Do you want to discuss boring politics? (28 Viewers)

[SBT]

Sounds like an utterly awful trade off. From their perspective 5 years of work for a lifetime of leaching looks incredible.

Is there any evidence that people are even doing this?

Can’t tell if the shift from “Bloody immigrants never want to work” to “Bloody immigrants only want to work for five solid years” is a sign of progress, or a sign that it’s not actually about whether these people have jobs.

 

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[chiefdave]

This forum makes me laugh sometimes. A few pages back we were having a discussion about how the country is going downhill and one of the things that came up was piss poor wages leading to people who are qualified in certain things leaving the country to get better pay.

Move forward a few pages and its outrage at the idea anyone gets a payrise or we consider increasing minimum wage.

We've got to the point where posters who I think we would all say lean to the right are so close to joining the dots and taking a left wing stance

 

[SBT]

This forum makes me laugh sometimes. A few pages back we were having a discussion about how the country is going downhill and one of the things that came up was piss poor wages leading to people who are qualified in certain things leaving the country to get better pay.

Move forward a few pages and its outrage at the idea anyone gets a payrise or we consider increasing minimum wage.

We've got to the point where posters who I think we would all say lean to the right are so close to joining the dots and taking a left wing stance

Next week it’ll be back to ‘Why aren’t there enough doctors to get me a GP appointment’

 

[Grendel]

This forum makes me laugh sometimes. A few pages back we were having a discussion about how the country is going downhill and one of the things that came up was piss poor wages leading to people who are qualified in certain things leaving the country to get better pay.

Move forward a few pages and its outrage at the idea anyone gets a payrise or we consider increasing minimum wage.

We've got to the point where posters who I think we would all say lean to the right are so close to joining the dots and taking a left wing stance

Most quote the Australian system. If we adopted that people would be bleating they have to get private health cover for the best treatment

 

[chiefdave]

When people compare doctors starting salaries are they factoring in the cost of training. We're being told to ignore the likes of Australia and the US and instead compare with countries that pay new starters less.

But are the new starters in those countries starting with effectively an additional tax burden due to £50K+ in student loans, and its only as low as £50K if the only loans they have taken are for fees.

I would guess the reason people compare to Australia and the US are they are English speaking countries actively recruiting newly qualified staff from the UK.

The government regular throws out statements like 'we will recruit 10K more doctors', near impossible to do when the level of wages mean they are happy to leave to work in other countries for better pay & conditions.

 

[chiefdave]

For minimum wage work, you can literally get more living on benefits after tax. A minimum wage worker would be on about £22.5k after tax whereas UC with housing benefit and PIP would be £25k. Credit: Centre for Social Justice (CSJ). Faced with that decision, who wouldn’t live off the state?

How is this possible? My doctor recommended that I leave my job for health reasons. Essentially a quit your job or the stress will end up killing you conversation.

I looked into how much I could get. Being hugely optimistic about how a health assessment would go the total I would get came to £782.87 a month, although £289.13 of that would be via a government loan and not payable for the first 9 months.

That means for the first 9 months my total entitlement on this luxary benefits life would be £150 per month less than my housing costs alone, after 9 months I would have about £130 a month after housing costs, but be building debt to the government at a rate of £3.5K a year.

 

[shmmeee]

When people compare doctors starting salaries are they factoring in the cost of training. We're being told to ignore the likes of Australia and the US and instead compare with countries that pay new starters less.

But are the new starters in those countries starting with effectively an additional tax burden due to £50K+ in student loans, and its only as low as £50K if the only loans they have taken are for fees.

I would guess the reason people compare to Australia and the US are they are English speaking countries actively recruiting newly qualified staff from the UK.

The government regular throws out statements like 'we will recruit 10K more doctors', near impossible to do when the level of wages mean they are happy to leave to work in other countries for better pay & conditions.

This is interesting. It’s very different country by country. So here you can go straight onto a medicine degree from A-Levels it seems but in the states and some others you do medical school after your degree. Our normal degrees are a year shorter but medical degrees are longer than their med school. Then they go straight into residency but we have two years of foundational training first and their residency can be shorter.

All in most developed nations seem to take roughly 10-11 years all in.

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I think a key line there is that British doctors are respected worldwide. I imagine that it’s very easy to up and move to another country for good money. Then like you say the question of how we tax graduates and high earners compared to some countries.

Ultimately if we aren’t recruiting and retaining enough we need to offer more as it’s an international market. And we steal from poorer countries in the same way.

 

[skybluetony176]

British doctors lost overseas every year is typically between 4-5k. Main reason for leaving is pay and conditions. Average intake of foreign doctors every year is typically around 6K a year. Maybe we should start paying them better and improve their conditions, that way we may lose less doctors overseas and be less reliant on imported doctors. Might actually encourage more people to take it up as a profession.

