Do you want to discuss boring politics? (18 Viewers)

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fernandopartridge

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
skybluetony176 said:
Stealing the headlines this morning. Emily Thornberry (who I personally don’t like in the least) has gone out this morning and made the right wing press’ response look ridiculous. And all she did was state the facts, the criminal justice system is broke and the Tories aren’t doing much to fix it. Like him or loath him Starmer does have the will and the know how to start repairing the damage 13 years of the Tories have done to it.
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Sentencing guidelines are not a symptom of the broken criminal justice system though are they
 
shmmeee

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
fernandopartridge said:
I don't think there is anything in sentencing guidelines that considers prison capacity?
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Not officially, no. But it’s on the mind of judges when they choose where in the range and the sentencing council when they decide. I mean if we’ve only got a 100 places we can only send the 100 worst criminals to jail.
 
fernandopartridge

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
shmmeee said:
Not officially, no. But it’s on the mind of judges when they choose where in the range and the sentencing council when they decide. I mean if we’ve only got a 100 places we can only send the 100 worst criminals to jail.
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OK, what's Labour's aim here? Commitment to more prison places?
 
skybluetony176

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
fernandopartridge said:
I don't think there is anything in sentencing guidelines that considers prison capacity?
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Judges and magistrates are allowed to suspend short sentences based on overcrowding in prisons. The get out being that there will be additional punishment placed on an offender who is prisoned in an over crowded, under resourced prison than there would be in a well resourced prison operating within the capacity it was designed to.
 
skybluetony176

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
fernandopartridge said:
Are you trying to argue that a functioning criminal justice system would not have sentencing guidelines?
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No. Sentencing guidelines are clearly part of a functioning criminal justice system. I’m saying that the remit of sentencing guidelines can be and are being determined by a failing criminal justice system and more. We have prisons full of people with mental health issues who were coping in society pre austerity because they had support systems in place which helped them with numerous mental health issues but addiction issues especially and assisted them in avoiding criminal behaviour and ending up in prison. In the meantime we have petty criminals getting suspended sentences whereas normally they would have gone into prison because the prisons are full. The NHS is also having to pick up the slack.
 
fernandopartridge

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
skybluetony176 said:
No. Sentencing guidelines are clearly part of a functioning criminal justice system. I’m saying that the remit of sentencing guidelines can be and are being determined by a failing criminal justice system and more. We have prisons full of people with mental health issues who were coping in society pre austerity because they had support systems in place which helped them with numerous mental health issues but addiction issues especially and assisted them in avoiding criminal behaviour and ending up in prison. In the meantime we have petty criminals getting suspended sentences whereas normally they would have gone into prison because the prisons are full. The NHS is also having to pick up the slack.
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I agree with most of what you've said tbqh - i don't think "build more prisons" is the answer
 
skybluetony176

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
fernandopartridge said:
I agree with most of what you've said tbqh - i don't think "build more prisons" is the answer
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Neither do I. The problems in the prisons is very clearly linked to austerity. It’s going to take at least 2 decades to get back to where we were pre austerity. The root of many issues in the prison system and NHS are linked to defunding social care in the community, from overcrowded prisons to bed blocking because there isn’t enough support in the community for people to go home, so they stay in hospitals.
 
S

SBT

Well-Known Member
The pub landlord sounds like a dribbling nutter. Quite why Braverman’s people decided to throw their lot in with him, I do not know.
 
Grendel

Grendel

Well-Known Member
Soon we will see another poster saying Rishi Sunak does not send Gollywog owners to jail. Labour will prosecute and imprison every golly owner. Good Golly.
 
