Do you want to discuss boring politics? (26 Viewers)

[Grendel]

"Shamima Begum knew what she was doing, being young is no defence"

"Ah so what if good old Nige called for Jews to be gassed, he was only young"

I was referring to Owen Jones? Not sure what Begum has to do with it?

 

---

[PVA]

It’s not quite the same thing as someone going to the Middle East and joining ISIS, is it?

No one can actually prove what Farage said but we know Begum did what she did.

Dumb whataboutism, next.

I mean it is the same thing if you are using age to defend one person's actions but not the other.

Either you know what you're doing when you're 15 or you don't.

 

[Grendel]

It’s not quite the same thing as someone going to the Middle East and joining ISIS, is it?

No one can actually prove what Farage said but we know Begum did what she did.

Dumb whataboutism, next.

I did cringe for him a bit to be honest

 

[Grendel]

I mean it is the same thing if you are using age to defend one person's actions but not the other.

Either you know what you're doing when you're 15 or you don't.

“I’m accused of saying some bad things at school”

“I felt nothing when the heads were cut off torture victims in front of me ”

Yep they are the same

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

I mean it is the same thing if you are using age to defend one person's actions but not the other.

Either you know what you're doing when you're 15 or you don't.

Really?! This is your argument?

Firstly, taking the allegations at face value, no one is really saying Farage didn’t know what he was doing. They just don’t think words said 50 years ago is relevant to today.

Secondly, joining a terrorist group and supporting their crimes is a crime and frankly, deserved to have their citizenship revoked. Disavow our way of life and our values, the door is there…

 

[PVA]

“I’m accused of saying some bad things at school”

“I felt nothing when the heads were cut off torture victims in front of me ”

Yep they are the same

"I think this person is responsible for their actions at 15"

"I think this person is not responsible for their actions at 15"

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Really?! This is your argument?

Firstly, taking the allegations at face value, no one is really saying Farage didn’t know what he was doing. They just don’t think words said 50 years ago is relevant to today.

Secondly, joining a terrorist group and supporting their crimes is a crime and frankly, deserved to have their citizenship revoked. Disavow our way of life and our values, the door is there…

Out of interest, what is the expiry date on something not mattering anymore?

 

[PVA]

Really?! This is your argument?

Firstly, taking the allegations at face value, no one is really saying Farage didn’t know what he was doing. They just don’t think words said 50 years ago is relevant to today.

Secondly, joining a terrorist group and supporting their crimes is a crime and frankly, deserved to have their citizenship revoked. Disavow our way of life and our values, the door is there…

You and Grendel seem to be missing the point quite spectacularly.

I'm clearly not comparing their actions and I haven't said Begum shouldn't have citizenship revoked.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Out of interest, what is the expiry date on something not mattering anymore?

Deeply misleading question because you’re presuming guilt. There’s a reason we assume innocence before guilt and in this case, the claims are unverifiable and the timing of the allegations are deeply suspicious. Why now rather than 2016

If someone accused you of racism without proof, should you punished? No.

In this case, even if the allegations could be proven, there’s an acknowledgement that what was said 50 years ago as a minor isn’t reflective of someone’s views today.

To make a more general point, should you, I or anyone be judged for things we said in the past or thought in decades to come? Even if those things that were acceptable today become dated in the future…

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

You and Grendel seem to be missing the point quite spectacularly.

I'm clearly not comparing their actions and I haven't said Begum shouldn't have citizenship revoked.

No, I’m afraid the pot is calling the kettle black. Your initial input compared to Farage allegedly saying horrible things to Begum doing illegal things. This comparison was deliberate even if it was implicit.

Which is a stupid moral imposition because Farage didn’t do anything illegal (deeply unpleasant if proven) whereas Begum did.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Seeing as Farage has been in the public eye for 10+ years now, the timing of these unverifiable allegations strikes me as suspicious to be honest.

The electorate writ large accepts that, even if the allegations are true, what people said 50-60 years ago as kids is not really relevant.

The establishment is shook and they’ll do the same exercise to Polanski if they’re worried about him and the greens.

And yet still hold people accountable (quite rightly) for historic sexual abuse

 

[Grendel]

You and Grendel seem to be missing the point quite spectacularly.

I'm clearly not comparing their actions and I haven't said Begum shouldn't have citizenship revoked.

The point is one person has alleged to say some nasty things with anecdotal evidence and no proof and the other admits her guilt?

