Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Stopping them in the Channel requires France to step up and stop them taking off, but this is familiar ground from what we've discussed before.
Immigration and Asylum (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter mmttww
- Start date
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
Proof please.
Prove that all the pensioners have created the wealth that provides the money in the system. Given the sums that were done on people's life expectancy and how much they would need to set aside to cover their retirement anyone around or above the age of 80 will have already used up their own contributions from their working life and now be a drain on the economy. And those calculations didn't visualise the massive need for health and social care many of those people would need as they'd spend around 10 years in very poor health. And that's of course assuming all pensioners worked throughout their life paying into the system, which won't be the case.
Then prove that all welfare claimants have contributed nothing. (JK Rowling says hello)
They're nothing but lazy assumptions based on class warfare. Rich people were more likely to be old so we shouldn't blame the old. Poor people are more likely to need welfare payouts (because they haven't got a family that can just pay it off for them) so we should blame them.
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Mucca Mad Boys
Well-Known Member
That is what Australia did. Like our current policy, they tried paying Indonesia to stop the boats and they weren’t doing it because it’s not in their interest to. So they started turning boats back and escorted them all the way to Indonesia.
It caused a diplomatic ruckus and no doubt this policy would. Ultimately, the UK has a right to defend its territory.
It is practical, there’s a blueprint in place and we’re not the only country to has experienced an asylum crisis via small boats.
Australia’s policy was successful. Paying the French, ‘1 in, 1 out’, ‘safe and legal routes’ do not stop the issue.
If the French want to play ping pong with migrant boats in the Channel, so be it. France will never stop 30-50k refugees leaving their shores every year if they know Britain will pick the tab.
fatso
Well-Known Member
This has to be the most rediculous post on here! Are you deliberately wumming?
You clearly have absolutely no idea how the economy functions.
Mucca Mad Boys
Well-Known Member
Deliberately wumming.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
What matters to me on this issue is that human trafficking stops and that vulnerable people are able to make asylum claims in the safest possible way. The problem as I've said before is that no country in Europe, including ourselves, seems interested in a group effort to process claims either near the common points of entry or elsewhere. Instead they all want to fob people off somewhere else and hope the problem goes away.
Then eventually it becomes their problem anyway.
fatso
Well-Known Member
But bearing in mind political leaders only stay in office for 2 or 3 years anyway, its not going to be their problem, they are more than happy to kick the can down the road.
Captain Dart
Well-Known Member
Of course you can.This is true even if some people who want to claim asylum are prevented from getting on a plane.
You can't. Not legally anyway.
I haven't said otherwise.
I'm not the one trying to claim it's fine to jump on a 20 quid Ryanair flight so I'm not sure why you're trying to pull me up and not those that believe that.
Mucca Mad Boys
Well-Known Member
The simple fact is that you can hop on a plane and claim asylum. EU nationals cannot claim asylum in the UK and vice versa. Non-EEA nationals (such as Albania, Serbia, Bosnia etc) can claim asylum in the UK and EU.
However, if you’re a career criminal, you obviously don’t want to present legal documents of who you are. There’s plenty of videos of channel migrants destroying their documents on the channel, why is that? For whatever reason, those people do not want UK authorities knowing who are and where they’ve come from exactly.
Sorry but you're wrong, it's not possible (legally).
And so by your own reasoning every single person on every single boat is a 'career criminal'.
Mucca Mad Boys
Well-Known Member
It’s illegal… what mechanisms physically stop some claiming asylum at an airport?
After all, it’s illegal to hop on a small boat in Calid and sail across to Dover to claim asylum. Alas, it happens.
There’s undeniably disproportionate criminality of channel migrants. Anyone who actively destroys their documents shouldn’t be granted asylum under any circumstances.
Captain Dart
Well-Known Member
The fact you need a visa to get on a plane.
But if it's so easy to get on a plane for 20 quid rather than pay thousands and risk your life then the vast majority would be doing that - so that must mean everyone on the boats are career criminals. You're contradicting yourself somewhat.
Now you're introducing caveats because what you said initially was preposterous.
It's not preposterous.
I'm beginning to see why so many people are so miffed about the small boats now when they think you can just pop on a plane for a few quid.
