No wonder this club is becoming a joke on and off the pitch when... (1 Viewer)

CUS Wyken

New Member
You have fans who believe the following:

  • Tactics and luck don't make a difference to football results.
  • Kids of 18 are too young to understand the logic of tactics and formation
  • The protests are more likely to cause us to lose rather than Thorns tactics
It beggars belief it really does.
 

Skybluefaz

Well-Known Member
What makes it even worse is that we've got a team full of average/poor players because SISU sold or let go the good players.

I say make even worse, I mean that there is your root cause. Shit team + bad results= disillusioned fans who will grasp at all sorts of straws to blame the current situation on be it the manager, age of the squad or luck.

We aren't good enough because of our unfit owners.

SISU out!!
 

Nick

Administrator
What makes it even worse is that we've got a team full of average/poor players because SISU sold or let go the good players.

I say make even worse, I mean that there is your root cause. Shit team + bad results= disillusioned fans who will grasp at all sorts of straws to blame the current situation on be it the manager, age of the squad or luck.

We aren't good enough because of our unfit owners.

SISU out!!

The thing is as I said in the other thread is that if the squad is so poor why are we not being hammered week in week out? Why do we have spells in games where we are on top but then when another makes a substitution or a tactical change things suddenly change?

Why can we completely boss a first half and come out and come out in the second half and be dire?

Like I said before, if we got beaten 3-0 or 4-0 EVERY week I could understand about the poor players, but we lose by 1 or 2 and usually a sloppy goal every week (usually late on)
 

Big Mo

New Member
Very few people think Thorn is 100% blameless.

Agreed - rather than "blameless" i would say most people think its very difficult to judge the job he's doing - with arguably the worst squad in the league we are where we should be.

That is not to say another manager may not achieve more but we'll never know unless he's sacked.

All any of us can confirm is under thorn with these players we are not good enough to stay in this league but last season with better players we looked decent enough
 

Nick

Administrator
I am also not saying he is 100% to blame either.

I also think our squad is a lot better than where we currently are.
 

Gray

Well-Known Member
its because other teams suss out our tactics and change things around....


we only have one tactic
 

Nick

Administrator
its because other teams suss out our tactics and change things around....


we only have one tactic

Exactly my point!

How often when we play when other teams and they make changes or substitutions it changes the game?

Why don't we ever find weaknesses and exploit them, the same as Poyet did against us (when they got the goal).
 

Senior Vick from Alicante

Well-Known Member
I think the average city fan would put it as 85% SISU,s fault and 15% Thorns inexperience as a manager. In reality he got the job as he was the cheapest option for a company that wants to asset strip the club. If we were in the same position 4 years ago when the job was on offer and their was money for players Thorney would not have got a look in. You can only judge the man when he is able to mould a team and buy the players he wants to play in his system, if the truth be known any new owner will probably want his own man in the role and be reluctant to let Thorn have the time to do it his way. The caviat to this though as I have said all along is who would take the job if it were up for grabs, it will be well known in the footballing world what a shit hand you would have if you took the job. Its all well a good having a go at the manager CUS, but where is the credible alternative? Please before any one out their answers Lee Carsley, this would just put us back to where we were when Thorn took the job. Simple fact is he deserves our support whilst in the job, at least he is trying to play the game the right way or do we want to go back to hoofing it down the park? PUSB
 

torchomatic

Well-Known Member
I always like new threads which once again apportion blame and turn fan against fan. Just what we need in our current predicament.
 

Houchens Head

Fairly well known member from Malvern
You have fans who believe the following:


[*]Tactics and luck don't make a difference to football results.

Mmmmmmm....... Tic Tacs!

tic-tac.jpg
 

Gray

Well-Known Member
I always like new threads which once again apportion blame and turn fan against fan. Just what we need in our current predicament.


unfortunately there are people who just sit on the Internet all day just waiting to antagonize people
 

CUS Wyken

New Member
What makes it even worse is that we've got a team full of average/poor players because SISU sold or let go the good players.

I say make even worse, I mean that there is your root cause. Shit team + bad results= disillusioned fans who will grasp at all sorts of straws to blame the current situation on be it the manager, age of the squad or luck.

We aren't good enough because of our unfit owners.