Oh well we are clearly missing the point - I have constantly said Begum should not have her citizenship revoked

 

[PVA]

No, I’m afraid the pot is calling the kettle black. Your initial input compared to Farage allegedly saying horrible things to Begum doing illegal things. This comparison was deliberate even if it was implicit.

Which is a stupid moral imposition because Farage didn’t do anything illegal (deeply unpleasant if proven) whereas Begum did.

Again, I'm not comparing Farage's actions to Begums. You're the one doing that.

 

[Grendel]

And yet still hold people accountable (quite rightly) for historic sexual abuse

What a strange reference

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

What a strange reference

Why?
many people have to pay for actions and words that happened many years ago
The rest of farages words for me are they a criminal act and if so let’s hold him accountable if they’re just horrid well so be it

 

[Grendel]

Again, I'm not comparing Farage's actions to Begums. You're the one doing that.

One has not broken any laws and one has?

One has only anecdotal evidence and one hasn't?

This is mind boggling deflection even by your standards

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Deeply misleading question because you’re presuming guilt. There’s a reason we assume innocence before guilt and in this case, the claims are unverifiable and the timing of the allegations are deeply suspicious. Why now rather than 2016

If someone accused you of racism without proof, should you punished? No.

In this case, even if the allegations could be proven, there’s an acknowledgement that what was said 50 years ago as a minor isn’t reflective of someone’s views today.

To make a more general point, should you, I or anyone be judged for things we said in the past or thought in decades to come? Even if those things that were acceptable today become dated in the future…

I’m asking the question in a general sense. After all, the things Jeremy Corbyn said in the 80s were used as sticks to beat him with but that was ages ago right? I say that as someone who washed his hands of Corbyn some time ago to be clear.

 

[Grendel]

Why?
many people have to pay for actions and words that happened many years ago
The rest of farages words for me are they a criminal act and if so let’s hold him accountable if they’re just horrid well so be it

There is no evidence Farage said anything?

Owen Jones on the other hand....

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

And yet still hold people accountable (quite rightly) for historic sexual abuse

If it can be proven, then absolutely people should be punished. In this case, the fundamental issue at play here is that the allegations are unverifiable, at best it’s he said, she said.

It’s also the case that immature teenagers probably say shit that’s deliberately hurtful rather than because that’s they actually believe. In any case, people’s views change too, for example, there was 2-3 ex-Trotskyists in the Coalition cabinet. Should that count against someone?

Before Uni, I’d probably call myself a Marxist, does that mean I carry the burden of supporting ideas that lead to the death of millions for the rest of my life? No.

 

[Grendel]

If it can be proven, then absolutely people should be punished. In this case, the fundamental issue at play here is that the allegations are unverifiable, at best it’s he said, she said.

It’s also the case that immature teenagers probably say shit that’s deliberately hurtful rather than because that’s they actually believe. In any case, people’s views change too, for example, there was 2-3 ex-Trotskyists in the Coalition cabinet. Should that count against someone?

Before Uni, I’d probably call myself a Marxist, does that mean I carry the burden of supporting ideas that lead to the death of millions for the rest of my life? No.

The reason I quoted Owen Jones was that I saw that the weasel was saying age was no excuse for Farage and the mask has slipped.

It was revealed that Jones put in a quote as a young activist that the IRA should take full blown military action against the UK until itHe surrenders Northern Ireland. He denied it and that the source Guido Fawkes was a Far Right Nazi and would take legal action. Sadly the written transcript then was published.

Mr Jones said people do stupid things when they are young (he has since interviewed the IRA Brighton bomber Patrick Magee, attended many Sinn Fein events and mixed with Gerry Adams) and people should not be judged on words said when 15

Fawkes then pointed out he was 16. An age that Mr Jones believes people understand what they are saying and should therefore have the vote.

 

[wingy]

Traitor

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

I’m asking the question in a general sense. After all, the things Jeremy Corbyn said in the 80s were used as sticks to beat him with but that was ages ago right? I say that as someone who washed his hands of Corbyn some time ago to be clear.

To be clear, Corbyn’s words were on record and he was an MP rather than a schoolboy. In any case, I’m pretty sure he didn’t disavow what he said. In fact, Corbyn only ever tried justified what he said with regards to him meeting with the IRA and Hamas/Hezbollah.

All we have on the Farage allegations is unverifiable claims from an ex-classmate and isn’t corroborated.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

To be clear, Corbyn’s words were on record and he was an MP rather than a schoolboy. In any case, I’m pretty sure he didn’t disavow what he said. In fact, Corbyn only ever tried justified what he said with regards to him meeting with the IRA and Hamas/Hezbollah.

