"Shamima Begum knew what she was doing, being young is no defence"
"Ah so what if good old Nige called for Jews to be gassed, he was only young"
It’s not quite the same thing as someone going to the Middle East and joining ISIS, is it?
No one can actually prove what Farage said but we know Begum did what she did.
Dumb whataboutism, next.
It’s not quite the same thing as someone going to the Middle East and joining ISIS, is it?
No one can actually prove what Farage said but we know Begum did what she did.
Dumb whataboutism, next.
I mean it is the same thing if you are using age to defend one person's actions but not the other.
Either you know what you're doing when you're 15 or you don't.
I mean it is the same thing if you are using age to defend one person's actions but not the other.
Either you know what you're doing when you're 15 or you don't.
“I’m accused of saying some bad things at school”
“I felt nothing when the heads were cut off torture victims in front of me ”
Yep they are the same
Out of interest, what is the expiry date on something not mattering anymore?Really?! This is your argument?
Firstly, taking the allegations at face value, no one is really saying Farage didn’t know what he was doing. They just don’t think words said 50 years ago is relevant to today.
Secondly, joining a terrorist group and supporting their crimes is a crime and frankly, deserved to have their citizenship revoked. Disavow our way of life and our values, the door is there…
Really?! This is your argument?
Firstly, taking the allegations at face value, no one is really saying Farage didn’t know what he was doing. They just don’t think words said 50 years ago is relevant to today.
Secondly, joining a terrorist group and supporting their crimes is a crime and frankly, deserved to have their citizenship revoked. Disavow our way of life and our values, the door is there…
Out of interest, what is the expiry date on something not mattering anymore?
You and Grendel seem to be missing the point quite spectacularly.
I'm clearly not comparing their actions and I haven't said Begum shouldn't have citizenship revoked.
And yet still hold people accountable (quite rightly) for historic sexual abuseSeeing as Farage has been in the public eye for 10+ years now, the timing of these unverifiable allegations strikes me as suspicious to be honest.
The electorate writ large accepts that, even if the allegations are true, what people said 50-60 years ago as kids is not really relevant.
The establishment is shook and they’ll do the same exercise to Polanski if they’re worried about him and the greens.
You and Grendel seem to be missing the point quite spectacularly.
I'm clearly not comparing their actions and I haven't said Begum shouldn't have citizenship revoked.
No, I’m afraid the pot is calling the kettle black. Your initial input compared to Farage allegedly saying horrible things to Begum doing illegal things. This comparison was deliberate even if it was implicit.
Which is a stupid moral imposition because Farage didn’t do anything illegal (deeply unpleasant if proven) whereas Begum did.
And yet still hold people accountable (quite rightly) for historic sexual abuse
Why?What a strange reference
Again, I'm not comparing Farage's actions to Begums. You're the one doing that.
I’m asking the question in a general sense. After all, the things Jeremy Corbyn said in the 80s were used as sticks to beat him with but that was ages ago right? I say that as someone who washed his hands of Corbyn some time ago to be clear.Deeply misleading question because you’re presuming guilt. There’s a reason we assume innocence before guilt and in this case, the claims are unverifiable and the timing of the allegations are deeply suspicious. Why now rather than 2016
If someone accused you of racism without proof, should you punished? No.
In this case, even if the allegations could be proven, there’s an acknowledgement that what was said 50 years ago as a minor isn’t reflective of someone’s views today.
To make a more general point, should you, I or anyone be judged for things we said in the past or thought in decades to come? Even if those things that were acceptable today become dated in the future…
Why?
many people have to pay for actions and words that happened many years ago
The rest of farages words for me are they a criminal act and if so let’s hold him accountable if they’re just horrid well so be it
If it can be proven, then absolutely people should be punished. In this case, the fundamental issue at play here is that the allegations are unverifiable, at best it’s he said, she said.And yet still hold people accountable (quite rightly) for historic sexual abuse
If it can be proven, then absolutely people should be punished. In this case, the fundamental issue at play here is that the allegations are unverifiable, at best it’s he said, she said.
