Judicial review thread - day 2 (4 Viewers)

[dongonzalos]

What are you on about? 1) That wasn't even today it was nearly 2 weeks ago (30/05/2013, http://www.skybluestalk.co.uk/threads/45443-Rent-Money-owed-to-ACL-rumour/page29) and that was only because I was responding to someone else who had mentioned it first, and 2) the £400k was mentioned today because it's relevant to the JR, which is what this thread is about. 3) We didn't know that is was a 3 year only deal. 4) the subsequent rent offers have no relation to the decision of the council to bail out ACL.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors

There you go again!!!

 

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[dongonzalos]

OSB met PWKH.
OSB asked questions at one of the meetings. He was open and honest about who he is and what his association with PWKH was.
Can't be bothered to dig it all up. However it all came out on here and there was nothing sinister. Not sure where Rob was when this happened

 

[limoncello]

As was pointed out to me by one of the more logical posters on this site, some of the details of the fabled rent offer (unlawfully) made by ACL during administration seemed to only have been made public (perhaps inadvertently) by our lord and saviour OSB. Now, I agree with Grendel and many others that OSB is an excellent and obviously intelligent chap but none of us are without bias. Even me. For Rob to request disclosure of any interests is not unreasonable.

 

[NorthernWisdom]

As was pointed out to me by one of the more logical posters on this site

Sorry, you lost me from here!

 

[limoncello]

Sorry, you lost me from here!

Few and far between, sadly. Logically consistent posters, that is. Maybe all the other logical people are busy getting on with their careers in politics and banking or something equally reprehensible and can't be arsed to post on football forums.

 

[olderskyblue]

Either way OSB is by a country mile the most skilful poster on this forum and I have huge admiration.

That is not sarcastic by the way.

Why thank you Grendel..... ;-)

 

[dongonzalos]

As was pointed out to me by one of the more logical posters on this site, some of the details of the fabled rent offer (unlawfully) made by ACL during administration seemed to only have been made public (perhaps inadvertently) by our lord and saviour OSB. Now, I agree with Grendel and many others that OSB is an excellent and obviously intelligent chap but none of us are without bias. Even me. For Rob to request disclosure of any interests is not unreasonable.

Apart from the fact it was already done ages ago as Grendel well knows. I take it you or Rob were not in the site a year and a half ago or missed it?

 

[Como]

So what has come out in this review that was not covered by the previous review?

I also remember being promised new information but this all seems to be the same.

 

[No future with SISU]

Where? Was that not a quote from Court then?

No it was a Quote from the SISU QC, not the court judge. It could be untrue.

 

[lordsummerisle]

That, to me, destroys the SISU case. It's a good business decision on CCCs behalf to invest money with a good return for taxpayers.

Wouldn't half of that £19.4million interest be paid by the council half of ACL and half by a local Charity?

Didn't they only have about 15 years to run on a 25 year loan before, which has then been extended to another 40 years?

Would the deal offered by Sisu(whatever it was) have been better for the Council and Higgs than this extended loan?

Another thing of course is does this £19.4million "profit" on the loan to ACL take into account the interest being paid by CCC for the £14million it borrowed to make the loan to ACL?

Has the interest rate being paid by CCC for their loan been made public at all?

Fernando was pretty up with info on this sort of thing when we discussed it a few months ago, but seem to remember that the loan would be taken at pretty much commercial rates for it.

 

[No future with SISU]

It's a fucking awful deal and on a company valued at less than half the loan,

ACL will be worth a lot more when CCFC are playing back there under new owners.

 

[Hobo]

Day 3 could still produce the smoking gun. It could be the Judge, who could be RFC! ;-)

 

[No future with SISU]

How cynical. I'm sure the taxpayers will all be seeing massive improvements in public services. Solihull eat your heart out - Coventry is the place to be.

Have you been to Solihull, blue lights in morrisons toilets to stop drop outs shooting up.

 

[No future with SISU]

The real issue is where does the club go from here. The council will never satisfy new owners goals regarding the Ricoh let alone the present ones.

Lets hope they are dumb enough to build a new ground - otherwise we are dead.

You kept telling us they were clever and the council were dumb. Where is this so called smokeing gun.

 

[lordsummerisle]

You kept telling us they were clever and the council were dumb. Where is this so called smokeing gun.

Are you a poet?