Ian1779

Ian1779

Well-Known Member
Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
At times it sounds like you'd be almost gleeful if they didn't win the next election, epitomising the saying that we get so many right-wing governments because the left is too busy fighting itself.
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You think we should celebrate the bull shit he has spouted out here like he’s some kind of antidote to the Tory mess?
 
fernandopartridge

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
At times it sounds like you'd be almost gleeful if they didn't win the next election, epitomising the saying that we get so many right-wing governments because the left is too busy fighting itself.
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No, I find it utterly depressing that there is essentially not a hair's breadth between their positions on the things that matter to me. We get right wing governments because we put up with nonsense like this.
 
skybluetony176

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
With regards to NHS pay it’s pretty clear what either this government or the next should do. 1) restore their pay, 2) link it to MP’s pay so basically every time that MP’s vote themselves a pay rise NHS staff get the same percentage pay rise. They’re all civil servants at the end of the day and personally I value NHS staff more than I value politicians so it’s only fair and right that they get treated at least as equally as MP’s when it comes to pay rises. No MP currently has the right to go out and take the moral high ground on wages when their pay has increased 25% in the same period. MP’s were earning £65,738.00 a year in 2010, they now about to earn £86,584.00 a year. Not including their second “jobs”, consultancy fees, freebie’s, after dinner speaking fees, expenses and TV income of course. Not that NHS workers get spare time enough to take on a second job etc etc.

On that basis Starmer has got this wrong and I’m not sure why he’s so willingly got this wrong because public opinion does seem to be behind NHS workers and against the government’s stance.
 
fernandopartridge

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
skybluetony176 said:
With regards to NHS pay it’s pretty clear what either this government or the next should do. 1) restore their pay, 2) link it to MP’s pay so basically every time that MP’s vote themselves a pay rise NHS staff get the same percentage pay rise. They’re all civil servants at the end of the day and personally I value NHS staff more than I value politicians so it’s only fair and right that they get treated at least as equally as MP’s when it comes to pay rises. No MP currently has the right to go out and take the moral high ground on wages when their pay has increased 25% in the same period. MP’s were earning £65,738.00 a year in 2010, they now about to earn £86,584.00 a year. Not including their second “jobs”, consultancy fees, freebie’s, after dinner speaking fees, expenses and TV income of course. Not that NHS workers get spare time enough to take on a second job etc etc.

On that basis Starmer has got this wrong and I’m not sure why he’s so willingly got this wrong because public opinion does seem to be behind NHS workers and against the government’s stance.
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TBF MP wages have not kept pace with inflation either, using RPI as the measure they're way below what they should be. I'd be reluctant to tie pay rises to something in the gift of MPs to manipulate, it should be against one of the recognised inflation measures (albeit RPI isn't properly recognised any more). Post 2010 austerity has not been good for anybody.

That said, MPs have the benefit of having all of their work related expenses and even accommodation paid for, so difficult to compare:

1681376603823.png
 
Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Well-Known Member
skybluetony176 said:
With regards to NHS pay it’s pretty clear what either this government or the next should do. 1) restore their pay, 2) link it to MP’s pay so basically every time that MP’s vote themselves a pay rise NHS staff get the same percentage pay rise. They’re all civil servants at the end of the day and personally I value NHS staff more than I value politicians so it’s only fair and right that they get treated at least as equally as MP’s when it comes to pay rises. No MP currently has the right to go out and take the moral high ground on wages when their pay has increased 25% in the same period. MP’s were earning £65,738.00 a year in 2010, they now about to earn £86,584.00 a year. Not including their second “jobs”, consultancy fees, freebie’s, after dinner speaking fees, expenses and TV income of course. Not that NHS workers get spare time enough to take on a second job etc etc.

On that basis Starmer has got this wrong and I’m not sure why he’s so willingly got this wrong because public opinion does seem to be behind NHS workers and against the government’s stance.
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I've said before I'd say MP's pay rises should be capped at the lowest pay rise throughout the public sector.
 
Grendel

Grendel

Well-Known Member
Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
I've said before I'd say MP's pay rises should be capped at the lowest pay rise throughout the public sector.
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More Jacob Rees Moggs and Jeremy hunts then
 
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