Immigration and Asylum (20 Viewers)

[Brighton Sky Blue]

“Among the refugees are doctors, engineers, scientists and journalists such as myself who led stable and successful lives until we were forced to flee to survive.” To save you trawling through the article.

What do asylum seekers and refugees make of the eruption of far-right violence in the UK? We asked them

Our panel talks about the riots, their fear, the racial harassment they are experiencing and their hope that inclusive values will prevail

www.theguardian.com

That quote as written is factually accurate and reads a bit differently to someone saying they're all doctors and engineers so let them all in.

 

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[Brighton Sky Blue]

Most doctors who leave go to countries that have an element of two tier healthcare - the system here just does not work.

We have private healthcare providers in this country as well do we not?

 

[Grendel]

You didn't talk about Grooming Gangs. You talked about a large chunk of a whole segment of the population. It's a bit of leap to go from less than 300 people being guilty of horrific crimes to implying hundreds of thousands of men of a certain heritage see white women as trash, good only for their sexual gratification.

Well you went on some quantum leap “white people are the same” - I did talk about grooming gangs as I said this is a racially motivated form of abuse. Its tatgeted on the colour of a victims skin.

 

[Grendel]

We have private healthcare providers in this country as well do we not?

Most use NHS surgeons but that’s not the point. The point is these countries do not have an NHS as we do at all

 

[Ccfcisparks]

Well you went on some quantum leap “white people are the same” - I did talk about grooming gangs as I said this is a racially motivated form of abuse. Its tatgeted on the colour of a victims skin.

It’s more the point you started by saying “a large proportion of muslim pakistanis males” and then backed it up showing stats showing “a large proportion of sex offenders are pakistanis” if you can’t see the difference then fair enough

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Most use NHS surgeons but that’s not the point. The point is these countries do not have an NHS as we do at all

See above, I'm not wedded to the current system, what I want to preserve is free at the point of use healthcare. I've also explained my reservations about how a privately run/publicly funded system would work in this country as what's happened with education is a good indicator.

 

[Grendel]

It’s more the point you started by saying “a large proportion of muslim pakistanis males” and then backed it up showing stats showing “a large proportion of sex offenders are pakistanis” if you can’t see the difference then fair enough

The Casey report said I believe that there are 800 to 1,000 cases not even being fully investigated and most will have offenders of Pakistani origin.

Oh he also said a large proportion of white men do this as well.

It’s a race issue

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

I'm happy with any form of universal healthcare that remains free at the point of use, not wedded to the government owning all the buildings and employing all the staff.

The issue I have is we have seen from the education sector that privately run but publicly funded set ups have diverted funds from the frontline service and into the hands of executives and other people whose roles didn't previously exist. The frontline service has then suffered more as a result.

It’s common for the UK to have this mongrel set up of half in and half out nationalisation/privstisation. Generally, you get the worst of both worlds.

Take the trains for example, in practice it is privatised because it’s run by a private company different franchises but the government owns (leases out) the equipment and the lines as a nationalised enterprise would. The government has effectively franchised the railways.

Private companies race to the bottom on price to win the contract, to then pass this onto to consumers with price increases and because the state monopolies is franchised out, there’s no real competition to provide a better service.

Taking that model and applying across different public services will have the same outcomes imo. Either fully nationalise or privatise one way or the other.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

It’s common for the UK to have this mongrel set up of half in and half out nationalisation/privstisation. Generally, you get the worst of both worlds.

Take the trains for example, in practice it is privatised because it’s run by a private company different franchises but the government owns (leases out) the equipment and the lines as a nationalised enterprise would. The government has effectively franchised the railways.

Private companies race to the bottom on price to win the contract, to then pass this onto to consumers with price increases and because the state monopolies is franchised out, there’s no real competition to provide a better service.

Taking that model and applying across different public services will have the same outcomes imo. Either fully nationalise or privatise one way or the other.

Cat's out of the bag there.

 

[Ccfcisparks]

The Casey report said I believe that there are 800 to 1,000 cases not even being fully investigated and most will have offenders of Pakistani origin.

Oh he also said a large proportion of white men do this as well.

It’s a race issue

yes but that still doesn’t diverge from the fact your original statement wasn’t quite right

 

[Grendel]

yes but that still doesn’t diverge from the fact your original statement wasn’t quite right

I didn’t say majority I said a large proportion are racist and view white women as inferior. I stand by that.