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

As was pointed out to me by one of the more logical posters on this site, some of the details of the fabled rent offer (unlawfully) made by ACL during administration seemed to only have been made public (perhaps inadvertently) by our lord and saviour OSB. Now, I agree with Grendel and many others that OSB is an excellent and obviously intelligent chap but none of us are without bias. Even me. For Rob to request disclosure of any interests is not unreasonable.

You mention logical posters, then go and get all illogical by calling the offer unlawful. Is this an exercise in the perverse?

The offer could not be accomodated within the framework of the administration process, and therefore there was - I understand - and offer for it to be introduced outside of the auspices if the administration process; but to run alongside each other. That does not make it unlawful.

I also note that, despite getting all hissy-fit with your words in condemning this offer, you don't judge those at SISU who wouldn't consider the concept; which could have saved all this...

 

[sky blue john]

Has anything come out yet about a rent offer made via the football league ?
Just trying to clarify if one was ever made or not.

 

[Spionkop]

Sisu ignored it.

 

[Grendel]

Have you been to Solihull, blue lights in morrisons toilets to stop drop outs shooting up.

Yes of course you are right. Touchwood isn't a patch on The Burgess or indeed that delightful bit of town from the arcade up to the banking area. Such a scenic stroll full of delightful Independant stores.

 

[stupot07]

Has anything come out yet about a rent offer made via the football league ?
Just trying to clarify if one was ever made or not.

No, I'm not sure whether it will be mentioned as it came months after the council loan and therefore had no baring on the decision to take the loan.




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[Astute]

Would the deal offered by Sisu(whatever it was) have been better for the Council and Higgs than this extended loan?

You are right. Whatever it was. And did they keep to it?

If you are on about the road map they didn't keep to it. They wouldn't pay Higgs as agreed. They wanted extended payments with no guarantee of funding. And we all know how much they like paying their debts.

I am sure that if they had made a decent offer and been turned down without it collapsing for a reason that was their fault they would have let us know. We also know that they tried to make out that the offer through the FL wasn't made. We also know that each time an offer was made to them that they said they wanted that would have resolved the matter they turned it down and asked for more. The SISU idea of negotiation......

 

[lordsummerisle]

You are right. Whatever it was. And did they keep to it?

If you are on about the road map they didn't keep to it. They wouldn't pay Higgs as agreed. They wanted extended payments with no guarantee of funding. And we all know how much they like paying their debts.

I am sure that if they had made a decent offer and been turned down without it collapsing for a reason that was their fault they would have let us know. We also know that they tried to make out that the offer through the FL wasn't made. We also know that each time an offer was made to them that they said they wanted that would have resolved the matter they turned it down and asked for more. The SISU idea of negotiation......

What about the rest of the points?

Just don't think such a good deal for ACL and CCC as their QC made it out to be yesterday, and without knowing(as far as I'm aware) the interest rate that is paid by CCC for the loan of monies now loaned to ACL unable to know for sure at all.

 

[Astute]

What about the rest of the points?

Just don't think such a good deal for ACL and CCC as their QC made it out to be yesterday, and without knowing(as far as I'm aware) the interest rate that is paid by CCC for the loan of monies now loaned to ACL unable to know for sure at all.

Give me a chance. I am at work and very busy

So you agree so far?

Next point. We all know that the rent was too much. But this was because the mortgage repayments were so high on a new complex without much income to start with. And yes before you bring it up it could have been refinanced at an earlier date and then a lower rent offered. It looks like the YB offer was at a much higher rate than CCC could get for ACL. IIRC CCC have added something like 0.5% APR. This is still a massive saving for ACL. It means that a lower rent can be offered than if the YB offer was taken up. This is good for everyone but SISU who wanted Higgs out of the equation without redress.

 

[fernandopartridge]

I personally think the council should fully disclose the details of both its own prudential borrowing terms and those given to ACL. One of the strange things is that the £19m interest earner they talk of they may have earned some of as a dividend.

 

[Astute]

And before you say that it was bad for CCFC I will disagree. Negotiations and low rent plus F&B could have been agreed. If SISU would have paid the 5.5m as agreed for the road map they would have had a 50% stake in the arena lease which could have been extended. But instead of paying the 5.5m they tried to get it for less. Or take it over 10 years without proof of funds. Since not doing as agreed they lost our club at least 2m income last season and have lost a lot of money in legal fees. Most probably lost a lot of supporters at the same time. And the debt owed by CCFC continues to go up drastically whilst we stay in Northampton. To make this money back Joy will need even more than a 50% stake in the lease.

Not good news for us at all.