SISU out!!

I agree but half of the poor players were scouted by Thorn and recommened by him. Baker, Bell, Hussey, McDonald and Wood, to a certain extent this is the team he had recommened.

I hate SISU as much as the next fan but having to see our club bottom hurts me.

I know we've got no other option at present but it doesn't mean we can't voice our opinons on Thorn.
 
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CUS Wyken

New Member
its because other teams suss out our tactics and change things around....


we only have one tactic

Exactly, makes you think does Thorn even watch in advance the games of future opponents? Try and suss flaws and ways of beating them? Where the weak links are etc..?
 

musicmanskyblue

New Member
I think it speaks volumes that Thorn has kept his position in the face of such a poor run of results. It spells that he is an appointment of sisu convenience. However i also believe that Thorn is untried until he has a level playing field and therefore perhaps it is difficult and even unfair to make concise judgement in the given circumstances as to his ability as a manager. Like others i have serious doubts that Thorn is up to the job but there is a far greater problem within this club that needs addressing in order of priority before we can even begin to look at the managerial position.. Any new manager that replaces Thorn will still be faced with impossible circumstance. All the "Thorn out"... "We need a new manager" talk is just serving as a smokescreen to detract from the bigger problem than is eating away at our club like a cancer... SISU OUT...
 

Skybluefaz

Well-Known Member
We don't get hammered cos we have a decent defence, we are completely toothless though. Hence all the 1-0 defeats. I wouldn't say Andy Thorn is not at fault however under the circumstances is not doing the worst job in the world. If we were bringing in the sort of results Forest are with the playing staff that they have then I would be screaming for the managers head.
 

Mary_Mungo_Midge

Well-Known Member
How can any judgement - good or bad - be made against McDonald? He's played 5 games, with little match-fitness, before getting injured. To hold him up as an example of a poorly scouted player so soon is pathetic
 

torchomatic

Well-Known Member
It all comes down to options. Unfortunately, we don't have any. If a left back is injured then a right back gets put there.
 

PVA

Well-Known Member
We don't get hammered cos we have a decent defence, we are completely toothless though. Hence all the 1-0 defeats. I wouldn't say Andy Thorn is not at fault however under the circumstances is not doing the worst job in the world. If we were bringing in the sort of results Forest are with the playing staff that they have then I would be screaming for the managers head.

Agree.

I'm sure there are plenty of managers who could do a better job than thorn, but at the same time, with the squad we've got we do well to be competitive every week and not get turned over three or four nil like forest do.
 

Mary_Mungo_Midge

Well-Known Member
The thing is as I said in the other thread is that if the squad is so poor why are we not being hammered week in week out? Why do we have spells in games where we are on top but then when another makes a substitution or a tactical change things suddenly change?

Why can we completely boss a first half and come out and come out in the second half and be dire?

Like I said before, if we got beaten 3-0 or 4-0 EVERY week I could understand about the poor players, but we lose by 1 or 2 and usually a sloppy goal every week (usually late on)

Can I pick up on a couple of points raised there? Our players are fit. Compared to lower league teams, we are fit, but not perhaps as fit as our peers. Hence losing goals late on. All of our contemporaries have, as well as a full manager event team, a full time, qualified fitness coach and dietician. Every other team in the league. We had one until last summer, when he left to join Liverpool and wasn't replaced. Not replaced by SISU to save money. So who's more culpable when we lose fitness late on in games against teams who are better conditioned? SISU's penny-pinching, or Thorn?

Your second point being that we don't get thumped - we lose by the occasional goal. An observation that's counterintuitive to your other opinions. If we got thumped week in, week out: then yes, Thorn's tactics and formations are allowing other teams to over-run us. But we're not. So the basics can't be so far wrong. It boils down to the occasional bit of lost quality, and mistakes from inexperienced players, or those coming back from injury. Bigger squad, or a sprinkling of more quality, and we'd be performing as we were last year under exactly the same manager
 

Bloodnut1964

New Member
Can I pick up on a couple of points raised there? Our players are fit. Compared to lower league teams, we are fit, but not perhaps as fit as our peers. Hence losing goals late on. All of our contemporaries have, as well as a full manager event team, a full time, qualified fitness coach and dietician. Every other team in the league. We had one until last summer, when he left to join Liverpool and wasn't replaced. Not replaced by SISU to save money. So who's more culpable when we lose fitness late on in games against teams who are better conditioned? SISU's penny-pinching, or Thorn?

