Do you want to discuss boring politics?

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
Sep 27, 2008
27,819
16,198
413
Coventry
Look at the betting: the favourite isn't even an MP any more.
My Mum, who is a Daily Mail reading Thatcher loving lifelong Conservative voter, thinks Burnham is fantastic. Not entirely sure why to be honest.

Also thinks Sultana, who she didn't vote for, is the best MP she's ever had. Funny business politics.
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
Aug 2, 2013
27,032
11,564
313
You said over 50’s The Tonester says over 65’s - so ok that was nonsense then as it’s actually in a room of 10 only 2 are 50 plus

What about the other “fact” regarding right wing news items? Anything to support that at all?
I didn’t say anything. I quoted actual facts. The only age groups where users of Facebook is growing is in the older age groups, especially the over 65’s. That’s actual facts.
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
Aug 2, 2013
27,032
11,564
313
Nandy would be the best leader for Labour. A clean candidate who opposed Corbyn but remained loyal to traditional Labour values. The Labour Party would be mad to not vote her the next leader.
 

mrtrench

Well-Known Member
Aug 17, 2008
4,670
3,422
163
Somewhere between the waitress and her table.
I didn’t say anything. I quoted actual facts. The only age groups where users of Facebook is growing is in the older age groups, especially the over 65’s. That’s actual facts.
OK, I'll bite. This is for other people, not you Tony, as you'll continue arguing the toss no matter how indefensible your corner.

1. It is a fact that use of FB is growing in older age groups.
2. It is a fact that the majority of people on FB are younger.
3. Only one of those facts is relevant to Ian's original position, which was in response to a statement that Social Media is dominated by the young. It's the second fact. Growth rates are irrelevant for conversations about the present demographic.


Let me try with a completely different situation, as a metaphor.

Most cars on the road in the UK are powered by petrol or diesel. It's only a tiny proportion of all cars on the road that are electric.

However, the proportion of new cars that are electric being sold each year is growing very quickly: 3.2% of all new cars in 2019 up to 10.7% in 2020. That doesn't change the fact that there are still many many more cars on the road that are powered by petrol and diesel than are electric.

You wouldn't argue, for example, that car pollution is a thing of the past, because the proportion of electric cars being sold each year is rising. Similarly, you cannot argue that most people on FB are old, because that demographic is rising... when you've already been shown that still, in aggregate, it's dominated by the young.

Got it?

Here's an exercise to hone your new skill:

---

“Many organisations find it beneficial to employ students over the summer. Permanent staff often wish to take their own holidays over this period. Furthermore, it is not uncommon for companies to experience peak workloads in the summer and so require extra staff. Summer employment also attracts students who may return as well-qualified recruits to an organisation when they have completed their education. Ensuring that the students learn as much as possible about the organisation encourages interest in working on a permanent basis. Organisations pay students on a fixed rate without the usual entitlement to paid holidays or bonus schemes.”

Reply with True, False or Cannot say:

Statement 1: It is possible that permanent staff who are on holiday can have their work carried out by students.
Statement 2: Students in summer employment are given the same paid holiday benefit as permanent staff.
Statement 3: Students are subject to the organisation’s standard disciplinary and grievance procedures.
Statement 4: Some companies have more work to do in the summer when students are available for vacation work.

Good luck!
 

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
Sep 27, 2008
27,819
16,198
413
Coventry
The moderates will not walk away and neither will the outriders. The brand is too important - and they've both seen what happened to the Gang of Four and more recently the Change UK lot.
Think the opportunity for that type if split has passed. it needed the centrists on both the Conservative and Labour sides to join when the Change MPs left. With the situation with Corbyn along with the Johnson purge it was the perfect opportunity but the execution was shambolic and gave zero incentive for anyone else to join. But as their subsequent performance at the election showed FPTP isn't really a system that allows for three 'major' parties.