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
So not willing to provide the proof that many pensioners, especially those over a certain age, aren't a net drain on the economy or that everyone on welfare is I see.
Oh, and you've been told at least two other times on here its r I diculous. With an I. Silly little errors like that can make someone look like they don't know what they're talking about..
Mucca Mad Boys
Well-Known Member
Yes and nothing stops you claiming asylum once you get to an airport, irrespective of visa status. Plenty of asylum claims are made by people who have short stay/student visas.
If you have links to various crime organisations or committed any crimes from the long journey from Greece/Italy/France/Spain… you’re not going to want present ID at a port of entry. Given the specific example of Albania:
1. Safe country
2. At one point made up 25% of small boat crossings
3. 20% of all Albanian nationals based in the UK are in jail
It’s v obvious there’s criminality linked here. If you don’t believe, I’m not sure what evidence you need
FYI - see below, pretty dated, but before the small boats crisis:
Majority of illegal migrants enter UK via Heathrow on a visa, not on a lorry
If Theresa May wants to tackle illegal immigration, better to target overstayers and focus on root cause of Mediterranean migrant crisis
fatso
Well-Known Member
Tell me you realise that pensioners have contributed tax and NI for 50.years or more.
And you do realise that the businesses they worked for paid tax on the profits they made.
And do you even realise that the pension payments given to pensioners are spent in British shops who pay tax and VAT which means the money paid to pensioners eventually returns (through tax and vat) back to the treasurey.
So with that in mind please please please explain to us, your totally ridiculous (with an i) idea that pensioners are a drain on the economy.
I've never ever heard such a totally bat shit bonkers and 100% wrong theory.
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
Tell me you realise that not all pensioners have worked their entire lives (and a small number will have barely worked at all) and so will not have contributed tax and NI for 50 years or more?
Tell me you realise that the calculations made when they were paying into the system were based on statistics where life expectancy was expected to be younger and a pension claim was expected to last around 10-15 years, when now many of them are claiming it for 20 or more years? This is especially true for women who until a short time ago could retire at 60, live longer on average than men and that generation will statistically have been less likely to have worked for their entire lives.
Tell me you realise that those calculations made no allowance for the fact that these people would not only live longer than expected but would be more likely to spend a number of years of that time with poor health requiring complicated, intensive health and social care?
And tell me you realise the money spent on welfare is spent in British shops who pay tax and VAT which means the money paid to welfare claimants eventually returns (through tax and VAT) back to the treasury (again, check your spelling).
So with that in mind please please please explain to us your totally ridiculous (congratulations on getting it right) idea that all welfare claimants are a drain on the economy, when JK Rowling, who famously was on benefits when writing Harry Potter) pays an estimated £40m per annum in tax. Or do you think this doesn't cover the child benefit she claimed?
fatso
Well-Known Member
Tell me you realise that life expectancy has absolutely zero effect on the economy,
If your paying tax on what you spend, and the businesses you are spending with are paying wages to staff that are taxed, and tax on profits etc etc then age has zero effect.
Get that into your thick head, increased life expectancy has ZERO effect!!!
Do you honestly believe that every penny paid to a pensioner gets stuck under grannies mattress and somehow miraculously disappears out of the system?
Is there some mythical black hole where money goes to and somehow no longer gets spent and therefore no longer gets subject to tax and vat???
Now sit down for this bit, and ill try and educate you,
There are basically 3 (main) ways to grow an economy.
1, create wealth through profits on exports
2, print more money. (Quantative easing which leads to inflation)
3, increase demand (usually by increasing living standards. Best done by point 1 above)
If your of working age, and fit to work and not working, you are non productive, therefore you are not contributing to the first way of creating economic growth.
Without growth you have stagnation which leads to economic drag.
(Most pensioners and all of that age group as a collective HAVE contributed, and usually for half a century or more)
If every able person went onto benefits, who would put the food on the shelves, or run the hospitals or schools or provide the energy etc etc. In short there would be a total collapse. Our economy needs working age people to work.
As ive said before you clearly dont understand how the financial system works.
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
Changed from talking about net gains/drains to about the economy now.