 

[Ccfcisparks]

I didn’t say majority I said a large proportion are racist and view white women as inferior. I stand by that.

OK and you were asked for the stats to back that statement up and produced something that didn’t. that’s all i’m pointing out.

 

[Grendel]

See above, I'm not wedded to the current system, what I want to preserve is free at the point of use healthcare. I've also explained my reservations about how a privately run/publicly funded system would work in this country as what's happened with education is a good indicator.

There are all sorts of complexities here though.

A lot of funding I assume goes into training health professionals in this country - so others poaching them can spend more as the cost of training hasn’t been factored in.

It could I suppose be conceivable the uk offers doctors free training and if they leave abroad they then pay it back

 

[Grendel]

OK and you were asked for the stats to back that statement up and produced something that didn’t. that’s all i’m pointing out.

Well some people on here post that anyone who votes reform are racist, I can’t recall you challenging that?

 

[Ccfcisparks]

Well some people on here post that anyone who votes reform are racist, I can’t recall you challenging that?

Can u share the post, despite this being silly whataboutism

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

That quote as written is factually accurate and reads a bit differently to someone saying they're all doctors and engineers so let them all in.

Who’s actually verified that and as a %, is it representative? No. The Guardian are presenting this issue in an underhand way imo.

The quote is implicitly misleading because it’s taking the exception to justify making it the rule [to accept small boats]. There will be a small
% of high skill people on these boats. In reality, most small boat migrants will end up being net-tax drains on the economy and the social impacts (crime) are too numerous to ignore.

Since 2018, at a guesstimate there’s probably been around 100-150k small boat migrants. How many journalists, computer scientists, engineers and doctors have arrived?

The policy turn back the boats, process claims in a 3rd country. If there’s are people who will be high skill individuals, fast track their claims if competency can be proved and give them a route to settlement. Low skill, genuine refugees should be granted asylum on a temporary basis and family reunification should be restricted.

That is a fair outline of a policy. Letting one and all come and then process their claims in hotels in small, local communities where is often problems with anti-social to criminal behaviour is a public policy disaster and needs a course correction.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

ok

Grooming gang convictions '84% Asian', say researchers

A think-tank report finds there is a demographic link to those who sexually exploit children in grooming gangs.

news.sky.com

That’s an interesting distinction between grooming and paedophile groups
It’s all just completely unacceptable and monstrous to treat vulnerable children in this way and is hard to understand as a dad and Christian

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Cat's out of the bag there.

I’m not in favour of privatising everything. There are good arguments for nationalised train services supported by private services.

how does the government identify arranged marriages compared to non arranged

Well, the immigration system is being abused in the name of ‘family reunification and right to family life’.

In practice, a lot of communities will go back to countries like Pakistan, get married then bring their new wife over. In Bradford, 32% of children were have foreign-born mothers. A disproportionate amount of 2nd and 3rd generation migrants marry a spouse from their country of origin.

We can’t stop that, but clearly we should restrict those visas. It’s yet another example of; how migration is snowballing and how there are some cultures are less willing to integrate than others.

Take a read:

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200708/cmselect/cmcomloc/memo/cohesion/uc0502.htm

 

[Grendel]

Can u share the post, despite this being silly whataboutism

Its not at all whataboutism as I stand by what I say

 

[Ccfcisparks]

Its not at all whataboutism as I stand by what I say

Can you share the posts please.

 

[Ccfcisparks]

I’m not in favour of privatising everything. There are good arguments for nationalised train services supported by private services.


Well, the immigration system is being abused in the name of ‘family reunification and right to family life’.

In practice, a lot of communities will go back to countries like Pakistan, get married then bring their new wife over. In Bradford, 32% of children were have foreign-born mothers. A disproportionate amount of 2nd and 3rd generation migrants marry a spouse from their country of origin.

We can’t stop that, but clearly we should restrict those visas. It’s yet another example of; how migration is snowballing and how there are some cultures are less willing to integrate than others.

Take a read:

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200708/cmselect/cmcomloc/memo/cohesion/uc0502.htm

But the argument was banning arranged marriages. How do you prove something is arranged.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Who’s actually verified that and as a %, is it representative? No. The Guardian are presenting this issue in an underhand way imo.

The quote is implicitly misleading because it’s taking the exception to justify making it the rule [to accept small boats]. There will be a small
% of high skill people on these boats. In reality, most small boat migrants will end up being net-tax drains on the economy and the social impacts (crime) are too numerous to ignore.