Your second point being that we don't get thumped - we lose by the occasional goal. An observation that's counterintuitive to your other opinions. If we got thumped week in, week out: then yes, Thorn's tactics and formations are allowing other teams to over-run us. But we're not. So the basics can't be so far wrong. It boils down to the occasional bit of lost quality, and mistakes from inexperienced players, or those coming back from injury. Bigger squad, or a sprinkling of more quality, and we'd be performing as we were last year under exactly the same manager

Well said chap!!
 

SkyBlueScottie

Well-Known Member
Exactly, makes you think does Thorn even watch in advance the games of future opponents? Try and suss flaws and ways of beating them? Where the weak links are etc..?

He probably doesn't in all honesty, or at least not as much as we would like, he is doing his coaching course, is still our chief scout so must be looking at players and then will have to try and watch the opposition...... I would say another result of Sisu's penny pinching.

Can I pick up on a couple of points raised there? Our players are fit. Compared to lower league teams, we are fit, but not perhaps as fit as our peers. Hence losing goals late on. All of our contemporaries have, as well as a full manager event team, a full time, qualified fitness coach and dietician. Every other team in the league. We had one until last summer, when he left to join Liverpool and wasn't replaced. Not replaced by SISU to save money. So who's more culpable when we lose fitness late on in games against teams who are better conditioned? SISU's penny-pinching, or Thorn?

Your second point being that we don't get thumped - we lose by the occasional goal. An observation that's counterintuitive to your other opinions. If we got thumped week in, week out: then yes, Thorn's tactics and formations are allowing other teams to over-run us. But we're not. So the basics can't be so far wrong. It boils down to the occasional bit of lost quality, and mistakes from inexperienced players, or those coming back from injury. Bigger squad, or a sprinkling of more quality, and we'd be performing as we were last year under exactly the same manager

Well said, so many fans do not realise the effects such thigns have and are constantly looking to blame someone.
 

Seyeclops666

New Member
Can I pick up on a couple of points raised there? Our players are fit. Compared to lower league teams, we are fit, but not perhaps as fit as our peers. Hence losing goals late on. All of our contemporaries have, as well as a full manager event team, a full time, qualified fitness coach and dietician. Every other team in the league. We had one until last summer, when he left to join Liverpool and wasn't replaced. Not replaced by SISU to save money. So who's more culpable when we lose fitness late on in games against teams who are better conditioned? SISU's penny-pinching, or Thorn?

Your second point being that we don't get thumped - we lose by the occasional goal. An observation that's counterintuitive to your other opinions. If we got thumped week in, week out: then yes, Thorn's tactics and formations are allowing other teams to over-run us. But we're not. So the basics can't be so far wrong. It boils down to the occasional bit of lost quality, and mistakes from inexperienced players, or those coming back from injury. Bigger squad, or a sprinkling of more quality, and we'd be performing as we were last year under exactly the same manager


At last some sense on this feckin board!! Well said!!
 
J

Jack Griffin

Guest
People are looking for something to blame, everyone has a different opinion, the following issues come up time after time..

Lack of fitness
Small squad
Poor managerial experience and ability
Poor Tactics
Inexperienced players
Injured players on the pitch


Well, as far as I am concerned the all problems stem from the fact that City have a smaller budget than other teams in the league, the club is being asset stripped and until SISU get to the end of their asset stripping operation we are screwed, nothing else to discuss.

:blue:
 

Otis

Well-Known Member
Thing that's getting up people's noses on here I think is the constant statement that no-one could do any better than Thorn.

Fine to think no-one can do any better, but to categorically come out and state it like it is some kind of fact is just plain daft. Truth is, none of us know for sure whether anyone could do any better or not.

Thorn has made mistakes. These mistakes have probably cost us points. Could a more experienced manager have brought more points to the table through mot making those mistakes? More than likely, yes. As in life nothing is completely black and white and the bottom line is that Thorn is partially to blame and not at all 100% blameless. All managers are to blame at times of course. Just think Thorn's inexperience shows through.