If the Labour vote does continue to decline there's no sign of any other party picking up the slack. Does anyone see a liberal surge to become a genuine contender because I certainly don't. I reckon if you stopped people in the street a decent percentage wouldn't even know who the current leader is.
 

mrtrench

Well-Known Member
Aug 17, 2008
4,670
3,422
163
Somewhere between the waitress and her table.
Think the opportunity for that type if split has passed. it needed the centrists on both the Conservative and Labour sides to join when the Change MPs left. With the situation with Corbyn along with the Johnson purge it was the perfect opportunity but the execution was shambolic and gave zero incentive for anyone else to join. But as their subsequent performance at the election showed FPTP isn't really a system that allows for three 'major' parties.

If the Labour vote does continue to decline there's no sign of any other party picking up the slack. Does anyone see a liberal surge to become a genuine contender because I certainly don't. I reckon if you stopped people in the street a decent percentage wouldn't even know who the current leader is.
I agree, I can't see the Lib Dems picking up the slack. It'll have to be a brand new party. Something similar to Macron in France (I know that hasn't panned out well for him in terms of popularity - but he still got elected).
 

PVA

Well-Known Member
Apr 22, 2011
5,293
3,674
113
All hail the Dear Leader.


"Boris Johnson’s government has appointed a known partisan to the BBC board, in an overt bid to politicise a governance body supposed to be free from political influence.

Robbie Gibb, a former aide to two Tory politicians – he served as Theresa May’s director of communications in No 10, and as chief of staff to former Tory shadow chancellor Francis Maude in the 1990s – has been made the board’s member of England. The role was previously filled by Ashley Steel, the former global head of transport for KPMG, whose political anonymity was typical for those on the BBC board. Gibb, by contrast, is a political appointee filling what has historically been an apolitical role."
 

RedSalmon

Well-Known Member
Mar 25, 2011
432
148
93
My Mum, who is a Daily Mail reading Thatcher loving lifelong Conservative voter, thinks Burnham is fantastic. Not entirely sure why to be honest.

Also thinks Sultana, who she didn't vote for, is the best MP she's ever had. Funny business politics.
A few years ago, just before the election that Miliband lost, both he and Burnham came along to where I worked and engaged in an open forum discussion. Everyone who was there afterwards agreed that Miliband was way out of his depth, but everyone who spoke to Burnham was very impressed with his understanding, communication and ability to engage with people. Got the opportunity to speak to him on a one to one basis (afterwards) and came away very impressed and have been surprised that he has not been seriously tipped to take charge of the Labour party.
 

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
Sep 27, 2008
27,819
16,198
413
Coventry
A good thread for those that want to see the wood from the trees:

What point is she trying to make there?

Looking at the previous election is looks like Brexit party votes were roughly 70% Labour voters, 30% Conservative. If they go back to the two main parties 80/20 or 70/30 in the Conservatives favour that's a huge Labour to Conservative swing over two elections isn't it?
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
Jul 11, 2011
30,988
22,315
313
Coventry, United Kingdom, United Kingdom
What point is she trying to make there?

Looking at the previous election is looks like Brexit party votes were roughly 70% Labour voters, 30% Conservative. If they go back to the two main parties 80/20 or 70/30 in the Conservatives favour that's a huge Labour to Conservative swing over two elections isn't it?
Yep. But the point is they were lost in 2015.
It’s nothing to do with the stories of the day, that was a Conservative seat years ago.
 

NorthernWisdom

Well-Known Member
Apr 23, 2013
25,003
15,321
413
I think I will give the lib dems my vote this Thursday.
Currently here I've had one Tory, and one TUSC leaflet - that's it. Given one of our councillors died, you'd think the mooted replacement would be doing some campaigning, at the very least!

As for the Police Commissioner, I have no clue who any of them are, or what they want to do.

How can I vote, if nobody wants to tell me what (and who!) I'm voting for! At least I got the booklet with the mayoral candidates, I suppose!
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
Jul 11, 2011
30,988
22,315
313
Coventry, United Kingdom, United Kingdom
Feel a bit silly voting in the locals when I’m moving out of the council area two days later.