Isn’t it funny also that commentators and people in general who are vocal against decent pay rises for doctors always seem to be the most vocal against immigration? Go figure.

 

[Nick]

How is this possible? My doctor recommended that I leave my job for health reasons. Essentially a quit your job or the stress will end up killing you conversation.

I looked into how much I could get. Being hugely optimistic about how a health assessment would go the total I would get came to £782.87 a month, although £289.13 of that would be via a government loan and not payable for the first 9 months.

That means for the first 9 months my total entitlement on this luxary benefits life would be £150 per month less than my housing costs alone, after 9 months I would have about £130 a month after housing costs, but be building debt to the government at a rate of £3.5K a year.

Guess he means this?

Unemployed on sickness benefits paid more than minimum wage workers

A Universal Credit claimant who is not working and claims housing payments and PIP for ill health will receive £25,000 next year, according to research

www.standard.co.uk

Not sure how viable.

 

[fernandopartridge]

This is interesting. It’s very different country by country. So here you can go straight onto a medicine degree from A-Levels it seems but in the states and some others you do medical school after your degree. Our normal degrees are a year shorter but medical degrees are longer than their med school. Then they go straight into residency but we have two years of foundational training first and their residency can be shorter.

All in most developed nations seem to take roughly 10-11 years all in.

IMG Secrets - We Help IMGs From Different Countries Succeed Faster in the USA & Canada

We Help IMGs From Different Countries Succeed Faster in the USA & Canada

www.imgsecrets.com

I think a key line there is that British doctors are respected worldwide. I imagine that it’s very easy to up and move to another country for good money. Then like you say the question of how we tax graduates and high earners compared to some countries.

Ultimately if we aren’t recruiting and retaining enough we need to offer more as it’s an international market. And we steal from poorer countries in the same way.

A woman I know has just done a degree in nursing, £70k debt. What sort of country are we living in really?

 

[Nick]

British doctors lost overseas every year is typically between 4-5k. Main reason for leaving is pay and conditions. Average intake of foreign doctors every year is typically around 6K a year. Maybe we should start paying them better and improve their conditions, that way we may lose less doctors overseas and be less reliant on imported doctors. Might actually encourage more people to take it up as a profession.

Isn’t it funny also that commentators and people in general who are vocal against decent pay rises for doctors always seem to be the most vocal against immigration? Go figure.

You do realise the difference between Doctors and Nurses coming to the UK to work and somebody with no intention to ever work and just sponge?

It's almost as if somebody could totally back the first bit but be against the second bit.

 

[fernandopartridge]

Guess he means this?

Unemployed on sickness benefits paid more than minimum wage workers

A Universal Credit claimant who is not working and claims housing payments and PIP for ill health will receive £25,000 next year, according to research

www.standard.co.uk

Not sure how viable.

Housing benefit bill is massive because the private rental sector is, housing benefit is acting as an indirect subsidy to all the parasite landlords

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

You can’t have your cake and eat it.

Either accept the salary is going to be lower until retirement or be willing to potentially opt out of that to get paid more month-to-month.

The way you and others talk about this is as if there is an endless money tree. How does this all get paid for?

Government debt interest already costs the treasury £100+ bn every year. The total bill for public sector pension liabilities is £2.6 trillion (direct from the treasury) and growing.

CEO's etc. (and top level civil servants) get high wages, massive pension contributions as well as stock options and numerous other perks and benefits.

Why should normal workers just getting by have to accept making their current situation even harder in exchange for a small amount in the future (which for all they know they may never see) when those at the top telling them it's unaffordable get all that and more?

 

[Nick]

A woman I know has just done a degree in nursing, £70k debt. What sort of country are we living in really?

I do think for jobs where you HAVE to have a degree it's madness.

While people are fresh from uni, let's say they are 24 / 25. Instead of the huge pension contribution can't the NHS just throw money at their debt instead or something like that?

 

[shmmeee]

Housing benefit bill is massive because the private rental sector is, housing benefit is acting as an indirect subsidy to all the parasite landlords

Same for someone working though TBF, which is the point.

Just to say (AI nonsense but I know the figures are roughly correct from other research)

 

[chiefdave]

Do you think train drivers on over 1k a week get paid enough? They don't think so. The next lot of threatened strikes will be in about 6 months.

When people talk about average train driver pay you have to factor in that you're talking about an industry which has built up an operational model entirely reliant on overtime.

There is a massive shortage of drivers. Anyone who uses the trains regularly will be able to tell you about cancellations due to there being no available driver.

But here's the problem. Being a train driver can't be that hard right? Well if you look into the training there's far more to it than you might expect, largely because drivers are responsible for a huge percentage of train safety checks. But if that doesn't put you off and you want to apply for a trainee driver place you're going to hit a problem, they are virtually non-existent.