Since 2018, at a guesstimate there’s probably been around 100-150k small boat migrants. How many journalists, computer scientists, engineers and doctors have arrived?

The policy turn back the boats, process claims in a 3rd country. If there’s are people who will be high skill individuals, fast track their claims if competency can be proved and give them a route to settlement. Low skill, genuine refugees should be granted asylum on a temporary basis and family reunification should be restricted.

That is a fair outline of a policy. Letting one and all come and then process their claims in hotels in small, local communities where is often problems with anti-social to criminal behaviour is a public policy disaster and needs a course correction.

The quote was 'among the refugees are...' which is true. The percentage will not be super high I grant, but it's not wrong to point it out when some people are busy tarring every asylum seeker with the same brush.

Your other points conflict with the refugee convention which we've discussed before so won't go over old ground on that one.

 

[mmttww]

Well you went on some quantum leap “white people are the same” - I did talk about grooming gangs as I said this is a racially motivated form of abuse. Its tatgeted on the colour of a victims skin.

Here's what the article you shared actually says:

The report says CEOP, an official government body, identifies two types of group-based child sexual exploitation offenders.

Type 1 offenders were those that targeted their victims based on their vulnerability (roughly equivalent of grooming gangs), whereas Type 2 offenders target children as a result of a specific sexual interest in children (roughly equivalent of paedophile rings).

CEOP found that 75% of Type 1 offenders were of Asian ethnicity, whereas 100% of Type 2 offenders were white

so I'm trying to get my head around why you shared this to support the idea that a 'large proportion' of an ethnic group views white women a certain way.

Lots of women I know have experiences of being seen as being only of value for meeting white men's needs with outcomes up to and incl. sexual assault.

Not a hot take to extrapolate that and say there's a chunk of the white British male population with those attitudes. Not a large proportion, but a lot.

if there's something that shows a large proportion of Muslim men from certain backgrounds view white women the way you say they do, share it.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I’m not in favour of privatising everything. There are good arguments for nationalised train services supported by private services.

Sure, I just get the impression you'd prefer us to be closer to the American system than this one based on what you wrote.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

But the argument was banning arranged marriages. How do you prove something is arranged.

Co’mon now, use your noggin.

If you deny the foreign spouse access into the country… they can’t settle down.

There’s no point banning the marriages per se because people will find a loophole. For example, an Islamic marriage (the same for most religions) is religious ceremony, not legal one.

 

[Ccfcisparks]

Co’mon now, use your noggin.

If you deny the foreign spouse access into the country… they can’t settle down.

There’s no point banning the marriages per se because people will find a loophole. For example, an Islamic marriage (the same for most religions) is religious ceremony, not legal one.

So all arranged marriages are between a UK based spouse, and a foreign based spouse? Sorry, I'm a bit lost.

 

[CCFCSteve]

There are all sorts of complexities here though.

A lot of funding I assume goes into training health professionals in this country - so others poaching them can spend more as the cost of training hasn’t been factored in.

It could I suppose be conceivable the uk offers doctors free training and if they leave abroad they then pay it back

This is what happens. Some Doctors/BMA seem to be the worst kind of capitalists in progressives clothing though. Their behaviour recently shows little regard for either the long term future of the nhs or patients in general. We need a tie in for doctors who are trained (at a significant cost to taxpayer) and in exchange we should ensure that there are sufficient specialist training places available for them - I bet we’re losing more doctors due to this, than the ‘exodus’ due to salaries. shambles !

Ps like the ‘not in my backyard’ hypocrisy of the Greens deputy leader (cloaked in the ‘not in army camp’ BS), check out the progressive BMA views of wanting to prioritise Uk docs over foreign doctors for specialist training places*. ‘Migrants fine in other professions, just not mine if they impact me’ ! Again, standard

*I agree with this approach by the way, mental if this wasn’t happening before just goes against the normal progressive, inclusive worldview presented by the BMA

 

[Grendel]

Can u share the post, despite this being silly whataboutism

Is this a factually accurate statement?

" anyone who supports Reform or the Tories right now is a clear racist, if the right ever gets a normal party back people who support that might not be. They could be greedy, or stupid. There are lots of reasons to be right wing. But right now there’s only one and it’s because you don’t like brown foreigners (not the Europeans, “you’re on of the good ones” (white))"

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

The quote was 'among the refugees are...' which is true. The percentage will not be super high I grant, but it's not wrong to point it out when some people are busy tarring every asylum seeker with the same brush.