Not voting Labour for WM Mayor until they give me a sensible candidate to vote for. Sick of the Midlands being the red headed stepchild of local areas.
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
Aug 2, 2013
27,032
11,564
313
OK, I'll bite. This is for other people, not you Tony, as you'll continue arguing the toss no matter how indefensible your corner.

1. It is a fact that use of FB is growing in older age groups.
2. It is a fact that the majority of people on FB are younger.
3. Only one of those facts is relevant to Ian's original position, which was in response to a statement that Social Media is dominated by the young. It's the second fact. Growth rates are irrelevant for conversations about the present demographic.


Let me try with a completely different situation, as a metaphor.

Most cars on the road in the UK are powered by petrol or diesel. It's only a tiny proportion of all cars on the road that are electric.

However, the proportion of new cars that are electric being sold each year is growing very quickly: 3.2% of all new cars in 2019 up to 10.7% in 2020. That doesn't change the fact that there are still many many more cars on the road that are powered by petrol and diesel than are electric.

You wouldn't argue, for example, that car pollution is a thing of the past, because the proportion of electric cars being sold each year is rising. Similarly, you cannot argue that most people on FB are old, because that demographic is rising... when you've already been shown that still, in aggregate, it's dominated by the young.

Got it?

Here's an exercise to hone your new skill:

---

“Many organisations find it beneficial to employ students over the summer. Permanent staff often wish to take their own holidays over this period. Furthermore, it is not uncommon for companies to experience peak workloads in the summer and so require extra staff. Summer employment also attracts students who may return as well-qualified recruits to an organisation when they have completed their education. Ensuring that the students learn as much as possible about the organisation encourages interest in working on a permanent basis. Organisations pay students on a fixed rate without the usual entitlement to paid holidays or bonus schemes.”

Reply with True, False or Cannot say:

Statement 1: It is possible that permanent staff who are on holiday can have their work carried out by students.
Statement 2: Students in summer employment are given the same paid holiday benefit as permanent staff.
Statement 3: Students are subject to the organisation’s standard disciplinary and grievance procedures.
Statement 4: Some companies have more work to do in the summer when students are available for vacation work.

Good luck!
I never said otherwise. I just pointed out that the demographics of Facebook users are changing. Which they are.
 
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clint van damme

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
24,102
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Sultana is the latest rumour for who they’re going to dredge up from the talent puddle to challenge Starmer. Which should tell you how serious any of this is.
Sultana has been impressive asa constituency MP, she shouldn't be considered as leader.

Burnham is the only viable candidate really. I don't like Reeves but think she's performed quite well when I essentially her.
 

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
24,102
26,270
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Nandy would be the best leader for Labour. A clean candidate who opposed Corbyn but remained loyal to traditional Labour values. The Labour Party would be mad to not vote her the next leader.
Any time I see her under a bit of pressure she looks like she's going to crumble.
 

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
24,102
26,270
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Currently here I've had one Tory, and one TUSC leaflet - that's it. Given one of our councillors died, you'd think the mooted replacement would be doing some campaigning, at the very least!

As for the Police Commissioner, I have no clue who any of them are, or what they want to do.

How can I vote, if nobody wants to tell me what (and who!) I'm voting for! At least I got the booklet with the mayoral candidates, I suppose!
I've been inundated and thrown everyone straight in the bin
 

PVA

Well-Known Member
Apr 22, 2011
5,293
3,674
113
Burnham would be a decent shout.

But I don't think it matters who the leader of the opposition is at the moment, the Tories are absolutely teflon with getting Brexit 'done' and the vaccine bounce. All the other shit they’re up to people either don't care about or are oblivious too.

I’m sure Starmer (or whoever the LOTO was) would love to come out on the attack and call Johnson a useless lazy fuckwit, we know that’s what he thinks of him, but it’s not what the public wants to hear right now. Criticising Johnson is tantamount to treason in the eyes of many.