It’s also the case that immature teenagers probably say shit that’s deliberately hurtful rather than because that’s they actually believe. In any case, people’s views change too, for example, there was 2-3 ex-Trotskyists in the Coalition cabinet. Should that count against someone?
Before Uni, I’d probably call myself a Marxist, does that mean I carry the burden of supporting ideas that lead to the death of millions for the rest of my life? No.
To be clear, Corbyn’s words were on record and he was an MP rather than a schoolboy. In any case, I’m pretty sure he didn’t disavow what he said. In fact, Corbyn only ever tried justified what he said with regards to him meeting with the IRA and Hamas/Hezbollah.I’m asking the question in a general sense. After all, the things Jeremy Corbyn said in the 80s were used as sticks to beat him with but that was ages ago right? I say that as someone who washed his hands of Corbyn some time ago to be clear.
But it was ages ago right? Which brings me back to my question: how long after we say something does it no longer count?To be clear, Corbyn’s words were on record and he was an MP rather than a schoolboy. In any case, I’m pretty sure he didn’t disavow what he said. In fact, Corbyn only ever tried justified what he said with regards to him meeting with the IRA and Hamas/Hezbollah.
All we have on the Farage allegations is unverifiable claims from an ex-classmate and isn’t corroborated.
To be clear, Corbyn’s words were on record and he was an MP rather than a schoolboy. In any case, I’m pretty sure he didn’t disavow what he said. In fact, Corbyn only ever tried justified what he said with regards to him meeting with the IRA and Hamas/Hezbollah.
All we have on the Farage allegations is unverifiable claims from an ex-classmate and isn’t corroborated.
But it was ages ago right? Which brings me back to my question: how long after we say something does it no longer count?
But it was ages ago right? Which brings me back to my question: how long after we say something does it no longer count?
Really? He supports attacks on his own country’s soil?Corbyn has never changed his stance on the IRA
Really? He supports attacks on his own country’s soil?
It's somehow even funnier when you read it.Which blue cheese goes with Port?
Red Leicester
It's somehow even funnier when you read it.
It depends. Ultimately it depends on whether or not the subject still believes what they said. If they still believe ‘x, y or z’, there is no ‘time limit’.But it was ages ago right? Which brings me back to my question: how long after we say something does it no longer count?
Our response to any allegation should be to treat it as sincere unless or until evidence comes forward that it isn’t.It depends. Ultimately it depends on whether or not the subject still believes what they said. If they still believe ‘x, y or z’, there is no ‘time limit’.
Suppose someone said a racist thing as “a joke”, it clearly isn’t acceptable behaviour but if someone repents, they should be forgiven. If they continue to express such views into the future, then that’s clearly a different matter.
Take Corbyn for example, he’s never actually rowed back on anything he said and all he did was try to justify it and the public ultimately rejected him.
Back to Farage, it’s clear he isn’t a neo-Nazi so even assuming he said what’s been alleged, it’s fair to say he no longer believes those views. Frankly, if he did say those things, it was probably more vicious bullying from a cruel schoolboy than espousing a neo-Nazi worldview.
In any case, it’s not been proven he’s said what’s been alleged and frankly, the nature of the allegations and timing seem to be suspicious.
Our response to any allegation should be to treat it as sincere unless or until evidence comes forward that it isn’t.
It is, but I’ve seen a number of comments now that the timing of these allegations alone is enough to say they’re not true or suspiciously motivated. We have seen many instances now where claims are made a long time after the alleged incidents.The old adage is ‘innocent until proven guilty’, is it not?
By all means, take the allegation seriously but the onus is to provide proof that the alleged incident(s) took place.
In any case, what someone says as a child or young adult generally isn’t reflective of what they think as an adult.
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