All we have on the Farage allegations is unverifiable claims from an ex-classmate and isn’t corroborated.

But it was ages ago right? Which brings me back to my question: how long after we say something does it no longer count?

 

[Grendel]

To be clear, Corbyn’s words were on record and he was an MP rather than a schoolboy. In any case, I’m pretty sure he didn’t disavow what he said. In fact, Corbyn only ever tried justified what he said with regards to him meeting with the IRA and Hamas/Hezbollah.

All we have on the Farage allegations is unverifiable claims from an ex-classmate and isn’t corroborated.

Corbyn was arrested for protesting at the inhumane treatment of the IRA murdering scumbag Patrick Magee

 

[Grendel]

But it was ages ago right? Which brings me back to my question: how long after we say something does it no longer count?

 

[Grendel]

But it was ages ago right? Which brings me back to my question: how long after we say something does it no longer count?

Corbyn has never changed his stance on the IRA

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Corbyn has never changed his stance on the IRA

Really? He supports attacks on his own country’s soil?

 

[Grendel]

Really? He supports attacks on his own country’s soil?

Can you show any change from the bombs and bullets speeches?

It’s also pretty daft to compare someone saying things a grown man - and an Mp - than those alleged as a schoolboy

 

[Grendel]

The other funny thing is the Tom Brown schooldays nonsense that the 80’s were anything but racist and misogynistic cess pits. What a load of bollocks

 

[SIR ERNIE]

Which blue cheese goes with Port?

Red Leicester

It's somehow even funnier when you read it.

 

[Grendel]

It's somehow even funnier when you read it.

Which woman won the Nobel Prize for Physics

Marie Antionette

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

But it was ages ago right? Which brings me back to my question: how long after we say something does it no longer count?

It depends. Ultimately it depends on whether or not the subject still believes what they said. If they still believe ‘x, y or z’, there is no ‘time limit’.

Suppose someone said a racist thing as “a joke”, it clearly isn’t acceptable behaviour but if someone repents, they should be forgiven. If they continue to express such views into the future, then that’s clearly a different matter.

Take Corbyn for example, he’s never actually rowed back on anything he said and all he did was try to justify it and the public ultimately rejected him.

Back to Farage, it’s clear he isn’t a neo-Nazi so even assuming he said what’s been alleged, it’s fair to say he no longer believes those views. Frankly, if he did say those things, it was probably more vicious bullying from a cruel schoolboy than espousing a neo-Nazi worldview.

In any case, it’s not been proven he’s said what’s been alleged and frankly, the nature of the allegations and timing seem to be suspicious.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

It depends. Ultimately it depends on whether or not the subject still believes what they said. If they still believe ‘x, y or z’, there is no ‘time limit’.

Suppose someone said a racist thing as “a joke”, it clearly isn’t acceptable behaviour but if someone repents, they should be forgiven. If they continue to express such views into the future, then that’s clearly a different matter.

Take Corbyn for example, he’s never actually rowed back on anything he said and all he did was try to justify it and the public ultimately rejected him.

Back to Farage, it’s clear he isn’t a neo-Nazi so even assuming he said what’s been alleged, it’s fair to say he no longer believes those views. Frankly, if he did say those things, it was probably more vicious bullying from a cruel schoolboy than espousing a neo-Nazi worldview.

In any case, it’s not been proven he’s said what’s been alleged and frankly, the nature of the allegations and timing seem to be suspicious.

Our response to any allegation should be to treat it as sincere unless or until evidence comes forward that it isn’t.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Our response to any allegation should be to treat it as sincere unless or until evidence comes forward that it isn’t.

The old adage is ‘innocent until proven guilty’, is it not?

By all means, take the allegation seriously but the onus is to provide proof that the alleged incident(s) took place.

In any case, what someone says as a child or young adult generally isn’t reflective of what they think as an adult.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

The old adage is ‘innocent until proven guilty’, is it not?

By all means, take the allegation seriously but the onus is to provide proof that the alleged incident(s) took place.

In any case, what someone says as a child or young adult generally isn’t reflective of what they think as an adult.

It is, but I’ve seen a number of comments now that the timing of these allegations alone is enough to say they’re not true or suspiciously motivated. We have seen many instances now where claims are made a long time after the alleged incidents.

People should feel secure in coming forward and equally those accused should then be allowed to defend themselves and the claims then proven or disproven either way. Farage being ‘one of the lads’ shouldn’t have an impact on that.