TOCs don't want to pay the cost of training new drivers, so unless you have the money to put yourself through private training you're fucked. So we have a very limited number of new drivers coming into the industry while the older drivers are retiring. Therefore the pool of available staff are being asked to work additional hours, for which they are rightly paid, and people then complain that drivers are paid too much.

The proposed solution to this is not, as you may think, to recruit and train more drivers, its to expect existing drivers to accept new contracts that restrict the amount they are paid in overtime.

Also important when talking about potential rail strikes to distinguish between strikes purely over pay and strikes over proposals to reduce safety standards. The later is something we implemented in the past and led to an increase in 'incidents' so the idea we do it again under the guise of modernisation seems crazy.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I do think for jobs where you HAVE to have a degree it's madness.

While people are fresh from uni, let's say they are 24 / 25. Instead of the huge pension contribution can't the NHS just throw money at their debt instead or something like that?

Midwife and nurse training used to be paid for, don’t think it still is. I was also charged £9k to do teacher training despite having already had to do a degree to get on the course.

 

[rob9872]

I was also charged £9k to do teacher training despite having already had to do a degree to get on the course.

And now left the industry. I think you should be made to pay it back

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

And now left the industry. I think you should be made to pay it back

I paid it

 

[skybluetony176]

You do realise the difference between Doctors and Nurses coming to the UK to work and somebody with no intention to ever work and just sponge?

It's almost as if somebody could totally back the first bit but be against the second bit.

Aren’t immigrant spongers lower than the uk average for spongers?

Surely it depends on how you define sponging also. Immigrants on minimum wages doing the jobs we don’t want to may be in receipt of benefits to assist their housing costs for example. Are they spongers? Or is it just the price to pay to keep the country ticking over and everything working from social care to making sure that we can eat out once in a while?

 

[Nick]

Midwife and nurse training used to be paid for, don’t think it still is. I was also charged £9k to do teacher training despite having already had to do a degree to get on the course.

I think with things like midwives, the amount of money being wasted then why not cover the costs. Obviously condition it by saying if you do one to the private sector or abroad then you need to pay for the training.

If somebody is fresh from uni and they start a job and they are getting 20 odd percent pension contributions, what's to stop the NHS from saying they will give them 10 but the other 10 gets thrown at their student debt?

 

[Nick]

Aren’t immigrant spongers lower than the uk average for spongers?

Surely it depends on how you define sponging also. Immigrants on minimum wages doing the jobs we don’t want to may be in receipt of benefits to assist their housing costs for example. Are they spongers? Or is it just the price to pay to keep the country ticking over and everything working from social care to making sure that we can eat out once in a while?

As I have said many times, I'd happily ship british spongers off to Rwanda too and just have people here who want to graft (if they actually can).

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I think with things like midwives, the amount of money being wasted then why not cover the costs. Obviously condition it by saying if you do one to the private sector or abroad then you need to pay for the training.

If somebody is fresh from uni and they start a job and they are getting 20 odd percent pension contributions, what's to stop the NHS from saying they will give them 10 but the other 10 gets thrown at their student debt?

Sure, offer it to them. Personally
I would rather have the money built up for retirement.

 

[Nick]

Sure, offer it to them. Personally
I would rather have the money built up for retirement.

For midwives, nurses etc then let's face it their tuition fees are small change considering the bigger picture aren't they?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

For midwives, nurses etc then let's face it their tuition fees are small change considering the bigger picture aren't they?

I agree, so let’s pay it for them.

 

[skybluetony176]

As I have said many times, I'd happily ship british spongers off to Rwanda too and just have people here who want to graft (if they actually can).

Again, how are you defining spongers? About 30% of claimants are in work. About 40% of claimants are on disabilities. About 10% of claimants are short term claimants ie less than 3 months. Sure we all have a personal anecdote about someone who’s never worked but they are in a minority of claimants. There’s a difference between assistance and sponging. You seem incapable of understanding that.

 

[Nick]

Again, how are you defining spongers? About 30% of claimants are in work. About 40% of claimants are on disabilities. About 10% of claimants are short term claimants ie less than 3 months. Sure we all have a personal anecdote about someone who’s never worked but they are in a minority of claimants. There’s a difference between assistance and sponging. You seem incapable of understanding that.

It's probably why I used the term sponging....

I mean people who have no intention to ever work or clearly play the system.
People who fire out as many kids as they can with no thought on how they will pay for their upbringing.

2 examples.

 

[chiefdave]

Housing benefit bill is massive because the private rental sector is, housing benefit is acting as an indirect subsidy to all the parasite landlords

That's great if you're renting, although its capped isn't it and often below what you're actually paying in the real world. I don't exactly live in a mansion but the housing benefit cap would be about £400 a month less than rents round here.