Instead he just has to bide his time and play the long game. It makes him look weak or indecisive or ineffective but it’s his best bet. It’s too early to come out on the attack now, so far from the next election. Bide his time, wait for the inquiries into Covid/PPE/Corruption to come out, wait for the Tory infighting to start, and then go on the offensive.
 
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Ian1779

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2012
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You are probably right about the Tory Teflon effect at the moment. What Labour don’t appear to have done is give the electorate a reason to vote for them ‘other than not being Tory’ or ‘new management’ in an era where the current incumbent are pretty untouchable.
I think Starmer is being let down by a pretty atrocious strategy team currently. It’s no secret I am not a fan of his at all... but replacing him at this stage is of no use to anyone other than Johnson.
 
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Philosorapter

Well-Known Member
Aug 7, 2013
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...What Labour don’t appear to have done is give the electorate a reason to vote for them ‘other than not being Tory...
Absolutely correct.

Not a good enough reason in my book to vote Labour.

Of course, if you can't split the political parties on local public policy what reason can you give to vote Labour?
 
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SBAndy

Well-Known Member
Mar 20, 2011
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Burnham would be a decent shout.

But I don't think it matters who the leader of the opposition is at the moment, the Tories are absolutely teflon with getting Brexit 'done' and the vaccine bounce. All the other shit they’re up to people either don't care about or are oblivious too.

I’m sure Starmer (or whoever the LOTO was) would love to come out on the attack and call Johnson a useless lazy fuckwit, we know that’s what he thinks of him, but it’s not what the public wants to hear right now. Criticising Johnson is tantamount to treason in the eyes of many.

Instead he just has to bide his time and play the long game. It makes him look weak or indecisive or ineffective but it’s his best bet. It’s too early to come out on the attack now, so far from the next election. Bide his time, wait for the inquiries into Covid/PPE/Corruption to come out, wait for the Tory infighting to start, and then go on the offensive.
The danger, though, is that the Tories are already planning for their future without Boris at the helm. At that point all this PPE/cronyism/etc scandal can be palmed off on the previous incumbent and perpetuates this Teflon image. Sitting tight for the right time to attack will ultimately, I’m sure, result in that perfect time being missed.
 
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NorthernWisdom

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Apr 23, 2013
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The danger, though, is that the Tories are already planning for their future without Boris at the helm. At that point all this PPE/cronyism/etc scandal can be palmed off on the previous incumbent and perpetuates this Teflon image. Sitting tight for the right time to attack will ultimately, I’m sure, result in that perfect time being missed.
Maybe, but it's also true that it won't play well now. Cummings has tried to blow the bloody doors off, and all that's happened is that the government has become more popular!
 
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shmmeee

Well-Known Member
Jul 11, 2011
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The danger, though, is that the Tories are already planning for their future without Boris at the helm. At that point all this PPE/cronyism/etc scandal can be palmed off on the previous incumbent and perpetuates this Teflon image. Sitting tight for the right time to attack will ultimately, I’m sure, result in that perfect time being missed.
No opposition can do anything about a government delivering first on 50% of the populations main priority then on 100% of the nations top priority.

But equally no government has a run of luck like that. Can only brexit and vaccinate once, then you’ve actually got to run the country.

I suspect we’ll get shot of Johnson towards the end of the year then a GE with the new model in 2022.
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
Jul 11, 2011
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Is actually a small drop in right wing vote from 2019, won’t be reported as that though. “This trend that’s been happening for twenty years is definitely proof of my pet theory about the last year/month/day”.

Meanwhile the south is deserting the Tories as the educated millennials move out to the suburbs. Also been happening for 20 years.

Will be interesting to watch the strategies switch around when Labour realise they have to go full bore at economic centrists and rural voters.
 
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Evo1883

Well-Known Member
May 25, 2013
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These lot don't help our fight though, sorry Wisdom I'm done now Screenshot_20210504-171040_Chrome.jpg

People from hartlepool see things like this and think fuck you