

Was it "you can take on the loan and you have to pay it back now" or was it "don't worry lads, you go sort your bonds and send it over when you can".
 
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