Agree with MMM to a point and we invariably tire, but at times we don't change the tactics to try and compensate when opposing teams start to get the upper hand. Yep, we're limited in our options, but we have had some options to try something different at times and the Burnley game was a good case in point. Burnley started to get on top and only one team looked like to score from that moment on.
Thorn for whatever reason failed to bring any sub on after Burnley equalised. They then went on and bagged the winner with us having 2 unused subs still on the bench.

On the bench that day and unused were Deegan, Baker and Cameron. There were options there.
 
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Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
Thing that's getting up people's noses on here I think is the constant statement that no-one could do any better than Thorn.

Fine to think no-one can do any better, but to categorically come out and state it like it is some kind of fact is just plain daft. Truth is, none of us know for sure whether anyone could do any better or not.

Thorn has made mistakes. These mistakes have probably cost us points. Could a more experienced manager have brought more points to the table through mot making those mistakes? More than likely, yes. As in life nothing is completely black and white and the bottom line is that Thorn is partially to blame and not at all 100% blameless. All managers are to blame at times of course. Just think Thorn's inexperience shows through.

Agree with MMM to a point and we invariably tire, but at times we don't change the tactics to try and compensate when opposing teams start to get the upper hand. Yep, we're limited in our options, but we have had some options to try something different at times and the Burnley game was a good case in point. Burnley started to get on top and only one team looked like to score from that moment on.
Thorn for whatever reason failed to bring any sub on after Burnley equalised. They then went on and bagged the winner with us having 2 unused subs still on the bench.

On the bench that day and unused were Deegan, Baker and Cameron. There were options there.

I don't think many people question that other managers could do (a little) better, but as I've said before, who:

a) Could we afford to bring in?
b) Would want the job in the first place?
c) Would genuinely do a better job with the same resources?

Come up with a manager who ticks all 3 boxes, otherwise the Thorn out argument has a big weakness-we either couldn't afford a better manager, or couldn't attract one.
 

davebart

Active Member
As a matter of interest how would people rate the current best team available with the one we competed the first season in the Championship with - Hedman-Konjic-Shaw-Thompson-Bellamy-Chippo et al? How would Thorn manage with that team?

What exactly are his options this season with the players available? Keep it tight with a team that finds it difficult to score or be adventurous and get stuffed every week?
 

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
As a matter of interest how would people rate the current best team available with the one we competed the first season in the Championship with - Hedman-Konjic-Shaw-Thompson-Bellamy-Chippo et al? How would Thorn manage with that team?

What exactly are his options this season with the players available? Keep it tight with a team that finds it difficult to score or be adventurous and get stuffed every week?

Replace Bellamy with Lee Hughes.
 

Otis

Well-Known Member
I don't think many people question that other managers could do (a little) better, but as I've said before, who:

a) Could we afford to bring in?
b) Would want the job in the first place?
c) Would genuinely do a better job with the same resources?

Come up with a manager who ticks all 3 boxes, otherwise the Thorn out argument has a big weakness-we either couldn't afford a better manager, or couldn't attract one.


Agree with that. I have always said that if Thorn goes it will Carsley stepping up to the plate. Best scenario for me would be for an older, wiser head to come in and work alongside Thorn.
 

Nonleagueherewecome

Well-Known Member
Exactly my point!

How often when we play when other teams and they make changes or substitutions it changes the game?

Why don't we ever find weaknesses and exploit them, the same as Poyet did against us (when they got the goal).

Yeah, we should bring our wingers off the bench, that'll shake things up..oh wait, sorry, WE DON'T HAVE ANY!

OK, then we should make changes earlier..not at HT when Thorn did against Bristol and Southampton: if it aint working after 3 minutes, haul 'em off!

Because our bench is laden with tactical options, right? And with such powerhouses as Jeffers waiting for their chance, Thorn is obviously just being stubborn!

I explained in detail a few weeks past exactly why I thought Thorn was doing a great job. I can't be bothered typing it again but as the same old bloody-minded criticisms get flung at him every day on here, I'll summarise:

Formation:-We don't have any wide-men, so 442 isn't an option.
- 532/352 is tactically outmoded in the modern game and is a foolish option. Much of this is down to the evolution of 433/451. There was quite a detailed discussion about this on R5 this week pertaining to Dalglish using it at Liverpool. Alternatively, there are good books on the subject out there.
-We tried 433/451 against Bristol City and it was our worst 45 minutes of the season.-Thorn switched to the diamond at HT and we delivered possibly the best 45 minutes of our season.