 

[Astute]

I personally think the council should fully disclose the details of both its own prudential borrowing terms and those given to ACL. One of the strange things is that the £19m interest earner they talk of they may have earned some of as a dividend.

I agree with this. Hope we get it once the JR is done.

Back to work now. Have fun all.

 

[Sky Blues]

Simon Gilbert @TheSimonGilbert · 17s Council QC says Sisu were dealing with the bank behind the council's back too. Sisu QC says there's no evidence for that.

I wasn't in court yesterday and I haven't seen a transcript, so I'm not certain on the context and I'll have to go on what is written here, but didn't Sisu's barrister in Higgs v Sisu tacitly accept Sisu had approached Yorkshire Bank directly before August 2012?

 

[Jack Griffin]

And before you say that it was bad for CCFC I will disagree. Negotiations and low rent plus F&B could have been agreed. If SISU would have paid the 5.5m as agreed for the road map they would have had a 50% stake in the arena lease which could have been extended. But instead of paying the 5.5m they tried to get it for less. Or take it over 10 years without proof of funds. Since not doing as agreed they lost our club at least 2m income last season and have lost a lot of money in legal fees. Most probably lost a lot of supporters at the same time. And the debt owed by CCFC continues to go up drastically whilst we stay in Northampton. To make this money back Joy will need even more than a 50% stake in the lease.

Not good news for us at all.

Yes, it seems to defy all logic.

 

[shmmeee]

I personally think the council should fully disclose the details of both its own prudential borrowing terms and those given to ACL. One of the strange things is that the £19m interest earner they talk of they may have earned some of as a dividend.

All public finances should be 100% transparent, though I also wish that politics would be allowed to be more than accounting as well. There are other benefits than monetary ones and the council has other roles than just to balance the books. It's not as simple as "best rate wins".

 

[NorthernWisdom]

All public finances should be 100% transparent, though I also wish that politics would be allowed to be more than accounting as well. There are other benefits than monetary ones and the council has other roles than just to balance the books. It's not as simple as "best rate wins".

Indeed.

And isn't it sad that political decisions have to be made on an economic rate of return, with limited input of the social?

Not just CCC that applies to and, arguably, it's imposed from higher up... but it is something it'd be nice to see some politicians try and change. What 'civilises' us is our culture, be it a nice old castle or a festival in a park.

 

[oldskyblue58]

I wasn't in court yesterday and I haven't seen a transcript, so I'm not certain on the context and I'll have to go on what is written here, but didn't Sisu's barrister in Higgs v Sisu tacitly accept Sisu had approached Yorkshire Bank directly before August 2012?

There was mention made of such an approach on pages 27 and 30 of the court transcripts from the Higgs vs SISU case. Not sure any document proving the approach was produced to the court but I don't think at the time the claim of the approach was rebutted in court either

 

[Sky Blues]

There was mention made of such an approach on pages 27 and 30 of the court transcripts from the Higgs vs SISU case. Not sure any document proving the approach was produced to the court but I don't think at the time the claim of the approach was rebutted in court either

I think Sisu's barrister engaged with the argument (at around p106 of the transcript from Day 1 of that case IIRC), but as you say that's not producing a document.

 

[oldskyblue58]

I think Sisu's barrister engaged with the argument (at around p106 of the transcript from Day 1 of that case IIRC), but as you say that's not producing a document.

Yes he does but he doesn't say it didn't happen ....... his argument could be equally applied to engaging with two or more potential lenders or solutions at the same time couldn't it. Such situations happen frequently in business there is no law to say you cant even if the ethics of it are not great...... pot and kettle?

What it really points to is that there was a poor a deteriorating business relationship even in March 2012

 

[Sky Blues]

Yes he does but he doesn't say it didn't happen ....... his argument could be equally applied to engaging with two or more potential lenders or solutions at the same time couldn't it. Such situations happen frequently in business there is no law to say you cant even if the ethics of it are not great...... pot and kettle?

What it really points to is that there was a poor a deteriorating business relationship even in March 2012

I think we are in agreement, neither confirmed nor denied - but I'm a little surprised he wouldn't take the opportunity to deny it if it wasn't so...

Re: March 2012 - It gets lost in the fog of all that has gone since, but I seem to recall that back about then we already knew things weren't rosy. It would be useful if we still had easy access to the financial FAQs you, Godiva and others did as they were a useful memory aid.

 

[oldskyblue58]

the Trust website has a detailed timeline if that's any help