And of course that assumes everyone who suddenly finds themselves out of work rents, if you own your own home and pay a mortgage you get pretty much fuck all.

Seems that the think tank piece has cherry picked a set of circumstances to ensure the benefits cap doesn't apply. Not sure how realistic that is.

 

[rob9872]

Again, how are you defining spongers? About 30% of claimants are in work. About 40% of claimants are on disabilities. About 10% of claimants are short term claimants ie less than 3 months. Sure we all have a personal anecdote about someone who’s never worked but they are in a minority of claimants. There’s a difference between assistance and sponging. You seem incapable of understanding that.

You know what he means.

There are lots of people playing the system. I know Public Sector workers who take huge advantage of the sick-pay scheme. They might not be claiming benefit to be in your figures, but are absolutely being paid by the general public to do nothing but sit on their lay asses at home. There are also plenty of scumbags who do claim with big TVs and iphones, down the pub, smoke but not feeding or clothing their kids adequately.

Part of the problem is they do nothing for their benefits and have no incentive to better themselves. If you can claim £200 for doing nothing, but can work a full week to come out with say £250 then who want's to do full-time for £50 extra? Make them earn the first part, cleaning the streets etc and then there's an incentive to better themselves. Currently they'd ather claim and do a bit of cash in hand to top it up.

 

[Nick]

You know what he means.

There are lots of people playing the system. I know Public Sector workers who take huge advantage of the sick-pay scheme. They might not be claiming benefit to be in your figures, but are absolutely being paid by the general public to do nothing but sit on their lay asses at home. There are also plenty of scumbags who do claim with big TVs and iphones, down the pub, smoke but not feeding or clothing their kids adequately.

Part of the problem is they do nothing for their benefits and have no incentive to better themselves. If you can claim £200 for doing nothing, but can work a full week to come out with say £250 then who want's to do full-time for £50 extra? Make them earn the first part, cleaning the streets etc and then there's an incentive to better themselves. Currently they'd ather claim and do a bit of cash in hand to top it up.

The issue is, some don't believe that there are people who rinse it / take the piss.

 

[chiefdave]

Make them earn the first part, cleaning the streets etc and then there's an incentive to better themselves. Currently they'd ather claim and do a bit of cash in hand to top it up.

We tried this a few years back, it was called work fare and it was a complete disaster. The end result was essentially big employers enrolled in the scheme replacing low paid staff with people on the work fare scheme knowing the government would pay them rather than the employer.

So it was replaced by help to work where people were made to do community work. It costs hundreds of millions and made fuck all difference to the number of people claiming benefits.

 

[rob9872]

We tried this a few years back, it was called work fare and it was a complete disaster. The end result was essentially big employers enrolled in the scheme replacing low paid staff with people on the work fare scheme knowing the government would pay them rather than the employer.

So it was replaced by help to work where people were made to do community work. It costs hundreds of millions and made fuck all difference to the number of people claiming benefits.

I wasn't aware of that, although why am I not surprised that some took advantage

It doesn't matter what the subject, some always will look for loopholes. I still think there must be a refined version that would be worth a revisit.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

You know what he means.

There are lots of people playing the system. I know Public Sector workers who take huge advantage of the sick-pay scheme. They might not be claiming benefit to be in your figures, but are absolutely being paid by the general public to do nothing but sit on their lay asses at home. There are also plenty of scumbags who do claim with big TVs and iphones, down the pub, smoke but not feeding or clothing their kids adequately.

Part of the problem is they do nothing for their benefits and have no incentive to better themselves. If you can claim £200 for doing nothing, but can work a full week to come out with say £250 then who want's to do full-time for £50 extra? Make them earn the first part, cleaning the streets etc and then there's an incentive to better themselves. Currently they'd ather claim and do a bit of cash in hand to top it up.

If you work and get paid for benefits, you're a part time government employee. The social safety net isn't supposed to be conditional, then again we had Tories in the last government suggesting pensioners should be put to work to keep getting their payments too.

 

[chiefdave]

I wasn't aware of that, although why am I not surprised that some took advantage

It doesn't matter what the subject, some always will look for loopholes. I still think there must be a refined version that would be worth a revisit.

the one group of benefits recipients we did do it for, and who it was a success for, was those with learning disabilities. So of course those schemes were scrapped.

 

[Nick]

If you work and get paid for benefits, you're a part time government employee. The social safety net isn't supposed to be conditional, then again we had Tories in the last government suggesting pensioners should be put to work to keep getting their payments too.

That's why he said:

Part of the problem is they do nothing for their benefits

Although let's face it, some people will make more if they choose to work the set number of hours to then maximise their benefit income. It isn't worth it to work full time.