Conclusion-we lack the resources (ie players) to be successful playing other formations.

Tactically Out-thought?: -The reason other sides can make tactical adjustment is that they have players on the bench that on another week could be in their side. We don't-we had to bring on Clarke when he'd trained for a week in the last 6 months. And Freddy, who's a lazy twat who doesn't give a crap about playing-just pickin up his fat pay cheque and seeing out his contract. We usually have 2-4 players on the bench who also aren't fit, but the alternative is a kid who should be playing for the academy, or nobody. Witness the Southampton game, where we couldn't fill the bench! Often these unfit players have to come on, even when, like McPake, they can barely get above walking pace..
- They also have tactical options. We can't "stick on a quick man"-we aint got any. Or bring on a winger-ditto. We bring on an injured RB at LB and an unfit striker, 'cos it's all we've got! It's one thing being able to spot an opposition weakness: it is entirely another having the tools at your disposal to exploit them.

Conclusion-we lack the resources to make tactical adjustments.

Thorn can't motivate:- The players haven't given up. Losing due to late goals and individual errors points to a lack of quality or fitness, not effort. These players are giving all that they've got: they just aint good enough. We haven't been outplayed in many games or taken hammerings. Remember the slaughters against WBA, Blackpool away (when they were shite still!), Watford and Charlton under previous managers? Those sides were on much higher wages and had much more quality than this one, yet they showed precious little passion and coasted through games they were getting hammered in. This lot graft, Cody and Freddy aside. If we were playing under a previous manager, I think we'd have a -30 goal difference, have taken 6 or 7 4-goal drubbings, and be already close to relegated.
-Read the player interviews: they all back the manager. There weren't many players speaking out to back the previous managers. Footballers aren't generally bright enough or skilled enough at acting to co-ordinate such an elaborate facade.
- If you go through the squad, almost every single player we had last season is vastly improved under Thorn. Lukas-transformed into a goalscorer. Keogh-previously suspect defensively, now solid as a rock. Wood-suddenly capable of passing to a man in sky blue. Baker-much more focused and composed on the ball, getting better every week. Clarke-twice the player under AT last season than he'd been under Aidy. Cranie-has cut out his errors and started looking like the ball-playing centre back he is (and not at LB unless no other option, thank God). Sammy-inconsistent, but not bench warming for Doyle anymore. Bell/McSheffrey-injury prone and inconsistent still but still improved, especially last season, and especially Sheff last 5 weeks. Cyrus/Connor/Gael/Hussey/O'Donovan-in the side, rather than in the youth/reserve side, and all greatly improved as players as a result. Even though Roy is pants, he at least offers pace and TRIES!

Conclusion-the players are still fully motivated, despite results that would floor men with an ego the size of Alan Shearer.

The Players Aren't Fit:-We can't afford a fitness coach.
-The players graft so hard at closing down in the first half in a bid to bridge the gap in quality, that they have nothing in the tank for the second half.
-Every week we have 2-4 players on the pitch who aren't fully fit. At any other Championship club they wouldn't be on the pitch; probably not even on the bench.

Conclusion-we lack the resources to have a fit side on the pitch.


I could go on for ever and ever and ever, but I understand that some people will always be unhappy when a side is bottom of the table. What is annoying is that some people think those of us who back the manager are stupid, with no reasoning to back up our arguments. That is not the case. Maybe you think things can't get any worse, but I disagree. Thorn is working in almost impossible circumstances, and the major impediments to success are beyond his control. Those areas that are within his zone of influence are being managed better than I believe any other available manager who would take the job in the circumstances could do.


All the same, I know that tomorrow, someone will post: "What gets me is this Thorn fans never explain why he's doing a good job.." :facepalm:
 
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J

Jack Griffin

Guest
LOL, NLWH isn't that essentially what I said a few posts above, in not so many words... :thinking about:

But well explained, glad someone could be arsed.
 

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