Your other points conflict with the refugee convention which we've discussed before so won't go over old ground on that one.

You keep going back to the conventions. They’re not legally binding so if we have to suspend/withdraw from them, that’s what we need to do.

In any case, most of the points do not contravene these conventions. What do you have in mind when you made this point?

Australia has signed the 1951 refugee convention and processes asylum claims in 3rd countries and turns back the boats.

On the quote, it’s not verified. The person quoted could’ve said there's Premiership footballers amongst them… doesn’t make it true.

So all arranged marriages are between a UK based spouse, and a foreign based spouse? Sorry, I'm a bit lost.

Not necessarily. It can be UK-UK marriage or a UK-foreign born spouse. I don’t think a ‘ban’ is practical per se (@Grendel can argue those merits). However:

In specific relation to my point about what happens in Bradford, there is a practice of marrying a woman from their country of origin (particularly in the Pakistani and Bangladeshi communities). Therefore, if you deny the visas of the foreign-born spouse, they cannot settle in the UK.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

There are all sorts of complexities here though.

A lot of funding I assume goes into training health professionals in this country - so others poaching them can spend more as the cost of training hasn’t been factored in.

It could I suppose be conceivable the uk offers doctors free training and if they leave abroad they then pay it back

Sorry, don't people have to pay tuition fees for degrees in medicine? Or do you mean training after that?

 

[Grendel]

Sorry, don't people have to pay tuition fees for degrees in medicine? Or do you mean training after that?

I am saying that those going to Australia are being poached and no money has been spent by that Government in training them at all. So clearly they can spend a fair bit on attracting fully trained Doctors on high salaries

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

You keep going back to the conventions. They’re not legally binding so if we have to suspend/withdraw from them, that’s what we need to do.

In any case, most of the points do not contravene these conventions. What do you have in mind when you made this point?

Australia has signed the 1951 refugee convention and processes asylum claims in 3rd countries and turns back the boats.

On the quote, it’s not verified. The person quoted could’ve said there's Premiership footballers amongst them… doesn’t make it true.

No doctors, engineers, or journalists out of over 100,000 people? Hmmm. But OK.

I made the point as you suggested discriminating based on skills/earnings which I don't think is permitted by the convention.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

No doctors, engineers, or journalists out of over 100,000 people? Hmmm. But OK.

I made the point as you suggested discriminating based on skills/earnings which I don't think is permitted by the convention.

That isn’t what I said. They said there were those profession on their specific boat. The way this issue is presented, it’s made out that there are doctors and engineers on every small boat. Hence, that’s where the jeer comes from.

Before everyone could see small boats coming and going on a daily basis, the narrative was ‘what about the women and children?’ Which is fair until we started counting and it turns out 70-80% of small boat migrants are you men.

I’m not sure that’s not the case. The government has already set out a framework of how it currently prioritises asylum claims.

Asylum decision making prioritisation (accessible)

www.gov.uk

 

[PVA]

ok

Grooming gang convictions '84% Asian', say researchers

A think-tank report finds there is a demographic link to those who sexually exploit children in grooming gangs.

news.sky.com

In December 2017, Quilliam released a report entitled "Group Based Child Sexual Exploitation – Dissecting Grooming Gangs", concluding that 84% of offenders were of South Asian heritage.[41] This report was fiercely criticised for its poor methodology by Ella Cockbain and Waqas Tufail, in their paper "Failing victims, fuelling hate: challenging the harms of the 'Muslim grooming gangs' narrative" which was published in January 2020.[42][43] In December that year, a further report by the Home Office was released, showing that the majority of CSE gangs were, in fact, composed of white men.[44][45]

Research has found that group-based child sexual exploitation offenders are most commonly white. Some studies suggest an overrepresentation of black and Asian offenders relative to the demographics of national populations. However, it is not possible to conclude that this is representative of all group-based CSE offending.
– Home Office[45]

Writing in The Guardian, Cockbain and Tufail wrote of the report that "The two-year study by the Home Office makes very clear that there are no grounds for asserting that Muslim or Pakistani-heritage men are disproportionately engaged in such crimes, and, citing our research, it confirmed the unreliability of the Quilliam claim".[46]

 

[SBT]

I didn’t say majority I said a large proportion are racist and view white women as inferior. I stand by that.

What proportion specifically? Or is “large” as specific as we’re going to get from you on this?