You were talking about how pensioners paid tax and ni over the course of their working lives and this works out as more than what we pay them in pensions and are a net benefit. This is not necessarily the case, and arguably for an increasing number of pensioners the opposite is true as they live longer receiving a pension for longer and take up increasing amounts of health and social care. And do you remember that there was quite a fair bit of tax evasion in yesteryears with people being paid CIH and then signing onto the dole to make it a double whammy. Just because they're now white haired disarming old people doesn't mean they lived this clean, full working life dutifully paying their tax.
Then as I pointed out someone on welfare isn't necessarily a net drain on the economy.
I never mentioned anything about the economy or economic drivers. I was literally just responding to your massive assumptions pensioners are net gains and welfare claimants are net drains. Everything you've just put is absolutely meaningless to the arguments YOU made.
fatso
Well-Known Member
I've no idea why you have such an axe to grind with pensioners, clearly there's an underlying issue there.
Ccfcisparks
Well-Known Member
drain on society
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
About 7% of all asylum claims were made by people arriving in the UK by air without the correct arrival documentation, about 37% of all claims were made made by people arriving with the proper paperwork, the majority by air. Couple that with deliberate visa overstay on tourist or student visas where the real intention was to work in the black market then air is still by far the most popular method of arriving in the UK to become an “illegal” immigrant.
Yeah, I think people just count the boats but I think there was 100k+ claims last year.
ps fair play to Mahmood for trying to address this and burst Reforms bubble. I doubt any genuine asylum seekers seeking safety and sanctuary will give a shit about the changes
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
Really powerful
We have to think as human kind not nation states
We have to think as human kind not nation states
Captain Dart
Well-Known Member
The current pension has always been funded from current taxation, inflation continually moves the goalposts, the person who made that comment about pensions being a net benefit simply doesn't understand how that part of the social contract is funded, it is however getting more and more stressed due to longevity increases.
FYI I paid tax to fund pensions when I worked, I paid some of my income into pension funds too, I still pay tax now I'm retired.
Captain Dart
Well-Known Member
Have you been influenced by the film Logan's Run?
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
No axe to grind at all.
I actually agree that most pensioners will be, by and large people, who have been honest, worked and paid their dues over their life.
Personally I don't have any real problem even if they are a net drain, as they take more out overall than they put in when you take into account the pensions, health and social care as well as other things they can get for free/below cost when their older. It's not their fault that's the case and they've done what was asked of them. Why shouldn't they have dignity and respect in their later years? (I will add I can get a bit annoyed with pensioners who go around complaining they get nothing though, because that's plainly not true).
The axe to grind was you making the simplistic (and wrong) assumption that pensioners pay in more than they take out and welfare claimants always take out more than they put in.
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
Not sure these figures even exist but I would love to know how much we spend each year on pensioners in end of life care who, to be frank, would rather be allowed to die.
My Dads in to year 4 of end of life care. I pay 4 figures a month towards the cost, even through it really should be covered by the NHS, but I'm aware I'm not paying even 50% of the actual cost. There is zero benefit in keeping him alive, he has no clue where he is, no idea who anyone else is, is bed bound, can't see, can't hear and when awake is pretty much in a constant state of distress.
There's 24 people in my Dads care home, so relatively small, but you're still looking at millions a year. Scale that up over the whole country and that's a lot of money.
Every single relative you speak to will tell you the same thing. That their parent / grandparent would not want to live like that yet nobody seems to want to have a discussion about alternatives.
Just to be clear not counting this as a drain on society or suggesting we start culling people but from whatever perspective you look at it not sure the current system works for anyone.
Going through this with my Dad has made me look into alternatives for myself, which would be a trip to Switzerland, but its near impossible to arrange without putting other people in fear of prosecution.
oscillatewildly
Well-Known Member
So sorry to hear the situation re your Dad, cd.
We had a similar thing (albeit far shorter) with our Mum last year. She spent the entirety of the year from Jan to July either in hospital or care home - Totally bed bound and near sightless but with the rest of her faculties pretty much good for an 81 year old although we knew she was never going to be able to return to her own home.
My brother and his missus were able to accommodate her towards the end of her life, with daily care visits doing the necessary.
when she passed it genuinely felt like a merciful release as her quality of life was rapidly diminishing.
Your last paragraph struck a chord - The lack of dignity being afforded both the individual and family owing to the law constantly kicking that can down the road.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
20% of pensioners live below the poverty line